JoL targeted for a nerf?

[Ogemaniac]

Everyone knew it was OP in the right situation the second they killed Saph. It hasn't been nerfed yet because it isn't breaking arenas, and if it's not crazy in arenas it's either going to take a long time or never be fixed.

It isn't OP 1v1 or 2v2 or anything like that. It only becomes OP because it scales with the number of raid-members, which it shouldn't. It is probably fine up to 5-man situations, but it is OP in 10-man and massively OP in 25s. If there were 100-man raids, it would be mega-nuclear-super-duper-OP-from-hell. Fundamentally what needs to happen is that the scaling needs to be removed. I would personally do this with an internal cooldown which would limit how often it could proc across all targets. Four to six seconds would probably work.

If Ulduar is "balanced" around JoL, this can easily be fixed if JoL were nerfed. It's not as if it is hard for Blizzard to lower damage in order to compensate for a smaller JoL.

[Xs]

Which is easier, nerfing 10+ bosses and their hard modes requiring some pretty extensive testing to make sure they've tuned them properly again.
Or leaving it how it is?

Any Paladin thats Judging Light in PvP unless its AV is a tard, Justice is so useful its unreal, uncountable the number of times I've seen little orange flames come out from under someone's feet as I've continued to smash them in the face.
Or a Druid switch from Bear/Boomkin/Tree into Travel only to be crit for 3 more than I was before that while not moving any faster.

[Prentice]

It isn't OP 1v1 or 2v2 or anything like that. It only becomes OP because it scales with the number of raid-members, which it shouldn't. It is probably fine up to 5-man situations, but it is OP in 10-man and massively OP in 25s. If there were 100-man raids, it would be mega-nuclear-super-duper-OP-from-hell. Fundamentally what needs to happen is that the scaling needs to be removed. I would personally do this with an internal cooldown which would limit how often it could proc across all targets. Four to six seconds would probably work.

If Ulduar is "balanced" around JoL, this can easily be fixed if JoL were nerfed. It's not as if it is hard for Blizzard to lower damage in order to compensate for a smaller JoL.

Please don't reply anymore. Thinking that any paladin(that knows how2P) would use JoL in a duel or arena negates any credibility that you may have had.

[Ogemaniac]

Which is easier, nerfing 10+ bosses and their hard modes requiring some pretty extensive testing to make sure they've tuned them properly again.
Or leaving it how it is?

A coder could fix it in an afternoon. It's not hard to see how much JoL is healing for, and not hard to adjust boss AoE abilities downward by a similar amount. Roughly, a 10% decrease in AoE abilities would be appropriate.

Any Paladin thats Judging Light in PvP unless its AV is a tard, Justice is so useful its unreal, uncountable the number of times I've seen little orange flames come out from under someone's feet as I've continued to smash them in the face.

I agree. JoL is not OP in small scale situations and therefore is not useful in most PvP situations. That was my point. It is OP in 25s (and to a lesser degree 10s) because it scales with the number of raid members within range. That is what needs to be changed.

[Muriele]

Everyone knew it was OP in the right situation the second they killed Saph. It hasn't been nerfed yet because it isn't breaking arenas, and if it's not crazy in arenas it's either going to take a long time or never be fixed.

Winner.

[Prentice]

The fact that Blood Aura was removed as a raid buff but JoL was left as is, you have to think that this was intended. The fact that JoL scales with AP/SP and that it heals for quite a bit more than the tooltip was probably not intended but certainly wasn't a concern. If they nerfed JoL so that it didn't scale with AP/SP I wouldn't be upset. Its never going to save anyones life but its a "nice to have" heal.

Complaining about how many people benefit from it is a bad soapbox to stand on. They could just change the spell so that every time it procs for the paladin that judged it, a heal would be cast on the whole party/raid. That would be OP, right?? Not really. Sure, the heal would hit more people(healers that aren't attacking would now get healed) but many fast attacking classes would heal less(Enhance shams, rogues, fury warrs, and ever hunters).

This judgement has not changed. JoL has been there for a long time. A pally brings up how strong it is and now a clearly non-paladin has an opinion. JoW, JotC and JoL were the reasons that ret raided in TBC. Its still one of the benefits of having a paladin, and even moreso, having a ret paladin.

Warriors stack sunders on the boss. 8-12 people in the raid benefit from that. Shadow priests buff the damage of another 6-8 dps'ers. The pally buff just so happens to not increase damage done, but heals anyone attacking that target. Some fights it shines to a glaring degree. Other fights, its negligible. The scarcity of its usefullness hardly justifies QQ'ing about how strong it is when it is of use.

We're still a hybrid class. By all standards, rets are near the bottom of the damage potential scale. There is a reason for that. Raid utility has always been the purpose of a paladin. Nothing has changed.

[Deleted]

I came in 2nd in overall effective heals, right behind our Shaman.

(no surprise really - OP bubbles ftw)

2nd with healing only using jol but the disc priests bubble is op...right...

[Cymocethia]

Judging your healers skills by looking at the healing meters = fail

Healing meters shouldn't exist. It's broken in many ways and gives out false information. The healer toping the meters might not be your best healer if he dies during a crucial part of an encounter. Judge healers skill by reactions to situations rather than meters.

As for JoL: leave it as is. It's necessary.

[Dekool]

By nerfing JoL too much (if they do), they will raise AoE heavy encounter difficulty significantly, and with the rampant nerds they've been applying to Ulduar, I'm not sure if this is exactly what they want to do.

how many rampant nerds did they apply to Ulduar anyways

[Prentice]

how many rampant nerds did they apply to Ulduar anyways

Awesomeness!!

[Xs]

The fact that Blood Aura was removed as a raid buff but JoL was left as is, you have to think that this was intended.

They removed all the Auras, as they were making the specs other than Unholy worthless unless there was another DK as Unholy

Warriors stack sunders on the boss. 8-12 people in the raid benefit from that. Shadow priests buff the damage of another 6-8 dps'ers. The pally buff just so happens to not increase damage done, but heals anyone attacking that target. Some fights it shines to a glaring degree.

SPs/Boomkins buff everyone apart from Warriors, even then it buffs some non damage portions on their utility
And ofc healers

Also everyone is forgetting the 3% crit, which almost no Muti Rogue will ever pick up

[Maneken]

Jol base is balanced and its scales fairly with gears. Dont see any reason to nerf skill, especially when all ppl can benefit in raids.

[Caean]

My problem with JoL is that it's a silly mechanic.

If you had a judgment, call it Made_up_Judgment (MUJ), that put a debuff on a mob that made everyone do extra damage per hit, it would be great and would help everyone.

Now consider that it scaled with int so that it only made sense in a raid setting to have holy paladins use it and it made them top damage meters.

Would it be helpful to a raid?

Absolutely.

Would it be idiotic?

Absolutely.

[Xs]

That would be a nice addition :P
Specially for when you either have 3 Paladins or no mana problems (trash) from anyone in the raid

[Carnivale]

JoL is working fine as it is, and no I'm not JUST saying this as another paladin. It's been said a few times before but the healing recieved from JoL while situationally strong (fights with mass raid damage) will_never be what saves your life in a raid. It will always be your healers. All JoL does is give a nice buffer to your raid healers.

And to those "healing" raiders out there crying about where it can make a paladin land on the healing meters, stop your pissing and moaning and get over it. Any person who judges a healer based off of healing meters alone should seriously re evaluate themselves as a player or go play Cooking Mama.

If you are a healer assigned to a task, say... off tank healing, and the off tank never dies, but you wind up on the bottom of healing meters, are you seriously so retarded that you are going to bitch that other people are stomping you on healing done? You did your job, congrats. Move on. That's not to say healing meters aren't a good way to judge a healer's performance, for the love of god stop trying to use that as the ONLY way to judge a healers performance.

[Prentice]

My problem with JoL is that it's a silly mechanic.

If you had a judgment, call it Made_up_Judgment (MUJ), that put a debuff on a mob that made everyone do extra damage per hit, it would be great and would help everyone.

Now consider that it scaled with int so that it only made sense in a raid setting to have holy paladins use it and it made them top damage meters.

Would it be helpful to a raid?

Absolutely.

Would it be idiotic?

Absolutely.

Would it make you feel better if a holy pally judged light and stood heads above the rest of the healers while the rets/prots judged wisdom??

Not until reading the post above did I realize why this hasn't been complained about before. Pretty fail on my part, but WWS/Recount reports always counted JoW/JoL gains to the attacker. Not the pally that judged. The total healing done was dispersed amongst all those that benefitted and never stood out like it does now.

[belfpala]

If you had a judgment, call it Made_up_Judgment (MUJ), that put a debuff on a mob that made everyone do extra damage per hit, it would be great and would help everyone....

Say hello to...

Also everyone is forgetting the 3% crit, which almost no Muti Rogue will ever pick up

[Caean]

wouldn't make me feel better, but at least it would be more in line with what the class is built around -- healing.

Rets doing that much healing, dumb heals or not -- overheal or not -- is just silly and lazy gamecrafting.

What would I do? Basically nerf JoL (and JoW) a bit, but make it stack.

I would scale judgment of light and cap them so that the more paladins you have judging light on a target, the more healing you get, but cap it so it's not OP.

You don't want a raid of 25 paladins all judging light getting healed for 25,000 a swing.

That way you want multiple paladins on your raid, you want them judging for maximum effect, and 1 paladin doesn't do something to exclusion of others.

[Defaeco]

I think they just need to rework the ability to scale w/ spellpower instead of AP so much. I mean you can still have it increase w/ AP a little bit, but I'm talking more on the level it scales w/ SP now, just swap the weight of the co-efficients.

I think it's kind of silly that you have a HEALING ability scales 10x better for a dps spec than it does for the healer.

Also, being a holy pally myself, I don't think it needs a nerf for holy- ret is the only one that really gets the crazy numbers. One of the justifications for holy not having any significant aoe or hot heals is they can judge light that vaguely fills both of those roles on a small level.

In conclusion, you'll need a nerf that only affects the OP part of JoL (i.e. ret), and not the underpowered part (i.e. holy). The easiest way to do that is playing w/ the AP and SP coefficients.

[belfpala]

I think it's kind of silly that you have a HEALING ability scales 10x better for a dps spec than it does for the healer.

I bet you're the guy who fought tooth and nail to get Sheath moved into the Holy tree, right?

Come together pallies, no need to fight between specs.

Here's the mantra:

JoL is fine. JoL is fine. JoL is fine. JoL is fine.