3.1 DPS rotation / Ret skeleton tree

[Vazor]

Two things I wanted opinions on from you fellow ret paladins, paladins in general, and other knowledgeable people.

First, since exorcism is being introduced into our spell rotation, judgements are being made super low in damage compared to the seal damage, and crusader strike and divine storm are getting buffed in sheer weapon damage percentage, what would a good rotation be? Currently with the "first-come-first-serve" (meaning you hit whatever is up first from CD, altho focusing on the highest dps spell as priority if several come up at the same time), it goes:

Judgement > Hammer of Wrath when it comes up > Crusader Strike > Divine Storm > Exorcism if possible > Consecrate > Holy Wrath if possible

I got this from Elitist Jerks, I didnt make that rotation up, but it works. So, any thoughts on what a proper 3.1 rotation will become with the changed? MY personal thoughts might be thus:

Hammer of Wrath when it comes up > Crusader Strike > Judgement > Exorcism (pure holy damage when glyphed, talented, and with 2 piece bonus will hit like a truck) > Divine Storm > Consecration > Holy Wrath if possible

The second thing I was wondering is, why no love for pallies Blizzard? A favorite pasttime of mine is playing with all 10 classes specs and talent trees on the ptr and regular talent tree websites. I notice that paladins are the only class that have a lack of talents, mainly in ret, we have 66 talent points, while other classes have 77 at average, and it wouldnt be such a BAD thing, if we had more than 1 dps spec as paladin we could invest points in.

Take a mage, an arcane mage can throw some points in fire, and then spec down frost for Icy Veins. Rogues spec assassination, part combat, and part sub spec to get the good dps talents, nothing goes wasted in pve combat. Shamans can spec enhance and elemental to grab beginning things that help them. Warriors I am not at all knowledgeable about but they also have 2 dps specs. I am guessing shadow priests are probably in the same boat as ret paladins, but they probably have at least 77ish talents down shadow to choose from!

A few talents down ret are 5 points to get 5% parry chance, for prot paladins, we trade prot for the 15% strength 5 points, there ya go, that's the only thing we take from prot/holy that helps our dps (holy has potential with the bonus seal/judgement damage and exorcism cooldown, but so far no go from Blizzard). There are PVP things down ret we dont NEED for raiding that I will end up getting anyway, I wont even need to dual spec for ret pvp/pve, cuz one spec will get it all if i dont go 40 sec stun spec. 2 points vindication (20% stat reduction) is purely pvp, bosses arent that gullible. 2 points to pop out of stuns with hand of freedom, not too useful in boss fights, wouldnt work anyway I am sure, if we did get randomly stunned in a boss fight. Seal of command and repentance I grab anyway for their other uses, but dont help pve at all, just purely pvp. 2 points to get 15% run speed/50% less disarm duration is for pvp as well, and that pretty much sums up the pvp points I get that I dont need, although the 15% run speed is nice for pve, so I can forgive that talent seriously!

My arguement here, is that ret is starved for good talents to invest points into. We have no options down prot or holy unless blizzard moves some down the trees. It doesn't help that Blizzard keeps removing the talents we DO have, taking like 3 talents a week, until we will have to spec holy to dps (since holy are getting nice shockadin dps boosts <_< ). Also ret paladins are probably the ONLY class that doesn't have a dps spec capable of getting even 1% bonus critical damage, and with the nerf to judgements that would seriously make for a good talent now, since our burst wouldn't go up too high, especially nerfing the bonus crit we got for Judgements down ret, in pvp we would not reign too supreme. Other things that could be added could be expertise and/or hit rating, haste was abused in ret pally t7.5 and t7, hit and expertise had to be added with off-set pieces (the plate chest with 100 hit and 59 expertise or whatnot was a godsend to still keep my 4 piece set bonus).

Most plate classes have armored to the teeth, giving attack power for armor rating; it's so rediculous, when a ret pally looks at a hunter's talents to see they get like 10% base crit, many ability-specific crit %, like 30% bonus crit damage, hit rating, and like enhance shamans get 100% of their intellect = AP, since their gear actually HAS intellect on it. Why does Blizzard give enhance shamans our judgement of the wise, when they have shamanistic rage, which is full mana every 2 mins, as compared to divine plea, which is full mana every 4 minutes, and they have water shield if they really want to put it up, as well as THEY dont have 5700ish base mana unbuffed, they have 12k or so, right....

I do QQ quite a bit, but some things need QQing over, but anyway, forget my QQ, let's hear everyone's opinions on some new talents Blizzard could implement that aren't too rediculous, your own QQ on the skeleton tree, and don't forget about the 3.1 dps rotation ideas.

-Vazor-

[b37x]

Personally, I prefer being able to fill out a tree and having points left over. 0/0/71 builds aren't as interesting or varied as x/x/51. That's personal preference, so you're welcome to feel differently.

"why no love for pallies Blizzard?"
WoTLK has been incredibly good to paladins and Ulduar has a number of nice improvements to look forward to.

Would a paladin equivalent of "Armored to the Teeth" be nice? Of course. And blizzard may implement something as an incentive to wear plate over Cloth or Leather. I just don't feel that we're broken, incomplete, unloved, or neglected without it.

[Ronark]

1.) Move up Purifying Power to T1 in Holy, make Spiritual Focus 3 points instead of 5. Gives Ret reason to jump into Holy, and gives other specs increased damage easily available for soloing.

2.) Add a second effect to Swift Retribution; either increase hit by 1/2/3%, or Expertise by 2/4/6.

3.) Seraphic Vow, Tier 10. Requires 45 Points in Retribution. Requires 3/3 Sheath of Light. : Whenever you cast Flash of Light, you gain Attack Power equal to 1/2/3/4/5% of the amount healed for X seconds (10?); Tied to Sheath of Light. Idea here is to encourage light healing, and to possibly grab Divinity in Prot and Healing Light in Holy.

4.) Hallowed Attire, Tier 3. Requires 10 Points in Protection. : Increases your Spell Power by 1/2/3 for every 720 Armor Value you have. (This is about 90-95 SP for Holy Paladins, 55-60 SP for Ret, and 100-105 SP for Prot given armor values on Live).

Just some ideas. I would rather see an Armor Value -> SP rather than an Armor Value -> AP talent so it is viable for Holy Paladins as well (since they, alongside Ret, would be the only ones to wear cloth/leather/mail). Having talents to give reason to jump into the other trees is a nice treat as well.

Just my $0.02.

[b37x]

I like the Armor -> SP idea.

I'd like to see Seals of the Pure reworked. Remove the limitations so it works on every seal. Have it effect both seal and judgment damage. Reduce the % it buffs and the ranks. Maybe 3/3 for 5%?

[Einarr]

I prefer to always start with judgement.

[slimdaking44]

You can look at any class and ask blizzard why pallies don't have this special ability or why don't we have multiple dps spec's like other classes... Personally, I think pallies are set up great, we have an extremely raid viable tank, dps, and healing specs, something that only us and druids can do, but lately druid bear tanks have been decreasing so in my oppinion we have become the only class that can realistically tank, heal and dps and we have gear that is out there for us. So what if we don't have armored to the teeth, our dps is still viable without it, if they were to give us something like armored to the teeth they would be required to take something away otherwise pallies have now become overpowered. Why not keep the classes different and enjoy the variety of different skills that our multiple class system has. Enjoy the fact that a ret pally can actually dps in this expansion without requiring a perfectly set up group and the absolute best gear available... And to comment on the nerf to the judgement damage, that annoys me because like any player that plays a dps class from time to time, I like big numbers, but if our dps was going to suffer to the point of making us unviable then blizzard would step in and change it back or be creative and think of something else.

[Etonlor]

First off, Wall-O-Text is fail. Go with whatever rotation that gives you the most DPS. Play styles WILL differ. Be experimental with your rotations and creative. Also try to keep your subject and topic matter related to Paladins. Paladins are NOT Mages. We are NOT Death Knights. We are NOT Shadow Priests. We are NOT Shamans. We are NOT Rogues. Paladins. Are. Paladins. Comparing a Paladin to another class is like saying, "Apples don't taste like Oranges, WTF? That's not fair!".

It ultimately breaks down to what your guild wants you to do. No Paladin is subject to stability. As being a Paladin, you will find yourself doing different DPS/HPS, etc. than other Paladins. All paladins have their own level of skill and level of "learnability" (for the lack of grammar), so go with what you are capable of. A palyer can only do so much, it's not like everyone can be the uber leetsauce.

[Vazor]

First off, Wall-O-Text is fail. Go with whatever rotation that gives you the most DPS. Play styles WILL differ. Be experimental with your rotations and creative. Also try to keep your subject and topic matter related to Paladins. Paladins are NOT Mages. We are NOT Death Knights. We are NOT Shadow Priests. We are NOT Shamans. We are NOT Rogues. Paladins. Are. Paladins. Comparing a Paladin to another class is like saying, "Apples don't taste like Oranges, WTF? That's not fair!".

It ultimately breaks down to what your guild wants you to do. No Paladin is subject to stability. As being a Paladin, you will find yourself doing different DPS/HPS, etc. than other Paladins. All paladins have their own level of skill and level of "learnability" (for the lack of grammar), so go with what you are capable of. A palyer can only do so much, it's not like everyone can be the uber leetsauce.

Do you even know what a wall-o-text is? A non-paragraphed page of text, hence the term "wall" because it has no creases, seems, breaks, etc, unlike mine, which had paragraphs that were cleverly divided based upon sentence structure and topic, so you are a fail troll, sir.

Also you are a horrible example of a preacher, or orator, or um, whatever you are trying to be, by bashing my post. Your negative comments are not welcome here, go away please. I have the right to post my opinion, without you trash talking me or my opinion, if you have negative stuff to say, dont bother commenting, because your negativity doesnt make anyone like you, it makes us hate you, and yes, I hate you. Oh and your apple logic is FLAWED, SIR! Apples DO taste like oranges, blizz fixed that in the last patch!

And yes, everyone can be the uber 1337sauce if they try a bit and do some research.

<_<

[iktankniet]

my concern is that we are being 'forced' into more utility. ofc we can spec 0/10/61 or w/e, but fellow raiders wont take that for granted. they expect you to take the extra utility even if it might be close to worthless for ret(aura mastery) or cause alot of deaths(Dsacrifice)

so instead of fixing SoB/M so we can check if ret paladin dmg is on par with other hybrids, blizz prolly wont change it untill the end of 3.1, or they wont. so when 3.1 is here we all go into ulduar with a broken seal, or a fixed Seal but lower dps then other classes because there was no time left on the ptr.

[Etonlor]

Do you even know what a wall-o-text is? A non-paragraphed page of text, hence the term "wall" because it has no creases, seems, breaks, etc, unlike mine, which had paragraphs that were cleverly divided based upon sentence structure and topic, so you are a fail troll, sir.

Also you are a horrible example of a preacher, or orator, or um, whatever you are trying to be, by bashing my post. Your negative comments are not welcome here, go away please. I have the right to post my opinion, without you trash talking me or my opinion, if you have negative stuff to say, dont bother commenting, because your negativity doesnt make anyone like you, it makes us hate you, and yes, I hate you. Oh and your apple logic is FLAWED, SIR! Apples DO taste like oranges, blizz fixed that in the last patch!

And yes, everyone can be the uber 1337sauce if they try a bit and do some research.

<_<

I had no intention of bashing you. I feel somewhat offended by your reply to me. The only negative thing I said toward you was my comment about the "Wall-O-Text", but even that was just me being playful.

If you are so apt to defend yourself in the manner that you are, then I must assume (and please excuse me since I must) you can see the flaws in your original post.

If you are easily offended over a single comment that was not meant personally, then I might suggest that you change your subject matter or take a second look at just how harsh the forums can be. I'm the least of your worries (if you see me as one), and should not be considered a problem/threat to you.

The fact of the matter is, no matter what other people say, stand by your opinion. When you get defensive, you only open yourself up more to negative comments. Please excuse my lousy metaphor, I'm bad at making up clever ones. The rest of what I posted was purely constructive in my usual harsh manner. I'm a critic, what can I say? Just make sure you comment in a non-sarcastic manner, because that just discredits your original post and makes you look like you could possibly be an ignorant person. You can't just "shoo" people out of "your" thread for disagreeing with you. If you have an opinion, expect to get people in "your" thread who think oppositely.

Also, no. Not all people can be the "leetsauce", you must consider the many variables involved under that topic. Definitions of "Wall-O-Text" are not needed, as they are sarcastic and discredit you. furthermore: good job, you know what a paragraph (another example of playfulness if you will ).

Sorry if you took it personal. I promise you that in any other case if I were some random person #778, you would have been blow off with a comment like "QQ moar". I'm a nice guy though, and am trying to turn a leaf, so cheers and good luck with "your" thread (no one owns a thread). I will leave you be.

[Vazor]

This is another example of what I mean, dont post in this thread please unless it has to deal with the topic, which is 3.1 damage/rotations and paladin skeleton tree lol.

[Anduril]

Personally, I prefer being able to fill out a tree and having points left over. 0/0/71 builds aren't as interesting or varied as x/x/51. That's personal preference, so you're welcome to feel differently.

If you actually took the time to read the OP, no where did he ask for 71 points to be valuable and useable in the Ret tree.

What he did ask for is a legitimate place to place the 12 extra talent points that all PVE Ret paladins have.

Aura Mastery is garbage, DS will get you killed, and divinity is meaningless.

So blizzard is either quite happy with the broken ret dps on the PTR (through bugs they have acknowledged and refused to fix for the past three test builds) or they are just igrnoring it.

[Elementium]

I still want combat expertise

[Kuthumii]

What he did ask for is a legitimate place to place the 12 extra talent points that all PVE Ret paladins have.

Aura Mastery is garbage, DS will get you killed, and divinity is meaningless.

DS won't get you killed if you use it with some intelligence. If it does kill you, its because you are bad.

Though I agree I wish there were some better utility talents or ones that increased DPS somehow.

[Etonlor]

This is another example of what I mean, dont post in this thread please unless it has to deal with the topic, which is 3.1 damage/rotations and paladin skeleton tree lol.

I simply made a reply to what you said in your original post. I'm sorry, but if what I commented about was not related to the topic, then that means even your original post was off topic. That would impossible though considering your original post sets the tablet for discussion.

I do believe everything you have to say in this thread was even more well spoken in a later thread called "Ret: How are we sitting in 3.1?"

As quoted:
"In 3.1 on most boss fights I am in top 5, topped the meter a few times. PVE-wise all they nerfed was the 7% crit on judgements which isnt too horrible, since they reversed the damage ratio on judgements/seals so that we wont rely on crits so much for our damage (judgement of martyr is like 3rd or 4th for most damage done as a ret pally in 3.1 which is refreshing from it being our number 1 source lol). Exorcism is nice, but we should really get the reduced cd from holy to make it better, cuz using it 4 times a minute is kinda bad for "total damage done by exorcism". The 10% damage reduction from our DOT really hurts, although CS can apparently do it too now, so it will always be up all the time. CS and exorcism hit really hard so CS is our main damage now for cooldowns lol. PVP wise we are bursty as hell with exorcism added and it doing SO MUCH when it crits as holy damage, and DS and CS being buffed like crazy, and SoC is the same, so even tho they nerfed the burst from martyr I used command anyway cuz it doesnt kill you."

Obviously you are in PTR, so that means you already know everything that needs to be said. In all, this specific thread just means you wanted to vent off your possible frustrations.

I conclude that this "topic" you speak of is just a bunch of QQ you blathered in your original post.

[Horn]

1. Stfu with the bickering
2. Yes some variety would be very nice for ret, maby some more pvp oriented talents. Personally i would expand Seals of the Pure damage to all seals and include judgements, and swap the positions of purifying power and unyielding faith in the holy tree.

[olovelyone]

<a href=http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?paladin=000000000000000000000000005500010420000000000000000005232050203331302133231331&gl yph=101705020405&version=9757>3.1 Ret PvE Raiding Build</a> (The 4 points in Toughness are optional and can be placed in any combination of Toughness, Stoicism, Guardian's Favor, Anticipation, or Improved Righteous Fury).

3.1 Ret Rotation:
Crusader Strike, Hammer of Wrath, Judgment, Divine Storm, Consecration, Exorcism

This information is not my opinion, but from the very smart folk over at ElitistJerks.com