Move Master of Ghouls back to where it was before.....

[skaarrj]

As a frost DK, there is no reason to go beyond 3 points into Unholy in a DPS role or a PvP role.

In a DPS role you would see me go 17 in Blood to get the Crit, AP and Weapon Damage bonuses to my abilities. Unholy didn't offer me much, but the ghoul was the main reason why I would go unholy, besides picking up Necrosis would see benifit with Black Ice now, or the minor strength buff from ravenous dead. Corpse Explosion is too affected by Black Ice.

Problem with the unholy tree is that most of it heavily favors unholy, while it provides almost no benifits to frost. Frost is stuck with a blood-sub-spec. Blood can dip into either tree, and unholy can dip into either tree. But frost is stuck with Blood.

Give me a reason to go unholy and still be a worthy death-knight. Because right now, unholy does not provide enough benifit as blood does by far for the frost tree.

Liked the fact that the ghoul was accessable, it would of been great for pvp/pve dps rolls. Now that it's gone there's no reason for frost to go into unholy.

[aikouka]

EDIT: Adjusted the post since for that rare occasion, I actually just went straight to the forums rather than hitting up the front page when I posted this . The comments regarding it being more accessible have been removed, but the comments regarding sub-trees for Blood and Unholy are still applicable. Note that this is in reference to the build 9733 news post available here: http://www.mmo-champion.com/index.php?topic=46385.0

Blood can dip into either tree, and unholy can dip into either tree.

I don't see any reason why I'd waste points in Frost as a Blood Death Knight... maybe if you want 130 RP, but that's a measly two points in the first tier. An Unholy Death Knight might be willing to go for Black Ice (they did back in beta, but it was also 20% :P), I haven't really looked at the numbers yet, but last I knew, they also preferred Blood :P.

[Bullshifter]

That all sounds fine, but I don't see how the change affects you? It was moved up from 25 points required to 15 points required... made more accessible.

I don't see any reason why I'd waste points in Frost as a Blood Death Knight... maybe if you want 130 RP, but that's a measly two points in the first tier. An Unholy Death Knight might be willing to go for Black Ice (they did back in beta, but it was also 20% :P), I haven't really looked at the numbers yet, but last I knew, they also preferred Blood :P.

Like I said... more accessible....

The latest build moved it back to 25 pts required for the perma-ghoul.

[aikouka]

The latest build moved it back to 25 pts required for the perma-ghoul.

Yeah... just saw that . Also probably pushed Obliterate back to the forefront of FU damage for Blood, but I kinda didn't like using DS anyway.

[Loith]

Well these changes do suck, I was gonna run a 51/0/20 build come the patch but it was really attractive due to perma ghoul.

As for what aikouka said, i highly doubt OB going back the the best dps source for blood over DS due to the fact that Might of Mograine no longer efects OB.

I personaly Agree with you that I never Really liked DS. But now that imp blood pres is just lame I would rather just pick up Imp DS and Heal past any raid damage. HS-ing 4-6 times in a rotation is beyond sexy with the new bonus's they get from having your dots up. Im not gonna miss the pet as much as I would think seeing how now I can get 130RP over the pet and CE.

Still though, losing 15% overall damage on DS wont make up for the 45% crit damage you would lose using OB. But that's just my 2 Coppers, Give me back my perma pet dammit! :O

[Onohs]

I can see why they moved it back down though; at 20 points in, just about every DK would be rolling around with a ghoul for the free DPS, and honestly, we aren't really a pet class. Entitle everyone to a ghoul, and pretty soon everyone wants better ghouls with more skills, and expects to be a hunter or demo lock.

This way it ends up being a more exclusing unholy spec thing, or somethin gyou have to sacrifice some good tier talents to pick up in a hybrid build.

I honestly dont have a problem with the change.

[Loith]

Yeah, Like I said, im gonna be more hurt on the 15% loss to DS then the perma pet. Looks like now im gonna spec 51/2/18. Still looks sexy on dps though, the Extra RP will keep DRB out even longer.

[Offhand]

Yeah... just saw that . Also probably pushed Obliterate back to the forefront of FU damage for Blood, but I kinda didn't like using DS anyway.

I disagree. While DS may hit for less then oblit, you likely make up the damage loss by not having to spend 13 points into frost.

Being able to pick up night of the dead will mean we'll have ghoul out much more often (possibly even more then if we just had perma ghoul and no AoE avoidence).

[Devildrive]

I could be wrong but I think this means the ghoul will be better DPS. You'll be able to summon him every 1:30 and he'll have a lot of avoidance, which will be needed in Ulduar to keep the ghoul alive. Before, you could summon him every 3:00 AFTER he died and he would die to any sort of AoE.

Oh, it's also a Blood or Frost pvp nerf.

[CookieEater]

I'd actually prefer it if all Ghouls were permanent pets. We wield the might of the undeath, but can't keep a single Ghoul 'unliving' for over a minute, let alone command it...
A system like Hunters and Warlocks would be more preferrable to me. You get a pet that adds a little DPs and some utility, but is easy to kill and/or ignore unless you have put talents in the apropriate tree (Unholy in this case). Hell, those two classes even get to choose pets.

Seriously, even classes that get temporary summons get to command these (except Shaman Elementals, but those are kinda different and the Spirit Wolves from Enhancement are commandable).

[Keile]

Spirit Wolves from Enhancement are commandable).

And a 51 point talent, unlike the Ghoul which is baseline.

Blizzard wasnt even going to make the wolves commandable, and even then they had so many issues with it (because its two beings that are controlled via ONE bar), and nearly even took it out (the bar i mean).

[pharix]

I'm pretty sure the not pet ghouls don't even get the aoe avoidance :/

so that change was kinda dumb lol

[pranabowjake]

it's a big frost pvp nerf. not so much for blood now since blood will probably still do 45/0/26 for pvp after the DRW nerf. the sudden doom procs +30 sec cd ghoul are really nice with that spec. they have no runic dump but they have a constant slow, a perma pet and heavy burst with death coil. frost wouldnt have been hit by this as bad if they didnt nerf black ice to buff tundra stalker. although i can see a return of a "shadow-frost" that doesnt have garg because they will be able to make up for it with hungering cold, but over all this nerf just pigeon hole's dk's back into unholy for pvp. with the desecration buff and black ice buff i can see dk's sitting at a 0/17/54 for pvp now. the only hard question for that spec is what to use your glyphs for. ghoul is a given and i think dark death is required but can be replaced, it's a really hard call of diseases or scourge strike and with the number of disease dispelers in arenas these days i am leaning towards scourge strike

[pranabowjake]

although my friend just pointed something out. the ghoul will have aoe avoidance and be a 1 min 30 sec cd while lasting 1 min thus he will be down for 30 sec if he's not killed. although you cant control him he would be useful in a 0/54/17 build you just couldnt use the stun + hungering cold as easily now

[Loith]

Well, From a Blood dps perspective, I would perfer Runic Power Mastery over Night of the Dead. Im not sure if the pet would be more viable in a raid over the extra 30RP. I mean to say, it may not provide more dps but it lets you make sure you always have more roll over RP to keep the DS glyph working like all the time even after a DC rune dump. and lets not forget it should add an extra 3 seconds of DRB every 1.5 mins. all those extra DRB seconds add up, even if they nerfed its damage. (not really a nerf since the cut its CD in half)

[Defaith]

Dk's stop whining and l2p kk?

[Rhyce]

"QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ.."

You're being balanced; deal with it.

[Talamare]

the real QQ is coming from you 2 who are still whining that DK is imba



Now moving on, those notd affect the aoe avoidance of aotd?

[Hazaleema(bacon)]

I sorta wish they would just totally get rid of perma ghoul or make it baseline. I am guessing this is going to make many a dps DK spec Unholy if they want to do max dps..especially with DS nurf. sorry dps DKs

[Rhyce]

the real QQ is coming from you 2 who are still whining that DK is imba



Now moving on, those notd affect the aoe avoidance of aotd?

I am not "whining" that DKs are imbalanced. I am simply saying that you are a class and like all the others, are subject to changes. You will be tweaked and tuned until the player base stops their QQ or Blizzard sees fit. In your case, your damage and survivability is quite high.

Now moving on, please provide a valid argument as to why they shouldn't nerf DKs.