Expertise for druid tanking?

[Pose]

question says it all. is it worth speccing into Primal Precision?

[Danthegreat1]

Yes, it pretty much gives you the soft cap.

[getefix]

you have a 15% chance to be dodged or parried. 10 expertise is 2.5% to not be parried/dodged. For 2 points this is very good for threat generation, as well as proccing SD.

[Deleted]

Not just that, expertise is an avoidence and threat stat.

The less you are dodged or parried, the more threat you do, the more damage you do, and the better you can keep SD up.
With less parries (15%ish expertise to be parryimmune), you take less damage from bosses melee swings being reset.

[mmc]

http://www.wowwiki.com/Expertise_rating

The dodge and parry chances for boss-mobs is currently disputed, but combat parses tend to point at around 6.5% dodge and as high as 12-15% parry.[citation needed] Assuming 6.5% dodge and 15% parry, a player would need 26 expertise (about 214 expertise rating at level 80) to negate a boss' dodge chance, and 60 expertise (about 492 expertise rating at level 80) to prevent parries.

[arel00]

you have a 15% chance to be dodged or parried. 10 expertise is 2.5% to not be parried/dodged. For 2 points this is very good for threat generation, as well as proccing SD.

No.

The dodge and parry chances for boss-mobs is currently disputed, but combat parses tend to point at around 6.5% dodge and as high as 12-15% parry.

This.

[baseball]

I think selling expertise as an avoidance stat is tough. I don't buy that parry-gib is a problem large enough that druids should be spending talent points or looking for armor with expertise.

However.

Expertise IS a huge +threat stat. I took primal precision back in naxx when the dps started getting their 2 and 4 piece bonuses and saw they were nipping at my threat-heels. That totally solved the problem.

Honestly the only way I think you can seriosuly count expertise as an avoidance stat is through Savage Defense, and even the extra landed attacks giving you an extra chance to crit is minimal.


rambling aside -- yeah, I love primal precision.

[Selverein]

very good for threat generation, as well as proccing SD.

avoidance stat is through Savage Defense, and even the extra landed attacks giving you an extra chance to crit is minimal.

Unless your crit is being capped because of that extra parry/dodge chance, since the melee table is a single roll, Expertise will not help with SD/Crits.

[Ektoplasme]

Only white attacks are on a single roll system. Every special attack in the game works with a 2 roll system.

[getefix]

No.

The dodge and parry chances for boss-mobs is currently disputed, but combat parses tend to point at around 6.5% dodge and as high as 12-15% parry.[citation needed] Assuming 6.5% dodge and 15% parry, a player would need 26 expertise (about 214 expertise rating at level 80) to negate a boss' dodge chance, and 60 expertise (about 492 expertise rating at level 80) to prevent parries.

To "cap" expertise against a raid boss, melee DPS need only concern themselves with the boss' dodge chance, provided that they attack from behind. This dictates a goal of 214 expertise rating. Tanks, however, attack from the front, and need to worry about both dodge and parry.

There's more to an article than the first line of a paragraph.
It is good for threat generation, proccing SD, and avoiding the swing-timer reset.
If WowWiki can assume 15% then I'm going to too, unless you have a better number to go with? It doesn't really matter what the cap is, we'll never hit it anyway.
Thanks for nit-picking though.

The answer to the OP's question remains "Yes" as it is a tank talent, if anyone disagrees then they're clueless.

[baseball]

I think arel was saying "no" because your first post made it sound like BOTH dodge AND parry had a 15% cap, which is false.

dodge = 6.5% cap, parry = 15% cap.

dps classes don't care about a parry cap since they [should be] attacking from the back.

Tanks should stack expertise above the dodge cap because they [should be] attacking from the front.

And, again, I don't think expertise makes enough of an impact on parry gibs (swing timer resets) or SD procs to make it an avoidance stat -- it's purely a +threat stat.

[getefix]

I see, well considering this thread is titled "Expertise for druid tanking" it could be assumed that I was talking about both. I did write:

you have a 15% chance to be dodged or parried.

If you manage to not miss(8% chance) or be dodged(6.5% chance) then you will have (up to) an 8.5% chance to be parried without expertise.

I'm not sure how the double roll works with probabilities. I assume the first roll is done for just %hit and the second one is on %dodge, %parry, %crit, %regular hit? Anyone have a good link on the roll system?

[elapadrinar]

arbitrary post about the dodge chance being 6.5%

[Selverein]

Only white attacks are on a single roll system. Every special attack in the game works with a 2 roll system.

Just for the records, it was never proven that special attacks used a 2-roll table. It was somewhat tested back in 2006, but not thoroughly. Spells use that 2-roll table, and Hunters are also thought to use the same.

Afaik, it is still assumed for melee, both white and yellow attacks, that a 1-roll table is used hence my previous post.

[arel00]

My "no" was referred exactly to the numbers, as it's been clarified by someone else. The second quote was related, stating that dodge is only a 6,5% against a 12-15% parry. I know it's pissing when I do that, but I'd rather piss you off for a minute than risking having people do false assumptions with the chance of screwing their work / getting back to protest.

As for the OP question, yes, of course, but that had already been answered. Expertise is worth twice as much as hit for threat until the dodge cap, and as kuch as hit up to the parry cap. More, if you consider the parry-gibbing that *may* apply to some bosses.

Regarding the rolls: I am aware that white attacks follow a one-roll system, accounting for glancing blows, misses, dodges, parries, hits and criticals. This has been tested several times as far as I know.
I think specials have a 2-roll system, but I can't confirm anything on this last thing (however, Selverein is right about spells). The best shot I can give you is to ask Alski, I think he has more insight than me on the combat table.