Seal of Justice. Under-rated?

[Painal]

While 2 manning ZG the other day, Hakkar MC'D my friend (ret paladin also), made him use seal of justice on me. This made me think about this seal so i started testing it out.

PvE: On General Vezax trash i decided to try out this seal. IT WORKED WONDERS. The mobs were constantly being stunned, making the tanks and healers life sooo much easier, i couldnt believe i had never thought of it before.
Havent tried it yet but would it also work on Iron Council for the stormcaster?

PvP: Many have said that SoTM is the best seal for pvp aswell as pve. I tested out seal of justice for a while in random battlegrounds (i know its not arena) and found that it procs very often, but due to diminsihing returns on the stun i get a lot of immune messages. This would provide a maximum of 4 seconds fo stun, after which you can hammer of justice for a total 10 seconds of stun. However the real benefit of this seal is that many people dont really know about it. I have seen A LOT of people trinket out of the stun which procs, leaving them open for another stun and a hammer.

Has anyone else being testing with this seal?
If so what do you think about it for utillity?

[IcantHear]

Playing a prot/holy Paladin in arena,I use it frequently to CC other healers.
It's not reliable,but it may give your DD those extra 1 or 2 seconds he need to kill the other DD or it may even interupt a big heal when the other healer think's you're out of interupts.

[Caean]

I have seen A LOT of people trinket out of the stun which procs, leaving them open for another stun and a hammer.

Has anyone else being testing with this seal?
If so what do you think about it for utillity?

For pvp that would be the real utility I think.

Then if you can see them trinket out of the proc stun, maybe cast seal of the martyr/blood quickly for max damage, stun then down and see how bursty you can get.

[Saladur]

when i pvp with prot i use seal of vengence, then switch to justice if i get a some good crits. because vengence is still rolling and there will be no DR on the stuns when i need

[Piscesthepally]

seal of justice in PvP just isn't worth it, the way it is now, seal swapping is too costly. Seals are not what they were in the past. The only time I might ever try to use seal of justice, would be if it was in a battleground and got bored. In serious circumstances, the seal does not have many viable applications.

[Shadowmelded]

I think I`d prefer the pewpew extra damage on blood over justice, in the chance it takes for the stun to proc blood could have pumped out enough dps to have killed that healer (although being a belf, after HoJ I just mana tap to totally lock them down)

To each their own I guess, if it works for you then nice one

[Seamless]

seal of justice in PvP just isn't worth it, the way it is now, seal swapping is too costly. Seals are not what they were in the past. The only time I might ever try to use seal of justice, would be if it was in a battleground and got bored. In serious circumstances, the seal does not have many viable applications.

The seal for me isn't used all that often, as it is a little situational. Lots of switching isn't recommended so if there are a lot of healers about slap this seal on and start /lol macro'ing.

Chasing people down on mounts in PvP with it is where it's at. Not a single opponent has gotten off their mount while using this on them... 100% mount kill...

JoJ is just a gem though.
It works wonders in WSG. 2 healers and a FC... HoW and Rep the healers and JoJ the FC, call for back-up and watch the tables turn...

JoJ coupled with SoJ is just win. Fail dmg, but the cries for nerf are immense

[Possiblyreefer]

maybe if the tank has absolutely NO problems keeping aggro then why not
the reckoning proc should mean it works quite alot

apart from that its too much of a dps loss for ret to use with their slow weapons and no SotM
and incredibly RNG

[Lightstrike]

While 2 manning ZG the other day, Hakkar MC'D my friend (ret paladin also), made him use seal of justice on me. This made me think about this seal so i started testing it out.

PvE: On General Vezax trash i decided to try out this seal. IT WORKED WONDERS. The mobs were constantly being stunned, making the tanks and healers life sooo much easier, i couldnt believe i had never thought of it before.
Havent tried it yet but would it also work on Iron Council for the stormcaster?

PvP: Many have said that SoTM is the best seal for pvp aswell as pve. I tested out seal of justice for a while in random battlegrounds (i know its not arena) and found that it procs very often, but due to diminsihing returns on the stun i get a lot of immune messages. This would provide a maximum of 4 seconds fo stun, after which you can hammer of justice for a total 10 seconds of stun. However the real benefit of this seal is that many people dont really know about it. I have seen A LOT of people trinket out of the stun which procs, leaving them open for another stun and a hammer.

Has anyone else being testing with this seal?
If so what do you think about it for utillity?

I can see how it can be good in PvE, but it's a question of who would use it still...

A retri paladin won't give up seal of blood for some RNG interrupts, nor would a paladin who is tanking give up SoV/SoC.. you would have to be a prot paladin not tanking. So that narrows down the list of situations even further... because of dual spec you're then asking yourself if its a fight where a pala tank isnt needed, why havent they switched to a different spec? So you're basically focussing on fights where you have a paladin who is needed to tank at some point in the fight and at another point is able to dps somethign that needs interrupts and seal of justice works on them.

There aren't many of those situations around but if they occur I can see it being pretty useful.

[cs1082]

I use seal of justice on Iron Council, it works wonders with the caster guy when my shield, hammer or torrent are down its proc saves alot of healers mana, and it procs alot.

[Draco cracona]

maybe if the tank has absolutely NO problems keeping aggro then why not
the reckoning proc should mean it works quite alot

apart from that its too much of a dps loss for ret to use with their slow weapons and no SotM
and incredibly RNG

On a decent amount of fights you could use it assuming that the bosses aren't immune; I assumed that they were generally immune though. Also, reckoning sucks.

[nwo]

Although it would be nice for PVP to use against a spam caster, it would make you sacrifice another useful (glyphed) seal like light/wisdom if you are holy. The reason I do not find seal of justice useful enough to use in pvp is because it shares/wastes diminishing returns with my hammer stun and all other stuns that my arena partner(s) have. I would rather have a reliable 6 second stun than an unreliable 2 second stun which is gonna take time off of my 6 second stun when I do need to use it in a clutch situation.

[Piscesthepally]

Seal of Justice is just too unreliable. If they fixed it somehow;
Your melee attacks will stun the target for 2 seconds. This effect cannot occur more than once every 10 seconds, but is not subject to Diminishing Returns.

So basically, it's got a 100% proc rate, but will only proc once every 10 seconds. Obviously, 10 could become any number that's suitable, provided it's below 21 seconds (Which is the "DR time").

Currently, it's not worth me losing the damage from SoV DoT, as well as the side effect of that being the anti-stealth part.

You just gave me.. a little bit of an idea (PVP PERSPECTIVE). The seal is totally unreliable, If someone asked you what the most useless RnG skill in this game was, you would half to answer Seal of Justice. All the classes that had RnG stuns didn't actually have to sacrifice anything to have them, It couldn't hurt you to have rng stuns If you were a warrior or hunter (when they had them) we have always had to sacrifice if we wanted to try and get lucky stuns. For us to use RnG stuns, we sacrifice a TON of damage. No, I am not about to say "remove seal of justice and give us an rng stun talent".

I wanted to improve on what you said about the whole 100 percent proc, but only every ten seconds thing. I am also going to bring seal of command into this so get ready. What if they redesigned the seal (of justice) to do x amount damage (very minimal, at first) and stack a debuff. The debuff would stack 5 times increasing the damage done from seal and judgement of justice by 5 percent per application (so eventually the seal would be doing 25 percent more damage). Here is the kicker.. in addition to increasing the damage of the seal per application, when you reach 5 stacks of the debuff - your next crusader strike WILL stun the target for 4 seconds, consuming the debuff, and then you would start from scratch. Also, scrap seal of command completely, Give us X new 11 point talent even if it is somthing gimmicky and dumb. Make judgment of justice 100 percent crit on stunned targets. I don't think that would be to bad, the stun would be up enough for it to be useful, and then once you had 5 stacks you would obviously try and plan your next crusader strike a little bit.

Perhaps that is toooo much of an overhaul but I just wanted to share my idea, since you got me thinking a little bit. :P

[Raiss]

It's wonderfull for PVP. As a prot-healers, I have a talent that increases 1 sec the stun made by the seal. I isn't realible at all, but it is so random that people are never ready for it. This can be the final stun that will help finish that healer.
Or even better, that nasty rogue hiting you, you just melee hit him until he get stunned. The rogue probably will think "ok he used his stun cooldown" and trinket. You stun him, HoF, run, AV shield, run. 20 seconds without getting hit.

[Piscesthepally]

It's wonderfull for PVP. As a prot-healers, I have a talent that increases 1 sec the stun made by the seal. I isn't realible at all, but it is so random that people are never ready for it. This can be the final stun that will help finish that healer.
Or even better, that nasty rogue hiting you, you just melee hit him until he get stunned. The rogue probably will think "ok he used his stun cooldown" and trinket. You stun him, HoF, run, AV shield, run. 20 seconds without getting hit.

It shares DR with hammer of justice.. so it's actually even worse as prot (you are specced for a 20 sec. hammer cd already).

Bottom line, relying on RNG is BAD.

[Raiss]

It shares DR with hammer of justice.. so it's actually even worse as prot (you are specced for a 20 sec. hammer cd already).

Bottom line, relying on RNG is BAD.

I know it shares DR, but its quite enough to run away from the melee dps, or stop a cast. And we are not relying on RNG, but it is the best seal to use.

Corruption = waek dot, only used to avoid the target going out of combat. Any decent rogue will be able to dispell this.
Dps seal as a healer = wtf?
Wisdom = Divine Plea full uptime, no need for it. No room for the glyph.
Light = No room for the glyph.
Justice = RNG but procs quite often, don't mess everything with sharing DR. With some lucky procs and you will make a melee dps very angry.

[PalliesThrowStuff]

seal of justice in PvP just isn't worth it, the way it is now, seal swapping is too costly. Seals are not what they were in the past. The only time I might ever try to use seal of justice, would be if it was in a battleground and got bored. In serious circumstances, the seal does not have many viable applications.

Proly is becoming the dominant PvP healing spec for Paladins. My teammate uses Justice pretty much constantly, because he's fighting off one or two DPS at the same time, while me and the rogue work on their healer. It raises his survivability by a fair amount, especially when dumb players use their trinket to get out of a 2 second stun.

I personally switch to SoL every time my healer needs to use Divine Plea to regen mana (Much more important as Proly) hitting two targets with glyphed Divine Storm + SoL is a fair amount of healing, usually in the range of 3k, the equivalent of an Art of War proc on myself, and that's not including what I DO get from AoW procs.

Seal Swapping isn't the greatest thing since lemon meringue pie, but there is a time and a place for it, just because I haven't thought of it doesn't mean it's not a good idea, either. I'm sure there's plenty of times others in this forum seal swap to overcome small difficulties.

[Lumidar]

the Diminishing Returns on the stun would make your Hammer of Justice last like 1-2sec and be a waste of a 1min cooldown (un-talented) in PVP. in PVE it would be VERY, VERY RNG and situational.

[Veliane]

Justice right now is quite pointless, the RNG and the DR with hammer make it awful, the only sight of usefulness it gives goes only to 'Proly' spec'd paladins which shouldn't even exist but by some odd twist of fate it works.
Imo it should be aiming to something like this.


Seal of Justice
14% of base mana
Instant Cast
Fills the Paladin with the spirit of justice for 30 min, giving Crusader Strike and Shield of Righteousness a 100% chance to Interrupt spell casting, this effect cannot happen more than once every 10 seconds.

Unleashing this Seal's energy will deal [1 + 0.25 * SPH + 0.16 * AP] Holy damage to an enemy and reduce the cooldown of your Divine Favor spell by 6 seconds, Repentance by 3 seconds and Avenger's Shield by 1.5 seconds.


That'd make a nigh useless Seal much more reliable for the true reason we use it, if we use it at all, which is an interrupt in a non crazy cooldown at cost of Dps or Healing movility and give the Judgement that extra utility it needs since we can Judge the speed limitation already separately.

The effect reducing the cooldown of each spec's useful spells by 5% is not game-breaking - Best case scenario with Imp Judgement if you keep judging and accounting the time between cooldowns it'd reduce ~5 to 54 seconds out of Avenger, Repentace and Div. Favor respectively.

[drunkenclod]

Well now,

For PvP I wonder..... Let's look at this

vs Mage - Random stun not only interrupts casting but can realy mess up some of the chain nukes.
vs Warlock - Again as a caster this would be quite the annoying random spell breaker
vs Druid - Unless he's ferril caster again and with druids any stun is helpful
vs Rogue - for them it's all about building combo points, I can see where (at least at lower levels) breaking the guys focus with stuns can force a mess up of proper combo point alotment
vs Warrior - Probably not much use there
vs DK - Probably not much use there
vs Priest - Another caster any intterupts could win the game
vs Pally - Not great against ret, against holy better if it happens to break a holy light.

I think I'll try a few games wit this.. my real question is how much less damage would I be doing taking this seal vs SOB? Anyone good at math here?