3.1.1 PvP - Blood Vs Command

[ShinKosh]

So it’s been a night and we have all had a chance to pick ourselves off the floor after another trip to the GhostCrawler clinic for surgical balancing. So Exorcism can't be used to give other players a quick slap around the back of the head anymore, thus killing off our new found burst toy.

The question is, where do we stand now?

Seal of Blood:
Seal damage buffed up
Judgment bomb damage nerfed down

They claim this was to reduce the burst to both the Ret and the poor sap on the other end. For PvE this seems like a good idea but with the Judgment nerf killing Bloods only source of on demand burst and coupled with the Exorcism nerf does Blood still have what it takes to be PvP viable? No burst bar crits (hello resilience) but each Crusader Strike and Divine Storm hits like a truck being pushed along by a train.

Seal of Command:
No changes. Lord forbid they would make is useful.

It's the same old Seal of Command from yesteryear. It's still as reliable as the postal service and strikes twice as hard, assuming it actually goes off. The burst while uncontrollable can be scary for a healer or catch one off guard for a quick kill. Don’t forget about if you do find a stunned target you're set for a free crit. That is the only thing about Seal of Casino you can count on.

So where does this leave Ret for Season 6? Is Seal of Blood still viable with the evened out return damage, no burst and steady +20% more damage than SoC or is the old Command looking like its making a return this Season with its burst and on demand Stun->Judge combo.

What do you guys think?

[Astray]

I guess there will be 2 playstyles, bloody offensive and commanding defensive.

With sacred shield, a ton of resilience some points in prot and blessing of kings a ret pally is a running bulwark. Combine that with the divine storm glyph and seal of command to avoid any unnecessary damage
-> Ret the Warriortormentor

More offensive would be Seal of Blood, Blessing of Might, and all damaging talents you can get. May work as a risky double-damager combination or with a healer to rely on.
-> Retdor the Burninator

[amk]

If you land a 5k Seal proc crit..you take 500 damage as recoil. How can that possibly be a problem?

Remember, 10k Judgements crits returned 33% recoil to you. 3300 damage is nothing to sneeze at, but 500 damage is.

SoC has no use at all, except for leveling.

[ShinKosh]

If your still landing 10k Judgments from Blood then I salute you sir.

Since the patch my Judgments have not seen anything like this short of gimick fights.

[Adamson]

For the record, did a quick test modeling. Even if Blizzard added 20% more damage from SoC (not JoC) on top of the 20% greater proc chance... SoC would be below SoB. It'd finally beat SoR Glyph + SotP, but that's it. This was not even counting the lost DPS from losing some other Major Glyph.

Unless they entirely rework SoC (or skyrocket its coefficients/proc rate) and/or its glyph it will never be competitive PvE DPS.

Blizzard has not made any such change - nothing to see here, this is not the Seal you are looking for. Move along, move along.

[ShinKosh]

That's fair enough Adamson, I agree with all of that but I was more looking at this from a PvP point of view. Blood is constant in your face damage on every swing, with the chance to crit for added burst while Command is around equal on proc but with a harder hitting judgment which can crit on demand as long as you get your stun in.

I'll be trying them both out tonight to see how they feel but with the loss of most controllable burst on Blood and Command keeping the freight train burst potential I’m not sure any more Blood is the way.

[Adamson]

Honestly with a healer setup the recoil is negligible. I wouldn't spec into command for anything as of the current mechanics.

[amk]

If your still landing 10k Judgments from Blood then I salute you sir.

Since the patch my Judgments have not seen anything like this short of gimick fights.

Er...that was my point. The reason why people still used SoC pre-3.1 was out of fear of recoil from 10k Judgements. As you (and I ) stated, that doesn't happen anymore, and thus you have no reason not to use SoB/SoM in PvP

Pre-3.1 you were taking 33% recoil off of 10k Judgement Crits
Post-3.1 you are taking 10% recoil off of 5k (?) Seal Procs

The damage you are taking is negligible compared to the extra damage you are inflicting via SoB/SoM.

[ShinKosh]

Ah right, I follow you now.

Since 3.1 I haven’t seen the recoil as an issue, like you said and with the Glyph of Divine Storm its even less of an issue so yes I agree the recoil damage on blood is now nothing but a nose bleed compared to the gushing artery wound it was before.

My point was more on when your trying to burst down someone in PvP. Since we are ment to be the class based around high burst and stuns, which in this patch both have been nerfed, I was more looking at does Command still have the burst while Blood is lacking it.

Maybe Blood makes up for this by hitting like a train every swing but it leaves me feeling like a warrior who isn't using his interrupts or healing debuffs or distance closers or snares.

[Varius]

Bout the only reason i still have command is for soloing lvl 60 raid content where any extra damage you do to yourself can quickly cause you to have to heal which reduces your mana pool very quickly.

[nwo]

SoC has no use at all, except for leveling.

Good for PVP, especially if you are running with imp hammer of justice (which any PVP pally should) and another class that can stun (rogue). Why? Because you get a free crit when your target is stunned and you don't take ANY damage from it.
Seal twisting ftw?

[jneboon]

its blood all the way...just ignore this talent fotm

[PalliesThrowStuff]

For me, the changes have pushed me more TOWARDS Martyr, than away from it.

The overall damage was shifted to be seal-heavy rather than Judgement heavy, which also means that we take, overall, less recoil damage.

SoComm was useful before when just as you say, those 3k crits would be scary in the arena, and while I never fell victim to it, I have killed other Ret Paladins because of that momentary self-damage on top of my own burst. SoComm's stun-crit was incredibly useful, because let's face it, any time anyone's getting killed by a Ret Paladin with a healer around, is while they're stunned, our burst isn't good enough to do it alone.

You might say that Blood has less burst than Command now, but only if you look at Judgement, because seal damage is so crazy high from Blood now, CS + Seal + White + Seal is the king of our burst, but even still, it's not good enough, IMO, to stand up to other burst damage classes.

[Deathleech]

Yes, Seal of Blood/Martyr is still the best for both PVE AND PVP.

It basically comes down to doing an extra 20% dmg from your judgment every 8 seconds OR doing an extra 100% dmg over 3 seconds from all the increased, guaranteed seal procs from Blood/Martyr. It's not as much burst in one ability when you use SoB/M, but it is MUCH more DPS over a few seconds which is still very bursty.

[Xs]

Unless I'm having some fun ganking stuff with Wings + dead in stun I'd never use SoC, might use it with a good rogue partner to cord stuns for big burst but I doubt it would make a big difference
Personally I'd redesign SoC away from the bonus judgement dmg on stun, since thats where a lot of QQ comes about Ret doing OP burst (although its incredibly fun) something like 100% proc on specials like SoB, maybe tweak the PPM and damage bit to make it slightly less casino burst and more controllable burst

[Phantomebb]

I have done a little testing with the new seal of the martyr in Pvp and arena and I think which seal you use is based of what comp you are running in arenas and personal preference.

I have always used Seal of Command pretty exclusively because my 2s partner is not a healer. But before with Martyr i could get huge crits of around 6.5k k in pvp (this is when both berserking and Greatness proced)

I believe now days if you can't stick on your target more then 80% of the time then martyr really isn't worth it because it isn't doing anymore damage, is doing less burst damage (which is less controlled then command), and is hurting you. Now in a non healer comp that 4-8k really can make or break your team so that's why I don't use martyr but with a healer it is very good consistent damage. Now martyr is very good anti-cc for things like sheep and seduce and it does free up 1 more glyph slot then the command spec does but both of those things are pretty minor.

Personally i love command because my opening salvo does insane damage. Instant crit judge crusader strike and storm + bandits insignia when i have both berserking and Greatness active with my auto attacks usually does between 10-20k damage depending on crits and procs and who im facing. I just find that putting a lot of dps pressure on the target in the beginning of an arena really forces a team to blow there cooldowns and trinkets very early.

So unless they change the seals im sticking with command. Btw last season my team was 2115 rated so im not a scrub.

[Azharok]

Hmm still loving the 8k swings (4k CS and 4 seals) . Command is trash as far as I'm concerned now....

[iktankniet]

text

ok this is how i think about it.

with command you can do nice burst dmg. but when all attacks are on cd and you arent lucky with SoC on white hits, the opponent has a window where he can heal or get healed. then you have to start all over again.

with Blood you do constant pressure on the player just with autoattack and SoB. if both crit it can do 6k dmg easily. now add CS+soB, DS+SoB and another auto+SoB and its a shitload of trouble that comes over the other team. which means the healer has to focus on your target alot instead of just the bursts every 10seconds.

[ShinKosh]

I was in the arena last night after being dragged around Nax by the guild. I didnt get to really have a long session in the arena but I got 20 games done. I figured, I'll start with Blood and if I feel its letting me down, the burst isnt there or killing me I'll swap back to ye olde command.

So 20 games later and Im looking at my talents wondering what I can spec with a spare point.

Yes, Command didn't even get put on the bars last night. The constant damage from Seal of Blood was nice but I did kinda feel like a warrior from S4, again without a pummel or hamstring.

[amk]

Although I don't know why I'm bothering (good Ret Paladins know why they shouldn't use SoC) at the very least you should be using SoB/SoM for not other reason then to guarantee you some MP5 against drain teams via Glyph of Seal of Blood.

You can thank Blizzard for allowing Divine Plea to once more be dispelled. This was to nerf Holy Paladins, but strangely, it has a far greater effect on Rets.