Choice of weapons

[anaksunamon]

Ok I have been reading through some of the posts in here and just need a little more information on weapons

I had prior to Ulduar been the most unlucky with drops so I had naxx 10 weaps with me into ulduar.

I have in the first raid week got a hold:

- of Vulmir, the Northern Tempest <> 1h mace 2,6 speed 178,8 dps
- Remorse, <> 1h sword 1,6 speed 178,8 dps

I know that this is far from good setup - but considering my naxx 10 weap its still way better.

My question is:

1. should I go for Malice MH sword and use sword spec?

2. should I go for Stonerender OH mace and use mace spec?

3. Should I wait for Fist MH and Dagger OH?

The thing I am wondering about is the talk in here about combat potency giving more energy the faster the OH is? and both the sword and mace OH is 1,6 speed no matter what spec I choose.

The old web death dagger was 1,4 speed for CG QCQ spec - but does there even drop a 1,4 speed dagger in Ulduar (hardmode not taken into account)?

And is the 0,1-0,2 speed increase/decrease between Mace/sword OH (spec) vs. Fist dagger 1,4 speed OH spec matter enough for me to really care about at this point in Ulduar?

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I use WP/DP with the Mace MH - Sword OH now and had planned to do the same when I get mace/mace or sword/sword - but since both OH in those 2 specs i 1,6 is it then better to go WP/WP all fights? and not just in fights like Rasorscale etc. where there is no time for DP to tick.

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Hope this made any sense and all help is very much apriciated

[Surn]

I'm not sure about it, but I think mace specc is still the worse of the three combat speccs. I also read that sword specc is close to equal to fist/dagger because the weapon quality is about the same in Ulduar which wasn't in Naxxramas obviously. I would go for a sword/sword specc in your situation.

[Voij]

I'm not sure about it, but I think mace specc is still the worse of the three combat speccs. I also read that sword specc is close to equal to fist/dagger because the weapon quality is about the same in Ulduar which wasn't in Naxxramas obviously. I would go for a sword/sword specc in your situation.

Leaving Itemization aside it's Fist>Mace>>>Sword.
Fist is ~289 Critrating, Mace is ~290 ArPrating, Sword is bad.

@OP: Spec according to the weapons you have, if you can get your hands on the OH-mace first, then go Maces. If you can grab the sword first, gogo Swords. Same goes for Fists/Daggers.

[Ruma]

Leaving Itemization aside it's Fist>Mace>>>Sword.
Fist is ~289 Critrating, Mace is ~290 ArPrating, Sword is bad.

@OP: Spec according to the weapons you have, if you can get your hands on the OH-mace first, then go Maces. If you can grab the sword first, gogo Swords. Same goes for Fists/Daggers.

So a 5% chance to get an additional swing that can also crit is bad? Especially with the new Lightning Reflexes I bet that the sword spec is going far above maces and close quater.

[Voij]

So a 5% chance to get an additional swing that can also crit is bad? Especially with the new Lightning Reflexes I bet that the sword spec is going far above maces and close quater.

Take a look at what you're comparing:
5% chance to get another swing, caused by Melee, SS, Finishers.
5% critchance ON Melee, SS, Finishers, Poisons.

Swords was stronger in BC because we were white-hit-capped and because Melee was about 60%+ of our total damage, which meant that you'd get a whole lot of Sword-Spec-Procs from Offhand-Attacks.
That's not the case anymore, as we're not hit-capped for white attacks anymore.

Now add Lethality and Prey on the Weak, which both benefit a lot more from Crit then from an extra-attack, add the fact that an extra-attack through an SS-proc doesn't equal the extra-crit you'd get for SS. (SS-/Finisher-Crit vs. extra melee-attack when using SS/Finisher? Obvious lose for Sword-Spec)


Hope it's clear now that there's a reason why CQC is superior to Sword-Spec. O_o

[Surn]

But the additional swing doesn't necessarily needs to be white damage, for instance it can be a eviscerate or any other skill. Anyways, we will see later on what will top the damage meters

[Voij]

But the additional swing doesn't necessarily needs to be white damage, for instance it can be a eviscerate or any other skill. Anyways, we will see later on what will top the damage meters

The additional swing is ALWAYS a Mainhand-Attack. (You may also get a WP-proc or whatever, but it still remains just a Mainhand-Attack.)
It may proc from a finisher or SS, but it's ALWAYS a Mainhand-Attack, no matter what you do.

And it's not about topping the meters, it's about what's theoretically best. And the winner in this department is CQC.

[Ruma]

Take a look at what you're comparing:
5% chance to get another swing, caused by Melee, SS, Finishers.
5% critchance ON Melee, SS, Finishers, Poisons.

Swords was stronger in BC because we were white-hit-capped and because Melee was about 60%+ of our total damage, which meant that you'd get a whole lot of Sword-Spec-Procs from Offhand-Attacks.
That's not the case anymore, as we're not hit-capped for white attacks anymore.

Now add Lethality and Prey on the Weak, which both benefit a lot more from Crit then from an extra-attack, add the fact that an extra-attack through an SS-proc doesn't equal the extra-crit you'd get for SS. (SS-/Finisher-Crit vs. extra melee-attack when using SS/Finisher? Obvious lose for Sword-Spec)


Hope it's clear now that there's a reason why CQC is superior to Sword-Spec. O_o

Oh yes, I didnt take Prey on the Weak into account when running through it. I'm running CQC with GC and WD at the moment with 3990AP, 385hit and tad below 40% crit. Swapping to Malice/Remorse, I'd loose around 20AP, 21hit, and about 5.20% crit, but gain extra swings and more pleasant swing sound. Oh well, as the amount of hit from gear increases, the sword spec should become more viable.

[Voij]

Oh yes, I didnt take Prey on the Weak into account when running through it. I'm running CQC with GC and WD at the moment with 3990AP, 385hit and tad below 40% crit. Swapping to Malice/Remorse, I'd loose around 20AP, 21hit, and about 5.20% crit, but gain extra swings and more pleasant swing sound. Oh well, as the amount of hit from gear increases, the sword spec should become more viable.

And as the amount of hit you should aim for does NOT increase, sword spec won't become more viable.

[Ruma]

And as the amount of hit you should aim for does NOT increase, sword spec won't become more viable.

So, you think that after you have the magical number of 315, you should avoid hit? Just what is the logic behind that, it is perfectly possible to get 500+ hit without sacrificing anything, nor does that require you to gem for hit. If this makes another combat spec viable, or even better than the others, why not stack a bit of hit?

[Voij]

So, you think that after you have the magical number of 315, you should avoid hit? Just what is the logic behind that, it is perfectly possible to get 500+ hit without sacrificing anything, nor does that require you to gem for hit. If this makes another combat spec viable, or even better than the others, why not stack a bit of hit?

Because you could stack other stats.

Take the Belt of the Tortured and Stalk-Skin Belt for example. If you're at 200 hit, then the BotT will probably be better than the SSB, but if you're at the poison-hitcap (which is NOT 315 btw, there's no ultimate poison-hitcap, it always depends on your setup) then SSB will probably be better.

I'll even go a little deeper here:

When you change from BotT to SSB, your stats will change as follows:
+11 Agi
- 6 Sta
- 24 AP
+ 19 Crit
+ 36 Haste
- 50 Hit

Now let's enter some EP-values here(Taken from Combat Compendium):
+ 11 Agi = + 21,34 EP
- 6 Sta = 0
- 24 AP = - 24 EP
+ 19 Crit = + 29,26 EP
+ 36 Haste = + 52,56 EP
- 50 Hit = depends on what Hitrating you have.
21,34-24+29,26+52,56=79,16 EP
So 50 Hit has to be 79,16 EP, meaning that you'll need to have a Hitrating of exactly 12.1 points below the poison-hitcap for both Belts to be equal, if your hit is higher, then the SSB is better. Was rather simple math, here's the two equations necessary:

79,16 = x*1.68 + y*1.28
x+y=50

Sooo, if you haven't stopped reading yet, then now you'll hopefully be able to realise that for Rogues an item is not always worth the same and that items with Hit on them get worse once you've reached a certain amount of Hit. (Whether it's 315, 289, 237 or 210.)

[bbr]

I'm not sure about it, but I think mace specc is still the worse of the three combat speccs. I also read that sword specc is close to equal to fist/dagger because the weapon quality is about the same in Ulduar which wasn't in Naxxramas obviously. I would go for a sword/sword specc in your situation.

The best weapons in game are still fist / dagger.
Swords don't even come close.
Maces, same problem as swords.

[winternights]

Stop saying sword spec is dead or whatever already, it's currently the best single target dps weapon specialization.

Instead of making assumptions based purely on new abilities gained in WotLK (PotW), try it out in the spreadsheet with equal weapons and you'll see for yourself.
Don't just blindly believe what so many are saying, loads of rumours and clueless people are spreading fist/dagger to be the best only due to the fact that current itemization support it.

Swords -> Maces -> Fists, there you have it from a theroretical point of view or roughly:
Deadly Glad Slicer+Quickblade 6116 dps
Deadly Glad Right+Left Ripper 6054 dps
Deadly Glad Pummeler+Bonecracker 6097 dps

some obvious exceptions e.g with very high armor pen Maces will take the top spot, with very high +hit swords will push ahead even further etc.