Poisons since 3.1

[Voij]

the newest spreadsheet on EJ has 18/51/2 evisc approximately 80dps higher then 18/51/2 envenom in BiS naxx gear.

You mean the one by Mavannas?

Tree Spec DPS Gear Notes Poisons
Combat 15/51/5 6573 5/5 T8 poison hit capped, AG gems WP/DP
Combat 7/51/13 6543 5/5 T8 poison hit capped, AG gems WP/DP
Combat 18/51/2 6524 5/5 T8 poison hit capped, AG gems WP/DP
Mutilate 51/13/7 6507 5/5 T8 poison hit capped, exp capped, AG gems IP/DP
vHaT 2c/s 8/20/43 7660 5/5 T8 poison hit capped, exp capped, AG gems WP/DP
vHaT with LR 2c/s 8/20/43 7726 5/5 T8 poison hit capped, exp capped, AG gems WP/DP
nvHaT 2c/s 23/5/43 7706 5/5 T8 poison hit capped, exp capped, AG gems IP/DP

I still don't see a Combat-Rogue with IP/DP there, if he confirms that IP/DP Envenom is far worse then the rest, then I'll change my sticky. (He didn't do it yet though, at least not in that thread.)

[elapadrinar]

The one you link doesnt specify envenom vs. eviscerate. Is that info somewhere?

I used the modified vuljin spreadsheet (http://rapidshare.com/files/21716485...duar_0.4.7.xls) that i downloaded and did myself. Its with the current gear im wearing, which is mostly best in slot. You can armory me.

18/51/2 envenom wp/dp 6166
18/51/2 eviscerate wp/dp 6245

[Voij]

Now I can see what you're getting at, let me change the color to make clear what was referring to what.

...you'd fail by not realising that a Combat-Rogue should run WP/DP or IP/DP, as 18/51/2 and use Envenom, now,

Edit: Hmm... can't seem to get that spreadsheet running with Evis, shows missing or wrong #VALUE (Dunno if it really translates to Value, it's #WERT in German >_<)

[elapadrinar]

go onto the cycles page. go down to evisc. click the first formula, press enter. then drag that across the column. the guy who made the sheet did so in open office and it screwed it up somehow.

[Talamare]

The one you link doesnt specify envenom vs. eviscerate. Is that info somewhere?

I used the modified vuljin spreadsheet (http://rapidshare.com/files/21716485...duar_0.4.7.xls) that i downloaded and did myself. Its with the current gear im wearing, which is mostly best in slot. You can armory me.

18/51/2 envenom wp/dp 6166
18/51/2 eviscerate wp/dp 6245

Can you run same numbers but with
18/51/2 envenom ip/dp
18/51/2 eviscerate ip/dp

Just for fun (and for the sakes of getting a baseline)

[Rotten]

The fact that you ran it with Wp/Dp instead of Ip/Dp is probly the main reason why its not comin out on top, cuz you arnt gettin the 75% extra chance to apply Ip for 1 sec with the Wp/Dp setup.

Just Noticed they removed Envenom glyph.. lame

[elapadrinar]

The fact that you ran it with Wp/Dp instead of Ip/Dp is probly the main reason why its not comin out on top, cuz you arnt gettin the 75% extra chance to apply Ip for 1 sec with the Wp/Dp setup.

Just Noticed they removed Envenom glyph.. lame

6112dps with ip/dp and envenom
6035dps with ip/dp and evisc

^^both 1-3% below wp/dp

[Talamare]

6112dps with ip/dp and envenom


18/51/2 envenom wp/dp 6166

I call shenanigans

If ip is doing less then wp with envenom, I call shenanigans

[Mortac]

Alright I have to jump in here to ask and try to clarify a couple of things. First off, with the 18/51/2 spec and the tests of Envenom vs Eviscerate. Was Glyph of Eviscerate being used? Considering the use of Envenom would otherwise free up a glyph slot since the Eviscerate glyph would no longer be needed, Envenom would appear better to me. In addition, using Envenom would mean you can skip Improved Eviscerate and get Ruthlessness instead. Anyone in-the-knows care to elaborate on these thoughts?

Secondly, did anyone compare 18/51/2 with 18/48/5? On paper it appears to me as if 5 points in Relentless Strikes would give more dps. This of course might depend on your crit % as well. Anyone that did the comparison?

I've been playing around with the talent calc and these were the two combat specs I ended up with. Apparently it works out well since it was widely discussed here as well. Just that I can't really make up my mind about the two.

EDIT: Came up with another spec now. Take a look at these, and which would give best dps?

1: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#f0eb0eZMgVo0cEoru0xRtb
2: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#f0eb0eZMgVo0cEoru0xRhx
3: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#f0eb0exZMgVo0cEoMu0xRZx

[Voij]

Alright I have to jump in here to ask and try to clarify a couple of things. First off, with the 18/51/2 spec and the tests of Envenom vs Eviscerate. Was Glyph of Eviscerate being used? Considering the use of Envenom would otherwise free up a glyph slot since the Eviscerate glyph would no longer be needed, Envenom would appear better to me. In addition, using Envenom would mean you can skip Improved Eviscerate and get Ruthlessness instead. Anyone in-the-knows care to elaborate on these thoughts?

For 18/51/2 take a look here:
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?rogu...0&version=9767
You can choose between AR, KS or TotT Glyphs.

Glyph of Eviscerate was never used, Imp. Eviscerate was never used.

Secondly, did anyone compare 18/51/2 with 18/48/5? On paper it appears to me as if 5 points in Relentless Strikes would give more dps. This of course might depend on your crit % as well. Anyone that did the comparison?

18/51/2 is better, no question here.

1: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#f0eb0eZMgVo0cEoru0xRtb
2: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#f0eb0eZMgVo0cEoru0xRhx
3: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#f0eb0exZMgVo0cEoMu0xRZx

Spec 1 has been known for a while, 2 fails, 3 fails bigtime. (Though I am curious how number 3 would do as a 3s/5e/5e spec... IP-procchance 97,5% on CG with Envenom-Buff active sounds mighty fine...)

[bbr]

Good job mate, Making a sticky out of this until and slightly after 3.1 atleast, until people stop asking.

They never will ^^

[Grindfreak]

They never will ^^

[Hhavok]

I hope this wasn't covered already. I tried to skim through most of the posts after the initial one so I wouldn't re-hash an already asked question. I have been running mutilate spec in arena with IP for MH and DP for OH as the guide says is usually optimal for dps in 3.1, but I'd really like to implement WP into my arena fights because I think the 50% heal nerf will help a great deal. Would it be too big of a hit on my poison dps to replace my MH instant poison with wound poison for arena? I'm currently using 1.8 spd daggers for both hands.

Edit: I just thought I should add that I have 3 points in vile poisons, and 3 points in improved poisons. If I did go with wp MH, would improved poison still be worth the points or better spent elsewhere?

[Voij]

I hope this wasn't covered already. I tried to skim through most of the posts after the initial one so I wouldn't re-hash an already asked question. I have been running mutilate spec in arena with IP for MH and DP for OH as the guide says is usually optimal for dps in 3.1, but I'd really like to implement WP into my arena fights because I think the 50% heal nerf will help a great deal. Would it be too big of a hit on my poison dps to replace my MH instant poison with wound poison for arena? I'm currently using 1.8 spd daggers for both hands.

Edit: I just thought I should add that I have 3 points in vile poisons, and 3 points in improved poisons. If I did go with wp MH, would improved poison still be worth the points or better spent elsewhere?

First things first: DPS has NOTHING to do with Arena/PvP. PvP is about burst, not maximizing your dps.

That aside, what I could see from your sig was that you're playing Mut/Prep and you're making a mistake with it.
Mut/Prep is more or less like this:
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?rogu...0&version=9901
The points in Vile Poisons might be better spend in Ruthlessness if you run Wound/Mindnumbing.
The points in Deadened Nerves and Find Weakness might be put in different combinations into Imp. Kidney Shot and Focussed Attacks. (5 points for 4 talents, choose however you want.)
Furthermore you might put the 3 points in Serrated Blades somewhere else, that's up to you though.

Generally speaking you'll do best if you run with Vile Poisons and Double-Wound... probably.

[Hhavok]

Wow, that's some great advice, and I appreciate the input. I will make the adjustment to my build. This is my armory (although I logged out in pve gear) http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...r=Uther&n=Shyv , and you're right that I'm running mut/prep for my build. I'll reallocate those improved poison points with your talent link as a guide, and give wp/wp a whirl.

[Pahus]

What Poisons to choose for 3.1?

Mutilate:
No questions here, always run Instant Poison on mainhand and Deadly Poison on offhand.

I'm sorry to bother the rogue-community with my stupidity and ignorance towards the rogue class, but there is a question regarding the poisons I'd like to ask.

Why is it that even though I read IP / DP is the optimal, I find my brother and I doing 100-150 more dps with poisons attached the other way around? I've tested this a few times pre-3.1, not sure how my brother uses them when he plays, but this occured to me while reading the thread. The weapons the rogue uses are SR and WD, and the spec is calculated to fit his gear the best.

fix'd numbers.

__________________________________________

After searching a bit more I found out it might have something to do with me not having Master Poisoner at that time, which leads me to another question; which one of Master Poisoner and TTT is a bigger boost of dps and why? Master Poisoner pretty much gives you 3% crit, and a buff to DP proc, but TTT gives 6% crit to your specials. Again sorry if this sounds stupid but I don't play a rogue myself, I merely go kick some dummy butt when I'm bored

[Voij]

I'm sorry to bother the rogue-community with my stupidity and ignorance towards the rogue class, but there is a question regarding the poisons I'd like to ask.

Why is it that even though I read IP / DP is the optimal, I find my brother and I doing 100-150 more dps with poisons attached the other way around? I've tested this a few times pre-3.1, not sure how my brother uses them when he plays, but this occured to me while reading the thread. The weapons the rogue uses are SR and WD, and the spec is calculated to fit his gear the best.

fix'd numbers.

__________________________________________

After searching a bit more I found out it might have something to do with me not having Master Poisoner at that time, which leads me to another question; which one of Master Poisoner and TTT is a bigger boost of dps and why? Master Poisoner pretty much gives you 3% crit, and a buff to DP proc, but TTT gives 6% crit to your specials. Again sorry if this sounds stupid but I don't play a rogue myself, I merely go kick some dummy butt when I'm bored

First part: Simply don't trust Recount/Ingame-Results. They might be wrong if you compare different bosses, don't have full buffs, other setups, fight a dummy, etc. pp
The reasons for IP/DP > DP/IP have been explained various times already, to shorten it: Procs from Finishers and DP always having a full-stack.

Second part: Iirc then TTT is still a little bit better than MP in a "perfect scenario", but I prefer MP for the Raidbuff and 'cause I always like to have a full DP-stack up.
Oh, and TTT is only on Mutilate/CP-generating abilities.

[Safiroth]

They never will ^^

i'm not sure about that thing. :P

[Hogima]

Nice post mate (: *Thumbs up*