We Restoration Druids have right to cloth gear... or?

[Kariin]

Best in slot means best in slot.

Frosted Adroit Handguards are bis for Fury Warriors.

Cincture of Polarity is by far bis for Moonkins.

Guild Leaders shouldn't restrict the gear choices of their raiders.

[Lark]

While both of these statements are true, if people stopped posting stuff like this what would the rest of us have to ridicule while we post? This thread just provided me with 10 minutes of enjoyment.

I assure you there would be infinite amounts of stupid crap either way, I'm just trying to point out to people that the answer is to move onto a guild where you're treated fairly, not complaining on the forums. I mean loot is a joke in this expansion and really care potato, but if you honestly give a damn about doing your best in raids then you should carry about loot going to the right places.

I've never even seen people in my guild complain about any non-weapon loot dropping or not dropping, or people taking it or whatever. Maybe it worries people less when they're not scrubs. Who knows.

[Jurik]

My point was that the only argument you considered against rolling on everything was the armor value, for which druids have talents to boost anyway (again, something of a pointless reason - if we did want armor then there's even more of a reason to go for our own armor class as the boost will be larger).

Even a standard distribution of armor classes in your guild will still end up with the situation I described. There is more caster leather per the number of druid caster specs than there is cloth for clothies, so if druids are rolling on cloth too the casters will end up starved with leather being DE'd (ignoring shammies / pallies, but the situation just gets worse if you consider them too).

DKP (or any other type of loot system) doesn't solve anything - you'll still end up with higher armor class items being DE'd while clothies are undergeared compared to the others.

The only problem with this argument is that it makes some assumptions about the generation rate of healer cloth / dps cloth and healer leather / dps leather.

Just taking for example ilvl 213 non-token non-pvp head pieces:
5 cloth headpieces, of which only 1 is definitely tuned for dps (hit rating), while the other 4 are reasonable for healers to wear. So 80% of cloth headpieces is rollable for priests.
4 leather headpieces, of which 2 are tuned for physical dps.

So if you are restricting trees to only roll on leather, they can only roll on 2/9 drops, where priests can roll on 4/9. (not to mention that the 2 spell leather headpieces have terrible itemization compared to Cowl of Vanity)

Doing the same analysis on body pieces again:
6 cloth body pieces, 2 of them with hit rating so excluded. Priests can roll on 4/10.
4 leather body pieces, 2 of them for physical dps. Trees can roll on 2/10.

Again, one of the cloth pieces is miles better in itemization than either the leather pieces.

Blizzard expects trees and moonkin to seek cloth items. Thus, there are more and better itemized cloth pieces. Shutting trees out because "they can wear leather" is just hamstringing progression for your resto druids.

[procne]

not letting druids bid on cloth items means that you keep in raid players which dont have chance, or are second in priority, to get best gear and therefore improve themselves. i understand it may seem unfair that druids may have more items to choose from. but thats what dkp is for. you pay as much as you think item is worth. if cloth item is small upgrade for druid then he wont bid much. if its big upgrade then he will bud much and why should he be disallowed? sure, it may lead to situation where cloth classes have to pay more for their gear in average than druids. but i think its less of a problem than limiting druids to leather only.

[Daez]

DKP (or any other type of loot system) doesn't solve anything - you'll still end up with higher armor class items being DE'd while clothies are undergeared compared to the others.

What you fail to take into account is there is NO guarantee that that clothie you just gave gear to over your druid that has raided with you for the last year because it was cloth is going to stay with your guild. That means the item is just dead to your raid. That druid that has been with you for a year has earned the right to roll on a cloth item over the priest that joined last week.

If the person isn't new they normally know how to grease the wheels to get people that they have raided with for a long time to pass the gear on if its bis to them.

[Degrador]

The only problem with this argument is that it makes some assumptions about the generation rate of healer cloth / dps cloth and healer leather / dps leather.

Yes, there was an assumption when I did the calcs a while ago as to the drop rates, but I'm sure if I went back and redid all the calcs and included drop % in them you'd still end up with much more demand per supply of cloth compared to that of the other armor classes.

Just taking for example ilvl 213 non-token non-pvp head pieces:
5 cloth headpieces, of which only 1 is definitely tuned for dps (hit rating), while the other 4 are reasonable for healers to wear. So 80% of cloth headpieces is rollable for priests.
4 leather headpieces, of which 2 are tuned for physical dps.

So if you are restricting trees to only roll on leather, they can only roll on 2/9 drops, where priests can roll on 4/9. (not to mention that the 2 spell leather headpieces have terrible itemization compared to Cowl of Vanity)

But how many people are rolling on those 5 items? There are 3 specs of mage, 3 specs of locks, and 3 specs of priests rolling on the cloth. Assuming a perfect raid distribution (which somehow ended up with 30 people in a 25 man raid, which is irrelevant for the sake of the statistics) you've got 9 people rolling those cloth items, and that's if you're restricting to armor class - if we include the druids it's 11 people. For the leather gear there's only 2 specs that need them. For the clothies that means they'd have a 5/11 chance assuming equal drop rates, where the druids have 2/2. This is what causes such high demand for cloth gear versus higher armor classes, and this is what will cause you to end up DEing higher armor class items while the clothies are starved.

Note that I ignored the mail & plate wearers above, but if you take them into account it just gets worse for the mail & plate gear.

What you fail to take into account is there is NO guarantee that that clothie you just gave gear to over your druid that has raided with you for the last year because it was cloth is going to stay with your guild. That means the item is just dead to your raid. That druid that has been with you for a year has earned the right to roll on a cloth item over the priest that joined last week.

That argument is purely one for whether or not you use DKP. It has nothing to do with even distribution of loot by restricting on armor class.

[Nabla]

I know as a paladin the first thing I look for is cloth with spirit on it. /sarcasm

Yes because those selfish paladins and shamans are chasing after that spirit gear. We can't get enough of it. I personally have 2000 spirit on my paladin and I never run out of mana. /sarcasm

That priest is supposed to gear up by getting more dkp, attending more raids, pulling more weight, and impressing more people than the druid does. If you are a good raider no one would dream of giving a bad raider gear priority over you.

So true. I mean, hell I know I don't want any of that plate on my paladin because it all doesn't have spirit. I know shamans don't want that mail because it doesn't have spirit either. That leather always gets ded because it just sucks though. There should just be tank gear and then cloth gear. Even melee dps should go after cloth.

Yes, I agree, they all want spirit too.

On a side note, if you are going to make clueless arguments like this to try to back your opinion then you should at least realize that NO shaman or paladin will ever want cloth gear. Paladins and Shamans both get some damn well itemized gear (with the exception of elemental shamans). The real issue isn't that druids are rolling on cloth it is that druid healers and priest healers need the exact same stats on their gear so when cloth has those stats and leather doesn't their is a problem with itemization.

You're the one making clueless argument... You totally missed the point. It's not about spirit or specific gear, it's just the concept that if a druid start rolling on cloth gear, overall it will take more time to stuff everyone in the raid because then you will not need the leather that dropped on the next boss for instance, and the cloth will just be fucked because he cannot use it.
It's a valid point but you don't want to discuss you just want to /sarcasm

[Daez]

you pay as much as you think item is worth. if cloth item is small upgrade for druid then he wont bid much.

The problem with this is you have people like me that will keep wearing a heroic blue if the item they are bidding on isn't best in slot for them. I know what best in slots are available to me, and those are the only items I ever actually go after. It would be nice if Blizzard would just dump the "variety" of non-best in slot items and have every boss drop best in slot items.

[Nabla]

Seriously I find that so obvious... how can there be any discussion ?

[Degrador]

The problem with this is you have people like me that will keep wearing a heroic blue if the item they are bidding on isn't best in slot for them. I know what best in slots are available to me, and those are the only items I ever actually go after. It would be nice if Blizzard would just dump the "variety" of non-best in slot items and have every boss drop best in slot items.

Then that's a fault of your loot system, not the way Blizzard organises loot drops. Seriously, if your loot system is such that people don't take upgrades then there's something wrong with it.

[Daez]

But how many people are rolling on those 5 items? There are 3 specs of mage, 3 specs of locks, and 3 specs of priests rolling on the cloth. Assuming a perfect raid distribution (which somehow ended up with 30 people in a 25 man raid, which is irrelevant for the sake of the statistics) you've got 9 people rolling those cloth items, and that's if you're restricting to armor class - if we include the druids it's 11 people. For the leather gear there's only 2 specs that need them. For the clothies that means they'd have a 5/11 chance assuming equal drop rates, where the druids have 2/2. This is what causes such high demand for cloth gear versus higher armor classes, and this is what will cause you to end up DEing higher armor class items while the clothies are starved.

For starters 30 people in a 25 man raid isn't irrelevant, its proof that your logic is flawed. Not to mention, the only cloth wearers that people really care about currently are priests and that is because they are a healer. NO ONE CARES ABOUT CLOTH DPS! Cloth dps normally does less damage than most of your melee and your hunters. They normally do less damage than your boomkin and elemental shaman if they are equal skilled. There is no real reason to ever have them in a raid. Its not dps that you are looking for when you fill a raid. DPS is easy to find. Good healers are not easy to find. That means good healers should get priority on loot to begin with.

[Daez]

Then that's a fault of your loot system, not the way Blizzard organises loot drops. Seriously, if your loot system is such that people don't take upgrades then there's something wrong with it.

Actually it is a Blizzard problem and the reason for that is that this content is so easy that I can get away with using that blue while waiting on best in slot. I don't need that second best in slot to get through the content that will get me the best in slot. Maybe that will change in Uludar, but seeing Blizzard has said people in 25 man Naxx gear will be able to clear Uludar25 (on normal mode) I highly doubt it.

[Xianti]

The original poster is a greedy faggot but I can't say it's surprising - druids are the most disgustingly spoiled class in the game with a massive sense of entitlement. Blizzard should just delete the entire goddamn overpowered abortion of a class, ban all the fuckwits who play it and be done with it. Or as a less extreme measure they could just itemise everything properly in the first place so there's no need for other classes to 'downgrade' and spare us this crap.

[Daez]

druids are the most disgustingly spoiled class in the game with a massive sense of entitlement.

That is so true. I mean I can totally see how the person demanding that they have exclusive access to cloth even though it is BIS for another class is the less greedy one that doesn't feel entitled at all. /sarcasm

Or as a less extreme measure they could just itemise everything properly in the first place so there's no need for other classes to 'downgrade' and spare us this crap.

I will actually agree with this.

[Unionflip]

Plenty of warriors using my awesome leather gear, if it helps them they have every right to it.

[Tablemaker]

Druids, Shaman and Paladins should be able to roll on Cloth Items if it is BiS to them so you can pigeon hole your Priest, totally fuck them over for your own greedy accord, and watch your raids run with poorly geared priests.

If you have a problem with your armour type sucking for your class... don't abuse your Priests over it. Your Warlocks or Mages. Go to the people who actually make the items.

[pukaboomkin]

NO ONE CARES ABOUT CLOTH DPS! Cloth dps normally does less damage than most of your melee and your hunters. They normally do less damage than your boomkin and elemental shaman if they are equal skilled.

Fail. Equally skilled mage (or warlock) > boomkin/eleshaman
Most mages or warlocks = hunter or rogue if played well.

Not sure what kind of guilds you've run with but I think you've got your facts mixed up.

Also, BiS is BiS.... anyone should be able to roll/bid/be awarded it because no matter who gets it, the raid will benefit. There are very few times where a Druid or Shaman will have a BiS cloth peice drop, get it, then have the next best leather item drop with no one to pick it up (because there will usually be another druid or shaman to pick it up). The only time sharding leather comes into play is when instances are on farm, and at that point who cares anyway? Leggings of the Wanton Spellcaster are BiS for most DPS casters and were obviously highly contended for that reason. Who said a little competition every hurt anyone.... legendary items anyone? While some items are great for both dps and healing, there is usually a stat that distinguishes them (hit, more haste or more crit -depending on the class/spec).

The real problem here is that most of you are playing wow just for loot, and it's people like you that have caused Naxx to be so fail just so you can get your epixxx. Stop the QQ, play the game and earn the right to your loot like everyone else.

[Jurik]

But how many people are rolling on those 5 items? There are 3 specs of mage, 3 specs of locks, and 3 specs of priests rolling on the cloth. Assuming a perfect raid distribution (which somehow ended up with 30 people in a 25 man raid, which is irrelevant for the sake of the statistics) you've got 9 people rolling those cloth items, and that's if you're restricting to armor class - if we include the druids it's 11 people. For the leather gear there's only 2 specs that need them. For the clothies that means they'd have a 5/11 chance assuming equal drop rates, where the druids have 2/2. This is what causes such high demand for cloth gear versus higher armor classes, and this is what will cause you to end up DEing higher armor class items while the clothies are starved.

At the same time, most of those specs would not be rolling on most cloth gear because they want hit rating, and spirit is at best suboptimal itemization for every single dps class, and absolutely useless for many. So again, you can't just make assumptions like this.

In an abundant world, those leather caster items should by all rights be DE'd. Take one look at the Vest of Vitality and tell me the itemization on it doesn't suck for moonkin.

The reality is that the best spirit-haste-healer items are all cloth. This is not because druid "doesn't need" the better items to compete, but rather if they were made to be leather, that priests would be at a long-term disadvantage. Refusing to let Trees compete for items like Leggings of Mortal Arrogance because Legguards of the Boneyard are 'good enough' is just shortsighted. Give BIS to the most deserving person, whether by loot council or DKP or by rolling it off.

[Degrador]

For starters 30 people in a 25 man raid isn't irrelevant, its proof that your logic is flawed.

No, it's not. There are 30 specs and I'm assuming an even distribution of them - that of itself is not flawed as there's not of a lot of statistics to go on otherwise, and even if there were they're not going to be so far out to disrupt the conclusion. Next as for 30 people in the raid, I am assuming that of the 30 specs, which ones you have is going to be random, which means that the likelihood of each spec being in the raid is equal, which means the math can equally be applied to whether you have 1 of each spec in the same raid or you apply it to an average of raids of 25 mans where the attendance is equal.

This is not flawed logic, it's simple statistics.

Not to mention, the only cloth wearers that people really care about currently are priests and that is because they are a healer. NO ONE CARES ABOUT CLOTH DPS!

And you say my logic is flawed?

That means good healers should get priority on loot to begin with.

I'm sure if you told your mages they weren't allowed to roll on Illustration of the Dragon Soul you'd get a lot more uproar than telling the druids they could only roll on leather.

[Degrador]

In an abundant world, those leather caster items should by all rights be DE'd.

I agree, however WoW is not a perfectly abundant world. I covered this more in the other thread, but it basically comes down to this situation:

In Ulduar you have a cloth item drop on a boss, followed by a leather item 99% as good on the next boss. If you allow anyone to roll on cloth, and the druid gets it, then the leather item gets DE'd. However if the cloth goes to a clothie, and the leather goes to the druid, the raid is much better off in this scenario than they are in the first.

Let me make it clear, I am not saying that you should restrict people to rolling on their own armor class. All I am saying is that if you do restrict people to their own armor class, you will likely end up with a better loot distribution, where the raid in general is better off, than if you let anyone roll on anything they can use.