[Enh] A peculiar result for weapon choice?

[Urenat]

Hey,

Recently I've discovered Rawr (which is a great tool, thanks for those responsible) and with a friend of mine, who is our local theorycrafter on primarily hunters we have taken a quick look at the enhancement shaman as well. What we discovered in our initial look at the program is that it predicts Wraith Strike from Maexxna 25 man to be the best weapon for an enhancements main hand. Better than the masticator, Golden saronite dragon and Calamity's grasp. This is both with and without raid buffs and counting for shamans with different gear. Other people we know where curious if this would be true and they did some simple calculations as well and found the same results.

My question is this: I have never seen this weapon been mentioned for enhancement shammies and have never seen anyone wielding it, do other people get this result as well?

Our initial reaction was that there must be something wrong, because with a loss of almost 80 base weapon DPS it should be worse. Our secondary reaction was that with our damage coming 50% from physical damage, but also 50% from spell damage this insane amount of spell power might cope for the loss of the base damage. This is what we think about it and I'm curious how other people think of this.

Looking forward to your reactions.

[Cl4ymore]

before 3.1 i weared the castermainhand from kel 10 and webbed death.

it was much better than grasp, before 3.1.


all the other caster mainhands are not in raw anymore, or not listed high.
the castermainhand from maexxna, is top 1 here too....

i know that its better than the other castermainhands cause it has a 2,6 speed, but im curious about that too. because it has a lot less basedamage.

i dont have this weapon and dont have the intention to farm naxx again to get this... so i cant test it....

mb someone tested it, if its really that great?

[Deleted]

A lot will depend on what version this was. As I put more and more time into perfecting the model I discover little bugs here and there. Spellpower items do seem to be over calculated at present so I suspect there is some additional factor I'm missing from the formulae.

Sadly no-one else is assisting with any testing, all anyone wants to do is to tell me what happens as a result of using the optimiser. To be honest they may as well be loading a different shaman from another server. The optimiser does so many changes to gear its absolutely impossible to check why the dps change occurred.

If you change a single thing and see an effect you can say hmm I added X of Y stat and it gave me z% more dps. If you run the optimiser it changes your A, B, C, D, E, F, G & H stats so working out the effect of changing any one of those is completely swamped in the mass of changes.

What I need is single stat changes testing NOT "the optimiser changed a 1001 stats why is that?" comments. If you can assist the help would be much appreciated. However PLEASE, ALWAYS ALWAYS quote the version number.

[Urenat]

I understand where you're coming from. You can't fix any problem if you don't know what's happening. As I said, I have only done preliminary testing and the information might be wrong. I will try to do some more testing soon. (before I will go to Naxx again to try and get it.) If we get some clearer results I will share it and then everyone can do with it whatever they want.

What we already did do is try different gear sets and talent builds and those did not alter the picking order for the weapons.

The version we are using is 2.2.1, which is the latest if I'm correct.

As a last point, I'm not asking for a miracle answer (although it would be nice :P) I was initially asking whether someone else has seen such results, because no one really ever discusses this weapon (at least not as far as I have seen). But if you say that this version might overrate spellpower we can take a look into that and do some more thorough testing.

Thanks for the reactions anyway. Now I do know that others have seen this as well.

Looking forward to more calculus,

Urenat

[Cl4ymore]

i got 2.2.1 too, so the newest version.

and i dont change anything on my gear. i just go in the list on the right side, and choose "mainhand" or whatever. then he tells me that the casterfist of naxx is the best weapon choice ingame, followed by a few combinations of golden saronite dragon, followed by the masticator and insanity grip and then calamitys grasp.


so like i sayed, i did not use the optimizer to change all my gear, i just use the comparison table on the right.

[Deleted]

i got 2.2.1 too, so the newest version.

and i dont change anything on my gear. i just go in the list on the right side, and choose "mainhand" or whatever. then he tells me that the casterfist of naxx is the best weapon choice ingame, followed by a few combinations of golden saronite dragon, followed by the masticator and insanity grip and then calamitys grasp.


so like i sayed, i did not use the optimizer to change all my gear, i just use the comparison table on the right.

Yes... but how do the figures compare to doing the same calculation in EnhSim for instance. What is out? By how much? What happens if you add a little more of another stat? How does that effect the results in Rawr? How does the same change affect results in EnhSim?

ie: TESTING!!!

Not just loading your character and saying it shows this top. If you can load your character and see that it says you are not spell capped (100% spell hit) or yellow hit capped (100% yellow hit) and you think you should be then THAT is useful to report. As you can see actual numbers and compare it with expected results and say what's different. Knowing that one item is ahead of the other doesn't really tell me much unless you can say as someone did recently this item has X stat and it should be Y.

So whilst I appreciate that more and more people are using Rawr, I need a bit more detailed testing, rather than reporting stuff without giving me a clue as to what might be wrong.


I strongly suspect there is an extra factor missing from some calcs and that will swing the balance away from spellpower stuff. I noted yesterday for instance, v2.2.1.1 will have the fix, that the rate of glancing blows was in at 35% when it should have been 70%. Now I have no idea why the original author put in 35% but that was a mistake, it took my completely unbuffed stats from 740 white dps to 802. This now compares extremely well with the 803 dps that EnhSim calculates. So I'm now happy white dps is entirely accurate. I need to do similar verifications for all the other stats, comparing step by step what is different from one model to the next, any help in this would be greatly appreciated.

[Cl4ymore]

srry levva, but i did not want to insult you, that rawr makes something wrong or something.

i just wanted to know if this can be right, because i dont think, that my gear is this much different from others, that a weapon can be the best for me, while it is bad for others. there can be some little differences, through gemming and so on, but not such a thing.


the only thing i wanted to know, if someone got the same results, or if someone tested this ingame since 3.1.
im not able to test this, cause i dont have this weapon, so i have to ask others . this was my intention. it were not rly my intention to blame rawr to do something wrong .

[Zhalseran]

I've been wondering how good Wraith Strike is as well lately. I have been using it since before 3.1 and thought I needed to replace it. Rawr (v2.2.1) shows Golden Saronite Dragon as being the only upgrade to it for me though. Also, I've tried plugging my stats into EnhSim (1.7.0) and adjusting them to what they would be with Calamity's Grasp (based on what rating buster tells me, and making sure to accommodate for AP>SP) and Wraith Strike does still come out just ahead. I've not tried for the Golden Saronite Dragon, but if memory serves, Wraith Strike was just slightly above Calamity's Grasp with EnhSim, so the Dragon would likely be above them both.

I unfortunately don't have any specific numbers or anything in front of me right now but I can certainly provide any specifics required later. Here is my armory at any rate:
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...r&n=Melisander

The only other mainhand I have to compare with is Titansteel Bonecrusher so sadly I don't have any form of accurate comparison from ingame.

[Deleted]

srry levva, but i did not want to insult you, that rawr makes something wrong or something.

i just wanted to know if this can be right, because i dont think, that my gear is this much different from others, that a weapon can be the best for me, while it is bad for others. there can be some little differences, through gemming and so on, but not such a thing.


the only thing i wanted to know, if someone got the same results, or if someone tested this ingame since 3.1.
im not able to test this, cause i dont have this weapon, so i have to ask others . this was my intention. it were not rly my intention to blame rawr to do something wrong .

I'm not insulted, I just want some testing (sobs quietly in the background lamenting the fact that no-one seems to listen). If you can TEST this - testing is easy. Click the export to EnhSim, click import in EnhSimGUI run the figures. Do this with the gear you have and get figures, then do it again for the item that looks odd ie: equip that item in Rawr and export & import again and run the sim. What is the difference? Does EnhSim also say its a dps upgrade? If not what EXACTLY is the difference.

Lets take an example, you view Rawr and it says Wraithstike is an upgrade to your Calamity Grasp and you think hmm odd. You export your current setup and get a result in EnhSim. You save the output.txt file for later comparison. Then you equip wraithstrike in Rawr and export new setup and run the result in EnhSim. You compare the two output files and note that actually EnhSim says wraithstrike is worse. BINGO you found an issue.

Now you compare the different stats with what Rawr says. Lets say for instance that it shows Lava Lash dps going up in Rawr but going down in EnhSim. Whereas the rest is much the same. Suddenly we can say hmm perhaps there is a bug in the Lava Lash calcs, NOW we would be getting somewhere something I can actually test and check out.

Hopefully that example will let people understand what I need as far as testing goes. If anyone can assist I'd be really grateful.

[Kduruh]

Personally i've never used rawr, i also never relly on guides and theorycrafting, i like to theorize myself and to test my results, testing is essential because calculations don't take into account the randomness of a lof of things such as crits and procs.

When 3.1 was out on the PTR, i tried using my caster mace as a mainhand and i also had 2/2 Frozen power and i really got a big DPS boost eventhough i didn't have the best caster weapon nor berzerking enchant but that was on the test dummy and all i had were my own buffs, in a raid it might have a totaly diferent outcome, for example: i was using frosbrand weapon enchant at that time, in a raid it would scale up poorly while windfury would scale up insanely well also, since the weapon damage on a caster weapon is lower by default, it won't scale up as good with AP as a melee weapon so you would get a static DPS boost from the spellpower on your caster weapon but you would lose the scalling boost of a melee weapon combined with tones of attack power. I'm not saying that a caster weapon is a bad idea... i havn't tested it myself, i'm just saying: don't relly on calculations, test have a different turnout quite often as an example:

Testing shows that as enhancement going for a hard cap is a DPS loss and well, i'm at about top PVE gear pre ulduar, maybe not really as good as i could get but almost, i'm expertise capped and less than 1% away from the hard hit cap and i'm putting out about 6k DPS give or take on a fight suck as patchwerk, with heroism and CDs up i can go up to 7k, which is about the same as any good enhancement shaman is putting out with similar gear and again, i'm not saying that going for the hard hit cap is the best option, but right now it seems at least as good as going for the spellcap only so one more time... get the weapon, enchant it and use it on a 25 man raid and compare to previous raids, doing anything other than that doesn't prove much.

[Barawr]

testing is essential because calculations don't take into account the randomness of a lof of things such as crits and procs.

So you don't believe in proc rates and percentages in a calculation even though this is EXACTLY what the actual game bases there outcome on??

i also had 2/2 Frozen power and i really got a big DPS

Doesn't work on any raid bosses

Testing shows that as enhancement going for a hard cap is a DPS loss

This has ALWAYS been the case seeing how you would have to stack all hit and still would not likely achieve it. Spell hit cap however is NOT a dps loss.

[Deleted]

Personally i've never used rawr, i also never relly on guides and theorycrafting, i like to theorize myself and to test my results, testing is essential because calculations don't take into account the randomness of a lof of things such as crits and procs.

WHAT???? Of course the calculations take into account crits and procs. The EnhSim in particular runs through thousands and thousands of hours doing millisecond by millisecond individual calculations of exactly what happens during a fight it specifically SIMULATES the entire combat cycle, so it works out exactly what happens when things proc or crit thus triggering other effects.

I don't for a minute believe that ANY individual testing you did can be as accurate as a sim that hundreds of people have contributed to the testing of. EnhSim has evolved by top Enhancement shaman testing things in game for hours and hours on end and comparing the results to the sim, where the sim is different they have been able to fix the sim, OR as is true in many cases POINT OUT BUGS TO BLIZZARD. Is your testing as accurate that you can actually spot when the GAME is wrong and the sim is RIGHT!!! That's what you are critisising a piece of work that can actually detect when the game it is simulating has a bug.

You then go on to suggest Frozen Power which has been designed as a PvP talent from day 1, when we experienced testers tried it out we noticed that it did occassionally work on some bosses although not reliably, Blizzard was informed and they fixed that bug. The reason it goes against the class design to be using caster weapons, so if we can work out why the GAME is pushing us away from melee gear Blizzard have stated quite explicitly that they will fix it.

Testing shows that as enhancement going for a hard cap is a DPS loss and well, i'm at about top PVE gear pre ulduar, maybe not really as good as i could get but almost, i'm expertise capped and less than 1% away from the hard hit cap and i'm putting out about 6k DPS give or take on a fight suck as patchwerk, with heroism and CDs up i can go up to 7k, which is about the same as any good enhancement shaman is putting out with similar gear and again, i'm not saying that going for the hard hit cap is the best option, but right now it seems at least as good as going for the spellcap only so one more time... get the weapon, enchant it and use it on a 25 man raid and compare to previous raids, doing anything other than that doesn't prove much.

Yes IN GAME TESTING, shows that going for hard melee cap is a DPS loss. The fact that almost everyone was quickly able to get top PvE gear pre-uludar is not really an achievement, even I got there However pushing beyond the spell hit cap and gearing specifically for hit WILL DEFINITELY be a dps loss. Your testing is obviously extremely sub-standard if you are showing anything else. I suspect you aren't actually testing all you are doing is loading up hit and getting that result, not actually swapping around other gear and seeing what the other result is.

BTW Patchwerk is a REALLY bad test for your dps. The raid composition and how good the other guys are makes a massive difference. You could be in a good guild and down Patch in around 2 mins and have nearly 7k dps. The following week you could pug it and have the clueless present that take 5 mins and DESPITE YOU DOING NOTHING DIFFERENT AND HAVING THE SAME GEAR your dps would be around the 4.5k mark. ie: a third less just because the length of fight is a lot more due purely to the others present.

[Kduruh]

Well, there's a post right here on MMO-Champion forum on the shaman testing where people post their WWS reports. i was actually surprised to see that i'm doing about the same damage as most of those top DPS shamans are with the perfect gear and my gear shouldn't do as much damage because of the excessive hit. By the way... i would like to make 2 things clear :P i meant absolutly no offense to the ones behind DPS sims. Also i don't think i said getting the best in slot gear pre ulduar is an achievement :\

Oh and another thing (big one) and if it's out of context for this thread i'll be happy to make new one and discuss this in a constructive way. I considerer my self an average player (maybe not in gear choices it seems) but i mean in terms of skill. And my question is, since my gear choices are so bad? how come i'm doing about the same DPS or close to the same DPS as the top DPSers in the post mentioned above? i don't raid that much as enhancement since my main spec is resto but i do enjoy doing it when i get the chance. and i don't think i have a WWS report right now that confirms it specially because i got the expertise trinket from malygos after the last time i raided as enhancement which i belive gave me a good DPS boost since i was lacking some expertise and also the use ability if used on the right time can be a nice DPS boost (i kind of lost myself here in the middle) my question is, how come i'm doing about 6k DPS give or take on an average tank and spank boss that has no debuffs that increase their damage taken if i'm losing that much DPS with the excessive hit?

I mean i think it's about the same because although i lose some other stats which make my melee swings not as strong but I hit with much more frequently, same goes for my spells, i don't have as much spellpower since it comes mostly from AP but since i hit more, i get more maelstrom weapon procs and therefore i cast more often, also i pottentially don't have as much crit but since i cast more, i crit about as frequently or more frequently with spells which gives me about the same uptime for elemental devastation which consecutivly gives me a big uptime on flurry, also my guess is, in a raid your AP scales a lot due to buffs though your hit stays the same so although unbuffed it truely deals a lot less DPS, raid buffed you actually lose a lot of damage on each attack you miss. My other guess is also that since i hit more and since Berzerking and static shock don't seem to have a PPM i get more procs that also make up for the lack of AP/crit, etc.

I mean... i know DPS sims are supposed to take this into account, but do they really manage to create the same randomness on all those aspects such as berzerking procs, static shock procs, even the randomness of crits and etc?

I would really like a good justification because my goal just like everyone else's is to maximize my DPS and although i'm doing good DPS if i can boost it even more... then it's just GREAT!

EDIT: About frozen power... i clearly stated that i used it when i was testing on dummies on PTR, i never said i used it on bosses or raids or on live servers.

[ralusek]

Well, there's a post right here on MMO-Champion forum on the shaman testing where people post their WWS reports. i was actually surprised to see that i'm doing about the same damage as most of those top DPS shamans are with the perfect gear and my gear shouldn't do as much damage because of the excessive hit. By the way... i would like to make 2 things clear :P i meant absolutly no offense to the ones behind DPS sims. Also i don't think i said getting the best in slot gear pre ulduar is an achievement :\

Oh and another thing (big one) and if it's out of context for this thread i'll be happy to make new one and discuss this in a constructive way. I considerer my self an average player (maybe not in gear choices it seems) but i mean in terms of skill. And my question is, since my gear choices are so bad? how come i'm doing about the same DPS or close to the same DPS as the top DPSers in the post mentioned above? i don't raid that much as enhancement since my main spec is resto but i do enjoy doing it when i get the chance. and i don't think i have a WWS report right now that confirms it specially because i got the expertise trinket from malygos after the last time i raided as enhancement which i belive gave me a good DPS boost since i was lacking some expertise and also the use ability if used on the right time can be a nice DPS boost (i kind of lost myself here in the middle) my question is, how come i'm doing about 6k DPS give or take on an average tank and spank boss that has no debuffs that increase their damage taken if i'm losing that much DPS with the excessive hit?

I mean i think it's about the same because although i lose some other stats which make my melee swings not as strong but I hit with much more frequently, same goes for my spells, i don't have as much spellpower since it comes mostly from AP but since i hit more, i get more maelstrom weapon procs and therefore i cast more often, also i pottentially don't have as much crit but since i cast more, i crit about as frequently or more frequently with spells which gives me about the same uptime for elemental devastation which consecutivly gives me a big uptime on flurry, also my guess is, in a raid your AP scales a lot due to buffs though your hit stays the same so although unbuffed it truely deals a lot less DPS, raid buffed you actually lose a lot of damage on each attack you miss. My other guess is also that since i hit more and since Berzerking and static shock don't seem to have a PPM i get more procs that also make up for the lack of AP/crit, etc.

I mean... i know DPS sims are supposed to take this into account, but do they really manage to create the same randomness on all those aspects such as berzerking procs, static shock procs, even the randomness of crits and etc?

I would really like a good justification because my goal just like everyone else's is to maximize my DPS and although i'm doing good DPS if i can boost it even more... then it's just GREAT!

EDIT: About frozen power... i clearly stated that i used it when i was testing on dummies on PTR, i never said i used it on bosses or raids or on live servers.

i didn't read through this whole thing but i did notice a few things.

that you crit more because you have more hit. that's not true, you don't have to hit to crit. you will not have more elemental devastation uptime because you gear for hit. you could have 100% miss chance and 30% crit chance and still crit 30% of the time.

secondly, you are not going to get more maelstrom procs because of gearing for hit. it's ppm, and the only thing that alters the ppm is haste effects.

you also said berserking is not ppm. it is.

so the point you made about elemental devastation is wrong, and therefore flurry uptime is wrong. your hit is not affecting your spell crit, or your melee crit, and therefore not affecting elemental devastation, so then not affecting flurry at all. if you want to affect flurry, you grab crit rating. that directly affects it through melee crit, and indirectly through elemental devastation via spell crit.

just pointing out those inconsistencies, if you still feel that stacking hit brings you to the best dps possible, do whatever you want. i'm just saying, the logic behind you doing so is flawed

[Deleted]

my question is, how come i'm doing about 6k DPS give or take on an average tank and spank boss that has no debuffs that increase their damage taken if i'm losing that much DPS with the excessive hit?

You aren't losing dps, you just could gain MORE by reducing your hit and gearing for better stats.

I mean i think it's about the same because although i lose some other stats which make my melee swings not as strong but I hit with much more frequently, same goes for my spells, i don't have as much spellpower since it comes mostly from AP but since i hit more, i get more maelstrom weapon procs and therefore i cast more often, also i pottentially don't have as much crit but since i cast more, i crit about as frequently or more frequently with spells which gives me about the same uptime for elemental devastation which consecutivly gives me a big uptime on flurry, also my guess is, in a raid your AP scales a lot due to buffs though your hit stays the same so although unbuffed it truely deals a lot less DPS, raid buffed you actually lose a lot of damage on each attack you miss. My other guess is also that since i hit more and since Berzerking and static shock don't seem to have a PPM i get more procs that also make up for the lack of AP/crit, etc.

Wrong its PPM so doesn't depend on your hit rating at all, it depends on weapon speed. ie: haste effects. You ED uptime depends on crit it has no effect from your hit rating. Hit rating beyond spell hit cap ONLY affects your white damage it has little additional effect other than on hit effects, that is the sole reason people say to gear for other things once you are spell hit capped. You are right about static shock however the additional hit is minimal dps boost to a 6% proc rate, lets say you go all the way and get 100% melee hit, ie: 10% over spell hit cap. That means 10% more white hits which means you get an extra 0.6% (yes less than 1%) more static shock procs. On the other hand if you geared for 10% extra crit instead of 10% melee hit your white attacks would do a lot more damage, your SS would do more damage, your WF would do more damage, your lava lash would do more damage, your Lightning Bolts would do more damage your shocks would do more damage, your ED would proc more giving more melee crit doing more damage. A HELL of a lot better than 10% more white damage and 0.6% static shock procs.

Now ok perhaps the entire theorycrafting shaman community and its hundreds of thousands of hours are testing are wrong and you are right. But...then again perhaps not. Show us some concrete figures and we will listen.

I mean... i know DPS sims are supposed to take this into account, but do they really manage to create the same randomness on all those aspects such as berzerking procs, static shock procs, even the randomness of crits and etc?

I would really like a good justification because my goal just like everyone else's is to maximize my DPS and although i'm doing good DPS if i can boost it even more... then it's just GREAT!

The sim effectively works as follows :

1) Load config
2) Start combat loop
3) if its ready swing MH weapon - rolls random number compares with your chances to hit, crit, miss, dodge, glancing blow etc and gets a result
4) add time to next swing
5) check for procs - roll random number to see if thing procs on crits, hits etc what ever just happened.
6) if its ready swing OH weapon and do the same rolling random number etc
7) check more procs
8 ) check through priority queue to see what's top ability available and do that
9) roll random number for top ability did it hit, crit, miss, etc
10) did that ability proc any other effects
11) if we haven't reached end of combat go back to step 3
12) print results

ie: for every single step of the way it does a random number roll and sees what the outcome is, it does this simulating every single proc and effect in game, it works out every abilities availability at the instance in combat you are at. It steps forward in milliseconds of time, doing each and every calculation as if it were happening in game.

IT SIMULATES - (Seriously if you don't know what the word means please look it up in a dictionary : here's a dictionary http://www.dictionary.com if you don't have a proper paper one to hand.)

It does this for thousands and thousands of hours (I set my config for 20,000 hours) mimicking how the game works every step of the way. Doing every last random number event as if you were really doing thousands of hours of combat. It's tried, its tested to death vs actual in game mechanics, to make sure its accurate. It does model game results extremely well.

Compare this with your somewhat flawed understanding of how some basic game mechanics work? Seriously mate by all means question stuff and understand better that's what we really enjoy doing, questioning assumptions testing new theories and improving all our understanding. Don't however assume that your own testing based on flawed understanding of game abilities is any substitute for thousands of hours of testing that people have put into understanding exactly how the whole mechanics of the class work.

If you want to test stuff and disprove results thats EXCELLENT we REALLY, REALLY want to understand. After all theorycrafting is a science NOT a religion. We test ideas and theories we try to understand better how things work and we throw out old ideas that have been disproved. We don't have blind faith in stuff and are forbidden to ever question the word of the holy men. Specifically I AM NOT a Holy Man laying down the truth, despite being a shaman I'm just a guy who loves to play with numbers, and understand stuff.

[Kduruh]

Well maybe you should have read the whole thing... :P

Of course i get more crits if I have more hit... I didn't say i would get a higher crit percentage... If I have say 30% crit, and if i manage 100 hits in one minute I would get an average 30 crits, though if i manage to get 120hits the the same ammount of time, with the same percentage i would get 36 crits so if I crit more in the same ammount of time, I will have a bigger UPtime on Elemental Devastation/Flurry also... berzerking is a PPM? well maybe i'm wrong about that though when i look at WWS statistics i clearly see a huge diference between tries, also maybe it procs and then renews just a few seconds earlier but well to be honest what I meant wasn't PPM, it was internal cooldown and berzerking doesn't seem to have one as it procs just like I said sometimes one after another after another. Same goes for maelstrom, I meant internal CD like the one WF has, i've maange to get like 5 procs in one second though that's mostly with heroism, but still even without it I sometimes get 3/4 procs at the same time. So is this logic so falwed?

By the way... i tried Enhsim and the values I got were completly off, am I supposed to be raid buffed so it can calculate my chars full potential? because i got some raid buffs on the simulation, the mana regen ones such as replenishment and seal of the wise but didn't really notice the others and though the DPS was similar to the one I do self buffed on the dummy, i got a lot of misses in the test even with spells which really doesn't make any sense.

And one more thing in reply to ralusek, i'm not saying that I'm stacking hit because it brings be greater DPS, I'm just saying that by the values I get, there is no reason not to but as I said, my objective like everyone else's is to achiev the best performance possible, so if what i want is proof that the hard hit cap is a DPS waste.

Ah! one more thing, i ran the EP test on enhsim and the biggest value I got was for Hit rating so... at this point I'm really confused :s

[Deleted]

Well maybe you should have read the whole thing... :P

Of course i get more crits if I have more hit... I didn't say i would get a higher crit percentage... If I have say 30% crit, and if i manage 100 hits in one minute I would get an average 30 crits, though if i manage to get 120hits the the same ammount of time, with the same percentage i would get 36 crits so if I crit more in the same ammount of time

NO NO NO NO NO.

That is NOT how it works.

You have a combat table that is checked each swing. Your white hits have a miss chance, dodge chance, glancing blow chance, crit chance.

So say you have 30% crit, 0% dodge (you are expertise capped), 24% glancing blow chance (cannot affect that figure), 0% miss chance (you have gone wild on hit rating despite what everyone says). Your attack table looks like this...

0% miss,
0% dodge,
24% glancing blow,
30% crit, which leaves
46% normal hit. (100%-24%-30%)

If in say a set period you do 120 swings, 28.8 of them will be glancing (do 70% damage), 36 of them will crit, 55.2 will do normal white damage.

Now if you drop your hit rating down to spell hit rating your miss rate goes up to 10% and your table becomes

10% miss,
0% dodge,
24% glancing blow,
30% crit, which leaves
36% normal hit. (100%-10%-24%-30%)

So since you haven't changed haste or anything you are STILL doing 120 swings in that period, of them 28.8 will still be glancing, 36 will still crit, however only 43.2 will now do normal white damage. ie: 12 of them will have missed.

Do you now see that your crits DO NOT CHANGE, so your ED, Flurry, Berserking uptimes DO NOT CHANGE. If you don't get this basic concept then really you are not going to understand anything else about theory crafting.

[Kduruh]

Ok I understand that now, it works just like a tank's avoidance, If a tank has for exmple 40% dodge, 30% parry and 30% block he will never get hit since the attack will go through all those "stats" before it actually gets to the hit percentage. Ok I get it so just one more thing, as I think I said in the previous reply to this thread, I had some problems getting it working, on which specific directory should I put it? and is there any reason that when I try to run EnhSim.exe I get an error message? I currently have it on the WoW main directory.

[Deleted]

I've answered your PM with specifics on getting EnhSim working.

[Kduruh]

Ok ty