Balance Druids – The Moonkin Guide

[qft]

If you insist on pointing out our damage on every single very gimicky, uncontroversial fight, then this conversation is over.

the fight is exactly the same for everyone. so why do we pull 12k while mages pull 17k?
i dont know what are you talking about. those logs clearly show we'r very far behind on every fight in togc.

Guys I think he's referring to the Twins fight in particular, which in that case - 10-12k sounds perfectly legit.

hardly. because.

i'm easily topping the mters for most the fights doing at least 10k+ and got 12K+ on twins

btw, proof or gtfo.

[Fonzey]

10k does smell a little optimistic for non gimmick fights =/

[Deleted]

It's not that I don't believe him .. it's just that I'd like to see what you're doing if you are getting those numbers which imo aren't legit ... You said you were with your guild and doing less dps 7-8k which is more around the mark what confuses me the most is you say you do MORE In pugs where the fights are LONGER that makes no sense at all and tbh I think you're being quiet overgenerous to yourself.

p.s. he's not just talking about twins he said 10K+ on other fights and 12k+ on twins (12k is fine enough on twins if you get to stand and nuke) 10K+ on NrB at our gear level atm I'd say that's impossible lol , if it's not please show me how.

[Deleted]

If you insist on pointing out our damage on every single very gimicky, uncontroversial fight, then this conversation is over.

the fight is exactly the same for everyone. so why do we pull 12k while mages pull 17k?
i dont know what are you talking about. those logs clearly show we'r very far behind on every fight in togc.
hardly. because.

i'm easily topping the mters for most the fights doing at least 10k+ and got 12K+ on twins

btw, proof or gtfo.

Because Twins is very random, and depend a lot on what tactic you use. If you run around chasing orbs, you might be lucky, you might be unlucky. We happen to use the cheesy door strat, which means we pass through the fight with very little hassle, and only wipe if we get unlucky combinations (two of the back shields back to back or two light vortex' back to back), and that means our DPS is very constant. This is our log from yesterday: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/n...?s=9619&e=9865.

I realise however, that other people use a more mobile tactic, and if that is the case, then DPS can wary a lot. (I was against using the easy tactic, but we are a bit more focused on getting through and working on Anub, than making a fight harder than needed). We all get the same amount of orbs, but the last few tries, we have all gotten empowered darkness at 3% hp left :P

[qft]

again you totally ignored my post.

the fight is exactly the same for everyone. so why do we pull 12k while mages pull 17k?

i believe that moonkin who did 12k dps wasnt running so as that mage who did 17k.

i dont know what are you talking about. those logs clearly show we'r very far behind on every fight in togc.

every fight in togc. do you really believe that every boomkin in the whole world was unlucky while all those mages\dks\rogues\ferals\etc were very damn lucky? all the times? right?

[Deleted]

Just because you believe it , doesn't deem it to be true.

I wouldn't compare a caster to a melee on DPS as it's a different world , I don't see every mage popping 17k on twins while I'm doing 12k ... do you ?

[foibooze]

I'd like kentucky to teach me how to play, can we have a meeting o nvent some day? = / I got about 350 more sp than u unbuffed, similar haste/crit. I don't push 10k dps on fights that lasts longer than 2 minutes if I can't: stand completely still, not innervate, not battleres anyone + get a bit lucky with crits :'(

[Deleted]

again you totally ignored my post.

the fight is exactly the same for everyone. so why do we pull 12k while mages pull 17k?

i believe that moonkin who did 12k dps wasnt running so as that mage who did 17k.

i dont know what are you talking about. those logs clearly show we'r very far behind on every fight in togc.

every fight in togc. do you really believe that every boomkin in the whole world was unlucky while all those mages\dks\rogues\ferals\etc were very damn lucky? all the times? right?

Your posts confuse me. Could you please make it clear who you are quoting and responding to? Why are you using [ code ] anyways?

Twins is simply not a good fight because of RNG. Some classes are much better at running around and picking up their rotation, and others aren't. We are in the later group. There is also a huge difference between getting Empowered right as you proc eclipse, and getting Empowered right when eclipse falls off, where other classes have a much easier time maintaining their DPS.

Funny thing is, with the twins tactic we use, we eliminate the randomness completely, because we are using the Cheesy Door Strategy. And my my, look at the result: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/n...?s=9619&e=9865

[qft]

your results. under 10k. nothing special.

I don't see every mage popping 17k on twins while I'm doing 12k ... do you ?

i dont see any boomkin doing anywhere near 17k... do you? how is that competetive?

Some classes are much better at running around and picking up their rotation, and others aren't. We are in the later group.

which makes us even less competetive.

Funny thing is, with the twins tactic we use, we eliminate the randomness completely, because we are using the Cheesy Door Strategy.

most guilds do that.

[vissi the cruel]

Hey. my durid just hit 80 yesterday, i am wondering what is the best gear for him before toc? right now i am just looting any cloth/leather sp gear from heroics and putting in hit gems. is there anything else?

[Fonzey]

Hey. my durid just hit 80 yesterday, i am wondering what is the best gear for him before toc? right now i am just looting any cloth/leather sp gear from heroics and putting in hit gems. is there anything else?

Stack hit until you reach 10% on your character pane. 4% from talents (assuming you're specced properly) and 3% from IFF will land you at 17%, the cap.

Then you need to stack SP, Haste and Crit. Haste takes slight priority until you reach ~401, in a raid environment that will cap your Wraths at the 1sec GCD whilst under Nature's Grace.

Try to avoid spirit, it's not that great - but it's occasionally unavoidable.

[Deleted]

your results. under 10k. nothing special.

I don't see every mage popping 17k on twins while I'm doing 12k ... do you ?

i dont see any boomkin doing anywhere near 17k... do you? how is that competetive?

Some classes are much better at running around and picking up their rotation, and others aren't. We are in the later group.

which makes us even less competetive.

Funny thing is, with the twins tactic we use, we eliminate the randomness completely, because we are using the Cheesy Door Strategy.

most guilds do that.

You clearly missed the point of the example. Or you decided that you missed it.

A mage is popping 17k when he is lucky with his orbs. When he runs around and manages to get Empowered several times in the fight. Because of that, the fight can be very random. We eliminated that by using the cheesy door strat. If one person gets an orb, EVERYBODY gets an orb. We got our first empowered at 4% health left on the twins, so our DPS throughout the fight was only with the aura on. It matters not what my DPS is, but merely that it was completely equal to most others, because everybody was in the same boat.

Seriously, whats up with the [ code ]'s? It looks really, really silly.

[qft]

just check those logs. we'r far behind on every fight in togc

[Deleted]

just check those logs. we'r far behind on every fight in togc

What, so now you just stopped replying to arguments?

[Deleted]

Qft , seriously dude... what are you on about ???

[qft]

what arguments? you totally ignore what i'm telling you. check logs. we'r far behind. _nowhere_ near competitive. what else do you need?

[Deleted]

I have shown you logs where we are not behind. Reality, check.
I have shown you simcraft showing that we are less than 5% behind the top DPS spec. Theory, check.

What the hell more do you want?

[qft]

your guilds logs are nothing. i can show you logs where i'm topping metters. it doesnt mean sh1t. check those wmo logs. tons of logs. all the same. mages\dks\rogues.

I have shown you simcraft showing that we are less than 5% behind the top DPS spec.

i kinda missed that, can i have a look please?

[FourofaKind]

(ive been assigned to the add-FFing, ice patch-downtaking moonkin for the fight though )

Ice patching takes a moonfire or a wrath, so thats not too difficult, also if your raid is smart, they are having ranged DPS constantaly Tab casting to get orbs near them as opposed to having one dps run around like a kid with downs in disney only shooting ice.

Also, wtf do you mean "Add-FFing". I can only assume you mean casting Faerie Fire on an add, and the only reason you MIGHT be doing this is either for your own 3% crit buff on an add that should not be alive for more then 45 seconds (max) or for the 5% armor debuff for hunters, Melee dont attack any of the adds in TOC and casters dont need the 3% hit on level 82s (the highest level an Add will be in TOC, Ony, and most of Uldaur) so if you are doing it for hitcap, l2pwow .

Excuses are like assholes, everyone has them and most of the time they are full of shit

On a side note... 2pc 10/ 2pc 9 post 3.3? Or go for 4pc 10 off the bat?

[Deleted]

your guilds logs are nothing. i can show you logs where i'm topping metters. it doesnt mean sh1t. check those wmo logs. tons of logs. all the same. mages\dks\rogues.

I have shown you simcraft showing that we are less than 5% behind the top DPS spec.

i kinda missed that, can i have a look please?

The Simcraft can be found here: http://code.google.com/p/simulationc...SampleOutputT9. Details can be found here (WARNING! Large page, might crash your browser :P). Shows specs (no DK's, for some reason) in BIS on an optimal fight, and their optimal DPS. Sidenote: I see that the simcraft was updated since last i saw it. Everybodys numbers have increased a little bit. The file was last changed three days ago.

The petty guy would note that "Moonkins are halfway down the list!!1one", but anyone with a brain would see that while rogues top the meters with 10511 DPS, moonkins are close with 9854 DPS, just 657 DPS behind. This currently leaves us 6,6% behind the very top DPS, a pure anyways, under the best circumstances. When arcane mages was on top we were about 4,6% behind them, but it is such a small difference. If people are calling us "unable to DPS alongside with others" because of 650 DPS, then people really need to pull the stick out of their arse.

So according to EJ theory, our class is quite on par with other DPS classes.

The way you go about searching for logs with moonkins in is bad. If you look at any random fights, there are many, many factors that you have to take into account:

- Length. Those raids with super high DPS will have short fights. The shorter the fight, the higher DPS.
- Raid stacking. A raid might be stacked to support a specific class.
- Gimmick fights. I don't want to see another link to an Anub fight, followed by a claim that we suck.
- Skill. When you look throgh random fights, you don't really know if the moonkin in question has a clue.

What I did instead was to take a look at the highest DPS moonkins on various fights, and look at how they compared to their guild members on that particular fight. Nobody stacks the raid to comply their moonkin, after all. What i found *repeatedly* was that the moonkins with the highest damage on the particular fights was right next to the other raid members, often in top 3, or on top.

There are several things to keep in mind:

- Length. We are not looking for "the best fights ever", which is only a small percentage of all the raids. This allows us a more varied overview of moonkins performance.
- Raid stacking. Through this, we get the general cut, and a balanced raid group.
- Skill. By looking at the moonkins with the highest DPS, you ensure that the moonkin you are looking at actually has a clue about what he is doing. You can then safely compare his performence to his raiders, without having to question if he knows how to DPS efficiently.

So according to WOL's, our class is quite on par with other DPS classes.

I have linked my own guild logs, where i am directly on par with my other DPS'ers. The argument "Well, your DPS'ers suck" is defeated by our progress, and the arguments put forth here. There are still some fights where we fall short (gimmick fights) but on the average fight we are quite equal.

The last argument we had (previous page) you pointed at our mages *not* doing 17k DPS on Twins. I explained to you how we used a tactic that made sure that everyone got the same amount of orbs, and that none of us actually got Empower until at 5%. We then eliminated the random chance factor, and by that showed that moonkins was straight on par with others. The combat log shows that there is a 7% difference between me and the top DPS, and that seems quite close to the 6,6% difference shown on the Simcraft chart, and can also be explained by gear. Top DPS'ers was paladin/warrior/DK (with me coming fourth) and they even had the benefit of splash damage abilities.

So according to personal experience, our class is quite on par with other DPS classes.

Lets summarise:

According to EJ theory, our class is quite on par with other DPS classes.
According to WOL's, our class is quite on par with other DPS classes.
According to personal experience, our class is quite on par with other DPS classes.

Ice patching takes a moonfire or a wrath, so thats not too difficult, also if your raid is smart, they are having ranged DPS constantaly Tab casting to get orbs near them as opposed to having one dps run around like a kid with downs in disney only shooting ice.

Also, wtf do you mean "Add-FFing". I can only assume you mean casting Faerie Fire on an add, and the only reason you MIGHT be doing this is either for your own 3% crit buff on an add that should not be alive for more then 45 seconds (max) or for the 5% armor debuff for hunters, Melee dont attack any of the adds in TOC and casters dont need the 3% hit on level 82s (the highest level an Add will be in TOC, Ony, and most of Uldaur) so if you are doing it for hitcap, l2pwow .

On a side note... 2pc 10/ 2pc 9 post 3.3? Or go for 4pc 10 off the bat?

Im not sure i understand the first line of your message. It could be because we use a different tactic, but why would any ranged be tabbing about and fire at the orbs? What i am talking about is, when he burrows, the one to get targeted runs south, i run along a bit and take down a patch furthest away. The target gets Hand of Protection and when that is about to run out, he crosses the patch. While he's doing this, i can go back and clear the adds in the north. The sparks are at the south west, and the next target runs east/north east. When the spikes pass under the frost orb in that area, i shoot it down, the target gets HoP, and he runs over the patch when HoP is about to run out. The third person to get targeted simply kites him, and Anub usually comes up right next to the frost patch in the north. This way we only use 2 patches each burrow, and we actually have a spare patch floating around by the time we reach phase 3.

Yes, i pop imp FF on all of the adds. We figured that since moonkin AOE fall short, i could pop FF to reduce their armor a bit. I dont know how you guys handle Anub, but OUR melee (rogues, for example) are using fan of knives, and we saw an improvement in the time it took the adds to go down. Besides, by now i have perfected the art of FF'ing, so by the time the adds reach the tanks and Anub, i have more or less put up all, and can start AOE'ing anyways.

On a side note: I was reading through EJ yesterday, and was quite dismayed to find that, at the moment, it looks like we can only equip 4pt10 when we have 4x 264 (or whatever the ilevel is - i forget). While 4pt9 ilevel 258 is slightly better than 2pt82pt9, the tier 10 set bonuses are quite weak, so the big guys are saying that we will be stuck with 2pt8 for a long time - but we still have a lot of theorycrafting to do, and things might change (i find it very likely to see a t8 nerf incoming soon anyways). Will stay tuned