Redesign subtlety?

[Vennom]

Herro!
I've been thinking that the Subtlety tree might need a redesign. Why? Well, it isn't that stable nor viable anymore imo.
It seems like people are mostly using it as a filler tree, and seldomly go that deep into the spec at all. Sure there are some who go deep down all the way to Shadow Dance, and a bunch of people who use the HAT spec. But quite frankly - those specs have their uses, but are they really comparable to other specs?

Shadow Dance has its nichè - that is great, but it's honestly quite bad when it comes to PvE at high levels. It works a bit in pvp aswell, but again - not as good in high level pvp. It is quite situational aswell.

Honor Among Thieves is brutally bad when you aren't grouped. And in a raid I find it quite silly - the 3 points alone spent on HAT removes almost all Rogue mechanics to make it almost all about using Eviscerate whenever the combo counter is high enough.
To me it's all about those 3 talent points, while the rest of the points aren't as important. I could bet that the 3 points are worth more dps in a raid compared to the 68 other points. I don't have the math to support that bet, but you get the idea.
Too much automation in my opinion.

The rest of the tree has some nice pvp-utility talents and some attempts for pve improvements, but all in all it's flawed. The pvp-utility talents have their use but if a talent tree isnt supposed to be solely for pvp, then the utility talents take up too much space, and picking them up makes you miss out on too many things that make you viable in the everyday playing. The tree is simply way too situational.


Any thoughts? Do you agree? Do you disagree?

SO after reading the first sentence i decided to not even bother reading any of the other posts and tell you straight up how fail you are.

Seriously, what is it with bad rogues today. First the "Final Straw" post and now this.

Lets take it from the top.

Shadow dance - was NEVER intended for end game PvE, just as HfB was never intended for end game PvP. Situational? If you mean that you can't mindlessyly mutilate and eviscerate and blow you CD's in hopes of winning then you are right. Shadow Dance needs to be set up, very carefully, and you have to aware of the environment and the targets CD.

No i dont get your idea, HAT is awsome. ever paired with an ice mage spamming ice lance and watch your combo points pile up? You realize you can generate combo points just by having something targeted right?

SUB was NEVER....EVER.......EVVVVVVVVEEEERRRRRRRRRRRRRR for PVE. That whole sentence is fail

SUB is ALL about utility. Your going to make me bust my head through my wall. SUB is about utility, and setting up a combo.

The tree is situational?? SOME NICE pvp utility talents?
You call MoD, Dirty tricks, camo, elusiveness, initiative, height, prep, dirty deeds, shadowstep all SOME and NICE pvp utility talents?

I am going to come to the conclusion that you are either 1. not a rogue, or 2. are a bad rogue. Rogues have EVERYTHING they need to kill a target, ever tried ganking and pvping as 0/0/0..it works, its viable, and its fun! Because we already have ALL the tools to kill a target. Evasion, dismantle, CoS, sprint, gouge, cheap shot, kidney. These "SOME NICE" utilities you speak of, enhance are "Tools" that we already have. Which makes us "good" rogues more precise at killing off our targets.


Im done with you, Ladies and Gentlemen we have a lost and confused troll in our midst. Please stop the feeding of this troll at once and hope it goes away.

[Vennom]

Ok so now i read everyone elses post.

Again Sub is NOT a pve build.

Also, Deep sub to shadowstep and shadow dance is fine also.

I think people are confusing "hard to play" with "viable"

HAT is also fine. again SUB is not a PVE build. Ever see what HAT does in 5s? you have more combo points then you know what to do with while spamming eviscerates, and when you switch to a target and run to him, by the time you get there, you already have 5 combo points.

Sub isnt your mindless mutilate burst, you need a strategy, a set up, and a precise execution.

[Snopptrollet]

Mr Hot-minded-fanboi here has apparently decided how everything is to be - don't come with your own ideas or thoughts for he will will call you "fail". Oooou..
Seriously though - don't go to the forums right after you've lost a game or two in pvp - the mind isn't ready for constructive thoughts after WoW pvp.

The only good point you managed to put through that pulsating vein on your forehead was that the utility talents are good. Sure they are, but they are still situational.
The rest was more of a rant about HAT again.. that it is "awesome". Again, sure it is awesome, it's kickass, it's supah cool, it's massive, it deals tons of damage etc etc... but really - the mechanics of it sucks game-design-wise, and the value of the points spent in it are completely out of realistic boundries compared to all other talents.

Try cooling off and read the thread again, calmly, to perhaps realize what it is about. You may ofcourse still disagree, which you have every right to, but atleast then you can come back with constructive reasons to your opinions rather than "BOOH-friggety-HOO" - showing your lack of self-control.

[Vennom]

Mr Hot-minded-fanboi here has apparently decided how everything is to be - don't come with your own ideas or thoughts for he will will call you "fail". Oooou..
Seriously though - don't go to the forums right after you've lost a game or two in pvp - the mind isn't ready for constructive thoughts after WoW pvp.

The only good point you managed to put through that pulsating vein on your forehead was that the utility talents are good. Sure they are, but they are still situational.
The rest was more of a rant about HAT again.. that it is "awesome". Again, sure it is awesome, it's kickass, it's supah cool, it's massive, it deals tons of damage etc etc... but really - the mechanics of it sucks game-design-wise, and the value of the points spent in it are completely out of realistic boundries compared to all other talents.

Try cooling off and read the thread again, calmly, to perhaps realize what it is about.You may ofcourse still disagree, which you have every right to, but atleast then you can come back with constructive reasons to your opinions rather than "BOOH-friggety-HOO" - showing your lack of self-control.

Is this for me?

I LOL@U sir.

When ideas and thoughts are made out of stupidity and backed up by bad logic...then yes its fail.

When during the Original Post did you stop and go "did he really say shadow dance is not good for PVE?" OF course its not.

How are utility talents situational? I dont understand this. Ive played rogue since Vanilla, i must be going brain dead. Please explain to me, how a rogues utility talents in SUB for PVP is only situational?

The Original Post was 80% "HAT is Fail" So my reply, 80% of it was how "HAT is not fail"
How does the game mechanic suck? It forces you to be in a group, so you can get the full benefit from it. This is the same logic that bad rogues use with the HfB change. "Sniff, now i cant use HfB while soloing mobs, i have first bleed them, then it only lasts a minute, Sniff..change it back!!! Its too hard!. Where else would those 3 talent points go? If you went PVE for sub, you ONLY do it for HAT, so 3 points are spent there anyway, and if you go PVP for sub then your only other options are what? "waylay"...ok maybe, but imo its useless, especially with crippling poison..."Filthy tricks"...waste of talents points, no match is gonna last 5 minutes for you to be able to use prep again. That leaves you with HAT and enveloping shadows. All i am saying is that i dont even think that the Original Post has tried HAT in the many ways possible, or you at that matter.

I was pretty cool when i read the thread. Its about Utility not being good for rogues and that Sub needs a revamp. I think if you read my comment fully and with a clear head, then you would hae seen all my reasons for each of his sentences.

[Jutteri]

Are you claiming HAT isn't good because all you do is spam eviscerate? Does this mean assassination isn't good because all you do is spam mutilate?

Mutilate is very small percent of assasinations damage

[Guyal]

Sub is fine, its definately not situational, the entire tree is devoted to being flexible and giving you as much utility as possible.

Remeber you dont have to spec all the way down. In TBC I played a vigor/seal fate + hemo build for pvp. Now with the introduction of HaT which is Seal fate for less points, and more effective I can play a cold blood + Shadowstep build. It works and its fun, as long as you can play it properly. Most rogues just dont have the capacity to understand that they're not warriors and going toe-to-toe with everything as sub will just get you killed.

[Amstelkid]

I think what he means is, in classic we could use Sub for nice rupture boost. Cause back then, rupture was the best way to use your AP. In TBC, they upgrade Sub to be fully usefull for PvE. A patch later they nerfed it, so it would been only usefull if you had 'top of the top' gear. Now in WotLK, they made combat your main food-chain for 'easy' raid DPS.

I think its about time, that 'we', as in all the Sub loving rogues, get our sub spec back to what it was! A usefull pvp spec, with some nice 'use full' pve ability's!

And some people just get to fet up with seeing a spec getting buffed, a patch later it gets nerfed. Why? Basicly cause other people complain about it.

I wonder, how many people will quote this.

[Vennom]

Sub is fine, its definately not situational, the entire tree is devoted to being flexible and giving you as much utility as possible.

Remeber you dont have to spec all the way down. In TBC I played a vigor/seal fate + hemo build for pvp. Now with the introduction of HaT which is Seal fate for less points, and more effective I can play a cold blood + Shadowstep build. It works and its fun, as long as you can play it properly. Most rogues just dont have the capacity to understand that they're not warriors and going toe-to-toe with everything as sub will just get you killed.

AMEM! 10/10

Finally, someone that understands the rogue class.

[Vennom]

I think what he means is, in classic we could use Sub for nice rupture boost. Cause back then, rupture was the best way to use your AP. In TBC, they upgrade Sub to be fully usefull for PvE. A patch later they nerfed it, so it would been only usefull if you had 'top of the top' gear. Now in WotLK, they made combat your main food-chain for 'easy' raid DPS.

I think its about time, that 'we', as in all the Sub loving rogues, get our sub spec back to what it was! A usefull pvp spec, with some nice 'use full' pve ability's!

And some people just get to fet up with seeing a spec getting buffed, a patch later it gets nerfed. Why? Basicly cause other people complain about it.

I wonder, how many people will quote this.

I am a sub loving rogue.....and i see no problems with the tree.

When i got my calamity's grasp, i never went mutilate again.

Shadow dance is disgusting, you can insta gib ANYTHING in a kidney shot.

Or if you prefef a shadowstep/coldblood spec, or shadow/imp sprint spec, those are ALL very good.

CD vs CD, the rogue should always win.....unless its a pally

[Snopptrollet]

You don't get the point. And we're not talking about PvP only.
A talent-tree is not supposed to be solely completing the other trees or being for pvp only.
In arenas most rogues are specced 41/5/25, using the Subtlety tree to complete the Assassination tree with some utility - the situational abilities you need to get through the dynamics of a fight. Ofcourse these are great, because in PvP so many things happen that you have to adjust to. This is what makes Subtlety good - but it's still situational since the abilities are used when the situation is right (well, if you know what you are doing atleast).

In PvE, most people are specced with some variant of Assassination (mutilate) or Combat, with only a few talents spent in Subtlety, thus using it as a filler. This time not with the utility talents, but the ones that purely affects dps such as Relentless Strikes, Opportunity and Serrated Blades.

The only reason to why people can be specced as Subtlety in PvE is HAT, because it gives just so much. If HAT were to change to another utility talent or lets say another stun ability - and Subtlety would be as good as worthless for PvE.

I don't mean that Subtlety shouldn't be about the utility, but that it should be a viable choice for both PvE and PvP - still focusing around the utility and style as it has now.

[Vennom]

You don't get the point. And we're not talking about PvP only.
A talent-tree is not supposed to be solely completing the other trees or being for pvp only.
In arenas most rogues are specced 41/5/25, using the Subtlety tree to complete the Assassination tree with some utility - the situational abilities you need to get through the dynamics of a fight. Ofcourse these are great, because in PvP so many things happen that you have to adjust to. This is what makes Subtlety good - but it's still situational since the abilities are used when the situation is right (well, if you know what you are doing atleast).

In PvE, most people are specced with some variant of Assassination (mutilate) or Combat, with only a few talents spent in Subtlety, thus using it as a filler. This time not with the utility talents, but the ones that purely affects dps such as Relentless Strikes, Opportunity and Serrated Blades.

The only reason to why people can be specced as Subtlety in PvE is HAT, because it gives just so much. If HAT were to change to another utility talent or lets say another stun ability - and Subtlety would be as good as worthless for PvE.

I don't mean that Subtlety shouldn't be about the utility, but that it should be a viable choice for both PvE and PvP - still focusing around the utility and style as it has now.

I get where you are coming from, BUT Sub has been and always will be THE pvp build, even since vanilla wow.

You are trying to compare us to the other classes where all 3 trees are viable for both pve and pvp.

Rogues already had a full time PvE tree - combat, then in WOTLK they added Assasination into PvE to give rogues some variety.

HAT would not have even been thought of as a pve build, and no one would have cared about it, if it wasnt for one thing.....HAT was bugged for the longest time. 3 rogues with HAT = 3cbp/s = 10k dps. That is the only reason HAT got the attention it got back then, and why people realized that you COULD go sub for PvE, but the 2 main PvE specs will always be combat and assasination.

To be honest, if they hadn't taken the mutilate requirement away of "being behind the target" then Assasination still wouldn't be so appealing over combat for PvE

Blizzard never though 41-5-25 would stick. HfB in its old state looked very appealing with the ability to get rid of a bleed and up your damage by 9% and refund 15 energy. But everyone realized you can have the best of both worlds, with 41 down to mutilate and 25 down to heightened sense, dirty deeds, AND prep. It was like a dream come true.

Also, i thin your definition of "filler" is different then mine. I see fillers as talents you dont really need, but you need to spend the points to go down to the next tier.

If you are specced 51-13-7, those 7 points in sub are not fillers, Relentless strikes and opportunity are very much needed and viable talents. 25 energy return on finishers and 20% more mut dmg is huge.

If you are specced 51-7-13 the first 7 points in sub are needed again, the next 3 points however, are FILLERS. Because you are "wasting" them to get to the next tier of talents. It doesnt matter where you put those 3 points. And the final 3 are needed for serreted blades.

If you are specced any variation of combat, 18-51-2, 15-51-5 the points in sub are for relentless trikes, which is not a filler, it is needed.

Rogues can not tank and can not heal. We are a single target destruction machine. We have 3 talent trees to choose from on how we can kill with precision. Because of this, blizzard can reserve one whole talent tree just for PvP purpose and the other 2 for PvE purposes.

Imagine how a paladin feels. Theyre PvP and PvE talents for dps are all in one tree, same with the heals. Same goes shamans, druids, and many other classes.

[Anium]

Hunter here so forgive me if I speak out of terms.

One thing I have always wonderd is why the hell arn't all the pve rogues going sub just for HaT. I mean to me that shit just screams dps. From what I understand muti spec or combat is the way forward because it's dmg can be sustained. So yeh, clarification just for interest.

ty in advance

[Vennom]

Hunter here so forgive me if I speak out of terms.

One thing I have always wonderd is why the hell arn't all the pve rogues going sub just for HaT. I mean to me that shit just screams dps. From what I understand muti spec or combat is the way forward because it's dmg can be sustained. So yeh, clarification just for interest.

ty in advance

Blizzard threw in HAT for fun, 3 rogues in the same guild decided to go HAT one day for shits n giggles and found a bug where instead of 1 crit giving each of them 1 combo point, 1 crit was giving each rogue 3 combo points, SO theoretically with the 1s cooldown, those 3 rogues were generating 3 combo points per second. Instead of wasting energy with combo generating abilites, they would just use finishers ALL the time and reach over 8k dps and push 10k consistantly.

Blizzard got wind of this and tuned it back down to normal and "working as intended". Rogues however still went HAT and stacked their group with classes with pets. So 4 toon, 4 pets, 8 chances of crits. It was giving the same DPS count as the bug.

Blizzard got wind of this, and nerfed the combo generation from pets and other stuff and solely kept it to actualy players.

The problem with HAT in progression is that if any of your group members die, you get gimped, because the combo generation comes from your groups ability to crit all the time, but if they are dead...well you get no combo points.

[Snopptrollet]

I get where you are coming from, BUT Sub has been and always will be THE pvp build, even since vanilla wow.

You are trying to compare us to the other classes where all 3 trees are viable for both pve and pvp.

Why shouldn't rogues be compared to other classes? Hunters, mages and warlocks all have 3 specs that are for both PvE and PvP. Ofcourse there are varying results and cookiecutters, but in genaral.
That's the rest of the dps-only classes.

Also, i thin your definition of "filler" is different then mine. I see fillers as talents you dont really need, but you need to spend the points to go down to the next tier.

If you are specced 51-13-7, those 7 points in sub are not fillers, Relentless strikes and opportunity are very much needed and viable talents. 25 energy return on finishers and 20% more mut dmg is huge.

If you are specced 51-7-13 the first 7 points in sub are needed again, the next 3 points however, are FILLERS. Because you are "wasting" them to get to the next tier of talents. It doesnt matter where you put those 3 points. And the final 3 are needed for serreted blades.

If you are specced any variation of combat, 18-51-2, 15-51-5 the points in sub are for relentless trikes, which is not a filler, it is needed.

Yeah I can agree it's confusingly worded - I share that view of what a filler talent is. But what I mean with "filler" in this case is more like "completing" - that it isnt a main tree, but more of a completing/filler tree that you use to complete the other trees with. Just like you complete your Mutilate build with some combat and subtlety talents.
What I mean is that Subtlety very seldomly is used more than just to get HAT or the PvP-utilities, which is sort of why I brought this topic up - I want to bring it up to where it is used more to the point where Rogues have 3 trees for both pvp and pve (Cookiecutters will ofcourse remain though).. And not just to complete the other specs.

Rogues can not tank and can not heal. We are a single target destruction machine. We have 3 talent trees to choose from on how we can kill with precision. Because of this, blizzard can reserve one whole talent tree just for PvP purpose and the other 2 for PvE purposes.

Imagine how a paladin feels. Theyre PvP and PvE talents for dps are all in one tree, same with the heals. Same goes shamans, druids, and many other classes.

I see your point, but hybrid classes are difficult to compare with since they are hybrids - meant to be able to do the different things.
Instead, imagine if the Paladin had their Healing, Prot and Dps trees like they have now but wasnt able to be viable as Dps. (Remember when a ret paladin had troubles to get in a raid?)
Or imagine the drama if a druid suddenly wasn't viable as feral dps - even though they can have 4 different(!) roles, compared to the dps role that rogues have. (Healer, tank, ranged dps and melee dps.)

[Blueriku]

Honestly most of the sub is fine, but its fine because it does good in what its suppose to do pvp. i think certain talent point do need reduction in cost as well as some lvl in viability in pve since all trees can be use in pvp and pve. this is my suggestion;

First, its really silly to have two separate talents for improved stealth. the reason i think is just filler points, but master of deception is a must in pvp and camo is nice to have. Camo is one of those talents that u want but can put in another talent more useful. there is would combine the two talents into one talent and put it in tier 2 for 5 points which would free on point and give u both abilities of the talents.

Secondly i would reduce these talents in cost;

master of sub. to 2 points from 3
Deadliness from 5 to 3
Enveloping shadows from 3 to 2 (even though no one use's it lol)


This way 7 points in total are free and can be use for talents we need. I honestly think that reducing some cost and freeing up some points can actually help the tree. Sub is one of the most complex tree's to balance since it can easily be Op or crap. Right now it's pretty balanced, but some points freed up would help a lot and still won't really make sub OP.

Right now as it stands combat and assassin can have 51, 44 points in it respectively and put the rest in talents in other trees for instance while 51, 54 points are in sub (for fellow shadow dance users like me) that leaves 20-17 points in other trees while assassin you can have 44 points and put up to 27 points in another tree and that a lot to put in a second tree.

The point being is sub has a lot of utility in situations while combat and assin have "Universal" talents that is any situation and that everyone would want and can work with, its either pvp or pve or both sub doesn't really have that. Point reduction is the first step to gain some other points to help the tree out. redesigning it i dunno it may hurt or may help a ton, but i think its pretty balanced i feel rogues as a whole is balanced right now

[Snopptrollet]

The point being is sub has a lot of utility in situations while combat and assin have "Universal" talents that is any situation and that everyone would want and can work with, its either pvp or pve or both sub doesn't really have that. Point reduction is the first step to gain some other points to help the tree out. redesigning it i dunno it may hurt or may help a ton, but i think its pretty balanced i feel rogues as a whole is balanced right now

It doesn't have to be a complete redesign where all the talents are removed and replaced by other abilities/utilities/passive buffs etc, but rather some additions/changes to the functions that are already there and perhaps just a small part of it is in need of a bigger change.

A big difference of PvP and PvE is that in PvP you use alot more utilities and abilities compared to what you do in PvE.
As Combat you barely use stealth at all in a raid for instance, while in PvP it's an awesome tool.
Preparing 2 combopoints on a target with several millions of health that you will fight for many minutes in PvE simply isn't of much use.
Getting extra combopoints when dodging/resisting or when you use an ability that requires stealth is also quite a minor thing in PvE.
Stealth detection and Ambush crits aren't that useful either. (Although the Ambush crit chance is awesome while leveling.)

This is why you think Subtlety is fine when all you actually do is to PvP. Since Subtlety as a tree brings several good things to PvP this isn't strange, but it's still rarely used as the main talent tree.

[Shjade]

Not exactly the right topic for it, but I'm just curious since all the debate about HAT is being thrown around here: do the new DOT-crits count toward HAT points as well? Just thinking about sub-optimal groups for HAT builds to get their work done, maybe trying to stack affliction locks with multiple crit-able dots ticking at once...which wouldn't work if the talented dot-crits don't give HAT combo points.

[Blueriku]

It doesn't have to be a complete redesign where all the talents are removed and replaced by other abilities/utilities/passive buffs etc, but rather some additions/changes to the functions that are already there and perhaps just a small part of it is in need of a bigger change.

A big difference of PvP and PvE is that in PvP you use alot more utilities and abilities compared to what you do in PvE.
As Combat you barely use stealth at all in a raid for instance, while in PvP it's an awesome tool.
Preparing 2 combopoints on a target with several millions of health that you will fight for many minutes in PvE simply isn't of much use.
Getting extra combopoints when dodging/resisting or when you use an ability that requires stealth is also quite a minor thing in PvE.
Stealth detection and Ambush crits aren't that useful either. (Although the Ambush crit chance is awesome while leveling.)

This is why you think Subtlety is fine when all you actually do is to PvP. Since Subtlety as a tree brings several good things to PvP this isn't strange, but it's still rarely used as the main talent tree.

Yeah i definitely agree with you, i dont think the tree needs a redesign. In fact im a sub pvp rogue and i even arena as a sub rogue and i do better or just as good as other rogues in my sub spec. When it really comes down to it sub is a pvp/ survivability tree(In fact i lvled a sub spec it was fun). I think its fine right now just a few things to adjust is all that need to be done.

[Snopptrollet]

About HAT - just like they say that HfB should be reworked since so much power shouldn't lie in one talent, HAT is sort of in the same reasoning I think.

[onfire9123]

should re-design it into a ranged dps spec. ninja-stars ftw