Move Master of Ghouls back to where it was before.....

[Talamare]

I never said they shouldnt nerf DK

I agree they should, but your QQ, about thier QQ is just causing more QQ in this QQ spam

Unless youre going to provide actual feedback on the move then dont post


Now, with just glyph of raise dead (no reagent) and ravenous str (ghoul buff) you can use your ghoul in just about every fight and AOTD will only have a 10min CD(useable pretty much every boss), and now your ghoul wont be "perma", but he will last a lot longer then your "perma" would have without aoe avoidance like it was before

[Endbringer]

Does notd affect voidzones?

If not, then on a fight like Kel'Thuzad, an non commandable ghoul would be pretty much toast.

[Drake]

Does notd affect voidzones?

If not, then on a fight like Kel'Thuzad, an non commandable ghoul would be pretty much toast.

Void zone on KT does 100k damage, notd reduce that by 70% then it is still 30k damage enough to blow most pet out of the water.

[Arisen]

Wow, just when you think you're ready for 3.1 a change like this blows all your plans up :P

I guess every DK was ready to spec ghoul pet as it was and i like how it will be kept unique to unholy.

Argh, back to the drawing board for 3.1 :

[Gwa]

ello all,

Just seen the changes to the talent trees.....
At first i was a bit upset after spending a big stack of DKP on blood gear for going 51/0/20, it looked like it was gonna be pretty uselss.....

HOWEVER,
Dont write off blood too soon imo....looking at it a bit more....this spec could be very viable indeed.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...0&version=9733

Yes theres no CD like DRW or Gargoyle, and missing 10% passive ArP, etc, but it may just work! U dont have to horde RP for DRW and gargoyle, so it can spam DC like crazy 100% of the time and keep UB up

EDITED to correct the link

[comablack]

ello all,

Just seen the changes to the talent trees.....
At first i was a bit upset after spending a big stack of DKP on blood gear for going 51/0/20, it looked like it was gonna be pretty uselss.....

HOWEVER,
Dont write off blood too soon imo....looking at it a bit more....this spec could be very viable indeed.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...0&version=9733

Yes theres no CD like DRW or Gargoyle, and missing 10% passive ArP, etc, but it may just work! U dont have to horde RP for DRW and gargoyle, so it can spam DC like crazy 100% of the time and keep UB up

EDITED to correct the link

lose 10% damage AND 10% armor pen? huge nerf to your dps for a small aoe some bonus ap and a "perm" ghoul

[Gwa]

well im pretty sure a permanent ghoul does more than 10% damage. I guess we have to w8 for PTR test results

[Gomexus]

well im pretty sure a permanent ghoul does more than 10% damage. I guess we have to w8 for PTR test results

A full buffed/talented/glyph'd ghoul can do upwards of 20% of your dps...but its also a pet...and even with notd it's still going to die...often. Sure there will be fights where it stays alive the whole time and does really good dps...but there will be other times...more important times...where it dies instantly and adds nothing.

Imo buff yourself first...pets second...if you have all of the talents to buff your personal dps and you have enough left to buff a pet...then by all means go for it.

Perma-Ghoul is meant for Unholy... it's a part of their dps that Blizzard has balanced everything else in the tree around...giving it to everyone makes Unholy look a little less attractive for dps.

[tvveeder]

A full buffed/talented/glyph'd ghoul can do upwards of 20% of your dps...but its also a pet...and even with notd it's still going to die...often. Sure there will be fights where it stays alive the whole time and does really good dps...but there will be other times...more important times...where it dies instantly and adds nothing.

Imo buff yourself first...pets second...if you have all of the talents to buff your personal dps and you have enough left to buff a pet...then by all means go for it.

Perma-Ghoul is meant for Unholy... it's a part of their dps that Blizzard has balanced everything else in the tree around...giving it to everyone makes Unholy look a little less attractive for dps.

Very true Gom... but the issue is that without a perma ghoul the other two specs on PTR now do not add up to unholy DPS wise. I'm not saying they are bad DPS because no logical DK DPS spec is bad, but unholy still has the edge due to this and to me I was happy with perma ghoul because it was a way to modify the other two talent trees DPS to normalize it with unholys... but also it didn't buff that tree through the roof to make it overpowered in other applications (such as PvP and arena, although I know ghoul is a nice buff for PvP and arena it's not as bad as increasing damage of abilities by a certain amount to make them hit ungodly hard). Not to mention many changes they have done to unholy have been buffs and makes deep unholy an attractive DPS option no questions asked, and IMO there is no way having perma ghoul for all specs made unholy DPS any less attractive. To me it just made other specs more attractive and gave them the ability to compete more. I'm curious to see where they take things now because I would say with frost changes the PTR numbers are now not much different than the live numbers (from my personal experience) and blood is great for survivability but the DPS of that tree will take a great hit. So my question is what are they going to do to compensate for blood? I hope they at least do something because it will definitely be the spec that is a step below the other two (more like a step below frost and 2 steps below unholy).

I've seen in other threads the potential for changing bloody vengeance from physical damage to physical and shadow damage increased, and personally I think they should just take the physical aspect off the ability and make it a flat 9% damage increase. Now what I'm saying may be too much but if that's the case the physical and shadow damage buff most certainly wouldn't be IMO. Sentiments?

[aikouka]

As for what aikouka said, i highly doubt OB going back the the best dps source for blood over DS due to the fact that Might of Mograine no longer efects OB.

See, I just don't picture Blizzard leaving Death Strike as being that powerful. The more powerful you make Death Strike, the more powerful you make its healing component. I've always thought that Blizzard would have a glyph for Death Strike that nerfed the healing component but raised the damage component.

I still think we're going to see DS nerfed because the self-healing will simply be too high in PVP (and in some cases, PVE as well).

I disagree. While DS may hit for less then oblit, you likely make up the damage loss by not having to spend 13 points into frost.

I use Obliterate now and have absolutely no points spent in Frost :P.

I've seen in other threads the potential for changing bloody vengeance from physical damage to physical and shadow damage increased, and personally I think they should just take the physical aspect off the ability and make it a flat 9% damage increase. Now what I'm saying may be too much but if that's the case the physical and shadow damage buff most certainly wouldn't be IMO. Sentiments?

That's kind of amusing in a way... because that's what it used to be back in beta. Blizzard removed it but I don't recall them ever giving a reason. For all we know, people would start making those crazy SS/BV builds :P.

[tvveeder]

That's kind of amusing in a way... because that's what it used to be back in beta. Blizzard removed it but I don't recall them ever giving a reason. For all we know, people would start making those crazy SS/BV builds .

I don't see how a SS build with that would be any different than a deep unholy. The only thing you would substitute is higher white damage with 3 stacks of bloody vengeance up. The 9% shadow damage buff to SS would be a lateral damage buff due to the loss of Rage of Rivendare. As a matter of fact ability damage across the board would be a lateral damage buff (really a 1% decrease with all stacks up) due to rage of Rivendare. So as I said the only buff of that build would be in white damage (or necrosis as well if you spec into Necrosis, in fact it would get double buffed with 9% melee increase and 9% shadow increase).

[Sinitar]

i swear dks will find any reason to cry about.Seriously,if you dodn't see those changes coming,then you were nothing more than a fotm reroll who wanted to faceroll every class.Plate class with tons of defense against casters and perma pet with a 3 sec stun doesn't seem right to me.Maybe there's still hope for some good pvp.

[tvveeder]

i swear dks will find any reason to cry about.Seriously,if you dodn't see those changes coming,then you were nothing more than a fotm reroll who wanted to faceroll every class.Plate class with tons of defense against casters and perma pet with a 3 sec stun doesn't seem right to me.Maybe there's still hope for some good pvp.

If you knew anything you would know it's not a QQ about wanting to be a face roll class, it's a matter of them nerfing the frost and blood trees and gave them the possibility of perma-ghoul to counteract that. Now they stripped that away and haven't done anything to put blood or frost in a good place. So it's not a QQ, it's a genuine concern amongst DK's from a end game dps standpoint who don't want to be pigeonholed into Unholy to do the highest DPS. If you can't understand that then you are just QQ'ing about PvP because you are lame and don't know how to kill a DK (when they have tons of vulnerabilities).

[Gomexus]

See, I just don't picture Blizzard leaving Death Strike as being that powerful. The more powerful you make Death Strike, the more powerful you make its healing component. I've always thought that Blizzard would have a glyph for Death Strike that nerfed the healing component but raised the damage component.

They really should do that.

If they want Blood to use DS as it seems from the recent changes to talents, then they should make sure DS is on par with Ob and SS...if it is too far behind Blood will just use Ob anyway...or Blood will just be further behind in dps than Frost/Unholy.

They are trying to force Blood into DS for PvE but they are in turn nerfing DS because of PvP. The glyph idea you mentioned would solve both. Get DS healing component where they want it to be for PvP...and then add a glyph to buff its dps for PvE while nerfing its healing. That way PvP'ers would have a DS that hits for less...but heals for more than the harder hitting...less healing PvE.

It doesn't even have to be a mathematically balanced %...just make it deal 20% more damage but heals for 50% less...its not like Blood Tanks or Dps are dependant on DS heals in PvE...sure they help...but neither of them should be dependant on the healing component...since obviously Frost and Unholy would be dependant on it as well but neither will be using it.

@tvveeder:

You're right I worded it wrong in my last post...it's not that Frost and Blood having perma-ghoul put them ahead of UH in terms of viable dps...it just made it so that UH didn't have as big of a lead as it does currently...so in essence it kinda balanced out the three...but it made UH less attractive than it is currently...not less attractive than Blood or Frost...if that makes sense lol.

Having played an Enhancement Shaman for several years I also completely agree with the sentiment of nerfs without compensation.

There was already a very small gap in DS-vs-Ob dmg for Blood Dps...this gap was usually ok due to Might of Mograine not affecting Ob...so Blood used DS and all was well. By nerfing DS they are putting its damage below Obliterate for a depp blood dps...the only thing keeping Deep Blood from using Obliterate instead of DS is Might of Mograine; as has been mentioned in this thread.

Like aikouka suggested and I expanded on, a stronger DS glyph could solve all of their issues. Increase its damage to Obliterate levels but decrease its healing.

Your idea about Bloody Vengeance is also interesting. One thing I was thinking was a change to not only help Dev's lessen their load...but also buff Frost/Blood dps to near UH levels would be to change Crypt Fever/Ebon Plaguebringer to count towards all DK's disease count.

That would help out the issue with multiple UH's overwriting each other's 3rd disease and technically nerfing the others dps...and it would also give Blood/Frost a 3rd disease to help boost their strikes by 10-13% or whatever the case may be.

It wouldn't be as broad of a dps increase as having BV affect all dmg...but it would certainly increase dps from Blood (since it is the more strike heavy build) and it would slightly increase Frost dps (considering more of their rotation is not based on disease modifiers like IT, FS, HB).

The only drawback this would have is that Blood/Frost dps would suffer without an UH DK to apply CF/EP. Since CF/EP are the only options for a 3rd disease atm its not as easy to have another class bring the buff (such as Enhancement being able to provide the same buff as Icy Talons...no other class could give Blood/Frost a 3rd disease).

In 25m it may not be much of an issue since there's usually enough room for 2 DK's be it 1dps 1tank or 2xdps or 2x tank. So for most 25m runs it could be worked around

This is a stretch...but it is something that bares stating. There could be some people who dislike this idea due to their disdain of UH. Having UH buff the other two trees could make people feel as if they have to respec into something they dislike...just to buff someone else. So all in all it may not be a great idea...but it is a possibility and could help solve some of the dps gap between Blood/Frost and UH...while also getting rid of the annoying dps decrease 2x UH DK's inevitably receive from each other.

[tvveeder]

Or something they could offer is a third disease for the other two specs that buff in their own right. For example a disease that increases bloods physical damage and a disease for frost that causes all single target frost abilities to have x% chance to automatically cast a second similar spell on that target for 50% damage and can't crit, both of those were just totally randomly made up right now. Or for blood you could have a third disease that leaches strength from the target to you for the duration of the disease being up and frost could have a disease that gives all all abilities an x% chance to cause frost bite causing y-z amount of damage. Now that would never happen because blizz Dev's would state that a third disease is played out, Unholy would cry because now they don't have something entirely special to them (outside of perma ghoul), and then it wouldn't make the unholy tree special. That would give all specs a third disease, thus evening out the strike damage a bit for all specs, and increasing damage slightly in their own right, but as I said something like that would never happen.

[Suikiele]

If you knew anything you would know it's not a QQ about wanting to be a face roll class, it's a matter of them nerfing the frost and blood trees and gave them the possibility of perma-ghoul to counteract that. Now they stripped that away and haven't done anything to put blood or frost in a good place. So it's not a QQ, it's a genuine concern amongst DK's from a end game dps standpoint who don't want to be pigeonholed into Unholy to do the highest DPS. If you can't understand that then you are just QQ'ing about PvP because you are lame and don't know how to kill a DK (when they have tons of vulnerabilities).

I'm going to have to agree with the guy who you were responding to: This entire thread reeks of wanting cake and eating it too. Along with photos of the cake.

How is being "pigeonholed into (read: one spec) to do the highest DPS" different from the majority of any other class? There are strengths and weaknesses for all, and the player has to make a decision which spec he likes the most, and which is most effective.

Basically, my point is that your complaints are identical to Frost mages, who whine they aren't as powerful to the same degree as Frostfire Bolt and Arcane mages, or even deep fire ones... All because they want their fireballs to be blue. So I'd suggest you sit down, stare at the corner, and eat your Unholy spec in silence.

[tvveeder]

I'm going to have to agree with the guy who you were responding to: This entire thread reeks of wanting cake and eating it too. Along with photos of the cake.

How is being "pigeonholed into (read: one spec) to do the highest DPS" different from the majority of any other class? There are strengths and weaknesses for all, and the player has to make a decision which spec he likes the most, and which is most effective.

Basically, my point is that your complaints are identical to Frost mages, who whine they aren't as powerful to the same degree as Frostfire Bolt and Arcane mages, or even deep fire ones... All because they want their fireballs to be blue. So I'd suggest you sit down, stare at the corner, and eat your Unholy spec in silence.

Nope, the one thing blizzard said with DK is they wanted all specs to be as viable DPS as any other spec. The other thing they want to do is make all other pure DPS classes to where all specs are as viable as others. You will have some gimmick specs that may come out supreme but will get nerfed when they are found. My point is your sarcastic comments are idiotic and go against what blizzard constantly says it wants to do. Is it so wrong to want a spec to be able to do close to as much as another spec? Frost mages may not be as powerful as the other two specs of mages but there are three things about frost mages...

One is they are amazing in PvP.
Two is they still can come close to the other two specs of mages... maybe just can't surpass them.
Three is that's one spec that doesn't equal up to the other two.

So frost mage is the only example you have right now? What about rogues? You mean to tell me a skilled combat rogue can't perform with a skilled assassination rogue or vice versa? How about a skill Sub rogue, you saying he can't compete with either of the two other specs? Every single rogue spec can put out DPS equivalent to the others if you know how to play and have the gear. The only hunter spec that can't keep up with the other two specs (from my understanding right now) is marks... and they are trying to make it work out with the other two without increasing it's PvP viability TOO much. It goes the same with Warlocks, they are trying to simplify affliction and make it more viable against short fights and trash, but it can put out as much as destruction (if not a little more in some cases), and the only spec that is behind is Demo but they are working to get it's DPS on par with the other specs. Hell they are even looking at specs like Prot warriors to find out how their Prot spec can be a viable source of DPS when they have to OT or are out of the tank rotation (not so much to rival the other dps specs, but to give it a viability). They are working on Arms warriors to bring their DPS on par with fury. Every single other class is being worked in ways to equalize specs and have it be about preference of play style and not one spec being superior. So you can sit there and be a sarcastic ass hole trolling forums saying that DK's are just crying, or you can look at it for what it's worth that we just want our specs we like to play to be just as viable as the other specs (or in this case spec). Especially me, I don't want it to be OP, I don't want it to be exceedingly good, I just want it to be as viable. So how about you go and be an ass hole in some other forum because you clearly don't understand that matter.

[aikouka]

But you know... the latest patch notes list one fix that I really, really like as a Blood DK:

Death Runes: Fixed a bug where it was possible when using two abilities with the same rune cost to not get correctly granted a second Death Rune when appropriate.

That was one of the most annoying bugs for me while raiding. I'd do my rotation properly and wonder why I have a rune that I cannot use. I use AGUF as my player frames, which sometimes doesn't signify runes as Death Runes properly, so I'd never truly know if AGUF was just displaying improperly or if the bug occurred.

I don't see how a SS build with that would be any different than a deep unholy. The only thing you would substitute is higher white damage with 3 stacks of bloody vengeance up. The 9% shadow damage buff to SS would be a lateral damage buff due to the loss of Rage of Rivendare. As a matter of fact ability damage across the board would be a lateral damage buff (really a 1% decrease with all stacks up) due to rage of Rivendare. So as I said the only buff of that build would be in white damage (or necrosis as well if you spec into Necrosis, in fact it would get double buffed with 9% melee increase and 9% shadow increase).

It's also kind of worthless since they put Shadow damage back into Black Ice (forgot about that)... since ya know... 10% more shadow damage all the time is better than 9% shadow damage that must be stacked :P. Especially since the worse one requires a much, much higher talent point investment (as you mentioned).

They really should do that.

If they want Blood to use DS as it seems from the recent changes to talents, then they should make sure DS is on par with Ob and SS...if it is too far behind Blood will just use Ob anyway...or Blood will just be further behind in dps than Frost/Unholy.

If only they would .

[Albert the fish]

personally i'm laughing my ass off

this change is just deepening the difference in play style between the 3 specs

if you'd like to be a sorcerous DK focusing on spell effects and your command of the undead in a sort of Teron Gorefiend style. Be Unholy

If you'd like to just beat the utter living shit out of things in a sort of Mograine style, be Blood.

If you'd like to balance magic and physical power and utilize control over your enemy's movements as well, in an Arthas playstyle, Frost is you.


the perma-ghoul isn't a right. it's a privilege granted to those that want it. personally it's not my playstyle and i hated the fact that up until this change i was forced to go into unholy subspec to make Frost worth it.

that being said, it'd be nice if the base tier unholy talents were made more appealing to deep frost to give us an option, blood or unholy. but the way it was before was bad because it mandated a serious playstyle change from non-pet class, to pet-class. just to do viable damage. buffing the base tier unholy talents to appeal to frost without overbuffing unholy might be tricky, but blizzard can figure it out.

[Gwa]

Albert the fish is obviously about 7 yrs old...

Anyway back to the main issue....
as someone said earlier, Blizzards main aim for DKs in 3.1 was to make all 3 specs viable raid dps...rather than jsut everyone running around as 2h unholy.
I thought they'd really managed it with Blood, but the latest changes have nerfed Blood back into the Stoneage....PTR reports as much as 30% loss in dps.
joy. GG Blizzard...who r they employing as DK developer, Mickey Mouse?

To all those about to scream 'QQ'...im not QQing...UNholy2h is still very powerful...even more so on PTR. Im only concerned about the ever-widening chasm between unholy and the other specs.