Do Melee have 'the edge' in Ulduar 25?

[amk]

1- no pun was intended
2- not looking for QQ from Casters
3- not interested in what you 'think', but what you have 'experienced'; if your guild isn't clearing 25 man Ulduar, don't bother posting.

What I AM wondering about is if, in the overall picture, the Melee have an advantage over Caster DPS in 25 man Ulduar. Obviously some fights favor Melee over Casters, and there are some fights that favor Casters over Melee (imo anyways). But overall, can you get more damage out of a Melee then a Caster these days?

The reason I ask this is that the DPS in my guild is pretty skewed. The top 7-8 DPS'ers are always the same people, and they are all Melee. They include Rogues, Death Knights, Rets, Enh Shamans, and Fury Warriors.

At times one of our Warlocks will be up near the top, but this is a very rare occurance. The Hunters, Shadow Priests, Mages, Ele Shamans and Boomkin are never competitive with the Melee, regardless of the fight.

So has Blizzard mistuned the encounters / gear progression and mistakenly given an advantage to melee DPS, or are the Caster DPS in my guild just not as good at WoW as the melee?

[Kiradesu]

should be the other way arround all you ranged are slacking, with ulduar gear lock should easily put out up to 7k dps 25

[Thaurr]

It depends on the encounter, there are loads of things that either buff from a ranged spot or buff magic only. Also there is a lot of melee-hating abilities on bosses. However melee has the advantage of not having to cast (except 0.5s Slams from Arms Warriors). Really boss dependant, it's in good balance imo.

[Sning]

1- no pun was intended
2- not looking for QQ from Casters
3- not interested in what you 'think', but what you have 'experienced'; if your guild isn't clearing 25 man Ulduar, don't bother posting.

What I AM wondering about is if, in the overall picture, the Melee have an advantage over Caster DPS in 25 man Ulduar. Obviously some fights favor Melee over Casters, and there are some fights that favor Casters over Melee (imo anyways). But overall, can you get more damage out of a Melee then a Caster these days?

The reason I ask this is that the DPS in my guild is pretty skewed. The top 7-8 DPS'ers are always the same people, and they are all Melee. They include Rogues, Death Knights, Rets, Enh Shamans, and Fury Warriors.

At times one of our Warlocks will be up near the top, but this is a very rare occurance. The Hunters, Shadow Priests, Mages, Ele Shamans and Boomkin are never competitive with the Melee, regardless of the fight.

So has Blizzard mistuned the encounters / gear progression and mistakenly given an advantage to melee DPS, or are the Caster DPS in my guild just not as good at WoW as the melee?

Your ranged are just bad then.

[Kittenpower]

lol melee dont have an advantage over anything... each fight has mechanics that can skrew either of the classes over

except FL :P

if your ranged arent pumping out the dps try new rotation/specs to get more dips or even better gear

[telemain]

The reason I ask this is that the DPS in my guild is pretty skewed. The top 7-8 DPS'ers are always the same people, and they are all Melee. They include Rogues, Death Knights, Rets, Enh Shamans, and Fury Warriors.

Overall casters and melee should be doing about the same. If your melee are usually beating your casters it just means your melee are better. To counter the guy above, it does NOT mean they are bad. It could be that your casters are good and your melee are GREAT, only you and your fellow raiders would know that.

If your melee are ALWAYS topping DPS, okay... then your casters are bad. If your casters aren't topping hodir by standing in flames and lightwells, then something is pretty wrong.

[Iammighty]

My guild cleared 10-man, and didn't clear 25 yet, but I don't care, I'll post anyway.

Only situation when melee DPSes have advantage is trash mob AoEing.

The top DPS [and damage done] during bosses is always (excluding Yogg-Saron)

3 Warlocks,
1 Hunter,
1 Arcane Mage.

Sometimes Rogues, Warriors and DKs are doing fine, but honestly they're never in first 3.

[Pheonixis]

Doesn't it depend on, you know, the person behind the screen?

Just wondering.

[bockbear]

You say nothing about group composition. If the melee is getting all their possible buffs, but for some reason the caster dps aren't, there is really no comparison. However if you have a lock, a shadow priest, a mage and a moonkin, there is no reason that the buffs shouldn't be up on the boss (unless they are being asked to focus 100% on something else for some reason.

There seem to be some fights which are better for melee, depending on your strat. For us, we only DPS one arm at a time on Kologarn, but the other arm and the body can get splash damage from melee (while I think only a fire mage will be getting any AOE from his standard spells).

[theomegapoint]

Flame Levi - N/A

Ignis - Casters and melee should be doing about the same, given equal gear and skill. Very little movement involved. Obviously classes that most benefit from the haste buff after Slagpot might do a bit better.

Razoscale - I cant see how casters would not do better in this encounter... melee has a lot of movement between mobs and the boss, as well as having to avoid flame patches, unless the casters are getting bombed more frequently and messing up their rotations.

Deconstructor - Depending on how your guild manages adds, melee might be doing a bit better, but in my guild at least everyone is about the same.

Kologarn - Melee could possibly be doing better, since it is basically stand there and whack the guy till he's dead, but if they run with low exp they might lag behind some skilled casters because of dodged/parried attacks.

Iron Assembly - Should be about even, both groups have to worry about the same things. A mage might top the charts becuase of the shield of runes steal.

Auriaya - Melee could be doing better, as they are not bothered by the kind of movement that fight requires. The defenders pounce also interrupts spell casts.

Hodir - Should be equal. Casters just stay near fires and grab light beams every chance you get.

Thorim - Meh, this is really up to chance. SIngle target will do better in the corridor while aoe will be better in the arena. For the actual encounter, it should be equal.

Freya - Should be equal, again both groups have to worry about the same things.

Mimiron - Ranged could be doing better, only having to move during rockets and plasma bursts, whereas melee has mines, rockets, plasma bursts, overloads, fire novas, etc.

(I'll stop there, since I havnt had enough experience on Vezax or Yogg to say anything of those fights)

[amk]

lol melee dont have an advantage over anything... each fight has mechanics that can skrew either of the classes over

except FL :P

if your ranged arent pumping out the dps try new rotation/specs to get more dips or even better gear

Gear isn't an issue, as all the Ranged were around when we farmed Naxx 25 ad nauseum. We had similar results back then except that

a) Fury Warriors were pouring OP on their breakfast cereals
b) Rogues were nerfed 'to the ground' so hard that not even the Elemental Shamans could see them

But the Ret Paladins, Enh Shaman and DK DPS were all generally outperforming the casters.

In Ulduar there are obvious advantages given to melee in some fights.

- XT's heart
- General Vezex (if you aren't called to interrupt, a melee can /afk through that fight)
- Kologarn (eyebeams wat?)
- Ignis (spell lock wat?)

But are there fights out there that are particularly good for Casters? (I've never played a caster DPS). Which fights should I be keeping an eye out for to expect exceptional performance from our casters?

I've been hearing a bit of grumbling from the melee; the word 'carry' comes up alot. I'm just trying to see if their bellyaching is valid.

You say nothing about group composition. If the melee is getting all their possible buffs, but for some reason the caster dps aren't, there is really no comparison. However if you have a lock, a shadow priest, a mage and a moonkin, there is no reason that the buffs shouldn't be up on the boss (unless they are being asked to focus 100% on something else for some reason.

There seem to be some fights which are better for melee, depending on your strat. For us, we only DPS one arm at a time on Kologarn, but the other arm and the body can get splash damage from melee (while I think only a fire mage will be getting any AOE from his standard spells).

That's fair enough.

Our Casters have never been without any buff. When we didn't have a Boomkin in the raid we had Elemental Shamans. We have pretty much always (99%) had a Shadow Priest around, as well as Resto Shamans with all the required talented totems.

The Melee is equally stacked, with a Feral Tank / Fury Warrior for Crit, Enh Shaman / DK for Str of Earth Totem / Horn / Windfury / Talons, Ret Paladin for 3% damage (no moar Ferocious Inspiration, gg Blizz @ nerfing BM).

All in all, I can't say that one side or the other's performance has hinged on comp; we have pretty much always had ideal buffs for both types of DPS.

EDIT: Actually we run with mutliple Rogues who ToTT each other, so I guess that's one buff the melee give each other that boosts their DPS.

[yaamaan]

Hi. I'm a lock, and my guild has cleared uldu25.
So, imo, goes like this:
Caster fights:
-Vezax
-Hodir
Melee fights:
-Razor
-XT-002
-Kologarn
-Ignis
-Auriaya
-Thorim
Fights with no adventage:
-Yogg
-Freya
-Mimiron ( Well, fight is harder for Melee but they don't do less damage )
-FL
-Iron Council
Don't know about Algalon yet :P

Why are hodir and vezax caster fights? Buffs we earn.
Why are all other fight melee friendly? More fiendly to melee's AOE, and cleaves.

[bockbear]

Yes, Razorscale is highly melee unfriendly.

XT can be a toss up, and Ignis is somewhat awful with his interrupts, and pretty much only ranged can kill the frozen adds (which can result in a significant DPS loss for 1-2 people).

Typically our mages/locks are top DPS, hunters close 2nd, shadow priest/boomkin and melee are next for most fights.

[amk]

My guild cleared 10-man, and didn't clear 25 yet, but I don't care, I'll post anyway.

Only situation when melee DPSes have advantage is trash mob AoEing.

The top DPS [and damage done] during bosses is always (excluding Yogg-Saron)

3 Warlocks,
1 Hunter,
1 Arcane Mage.

Sometimes Rogues, Warriors and DKs are doing fine, but honestly they're never in first 3.

While I appreciate your reply, the reason I was asking for Ulduar 25 is because Melee generally scale very well with buffs.

In a 10 man the dynamics are different, as there are less buffs to go around.

Doesn't it depend on, you know, the person behind the screen?

Just wondering.

That's what I'm trying to figure out. Our melee are good, no question about it. There are some casters who are 'not as good' imo. But my problem is that all the melee are on top, and all the ranged (incl. Hunters) are on the bottom.

[Brakaa]

We have the same issue, but it's really just our mages/spriests are bad I think.

Honestly, where should the mages be at in terms of dps anyway? Also, given lag/fps problems (which is their excuse) would it be better for them to spec arcane, arc/fire, or FFB?



yaamaan,
I think you're spot on except for mimiron, which is definitely a caster friendly fight (minus the spell pushback in phase 2/4, which I think is much less annoying than moving out of aoe past land mines after playing the fight from both angles (DK/moonkin))

[Proletariat]

Your mages/locks/hunters should be more competitive on the charts, but the rest probably will lag behind your melee.

Razor and Ignis are fairly equal, although our Arc Mage who usually tops has add duty. I find XT to be more melee biased due to Heart, but this is a Spriest POV, and all I have to pop then is Shadowfiend rofl

Kolo is pretty melee-favoured due to incidental damage done to arms from Heart Strikes, UH Blight, Divine Storm, etc, with the exception of the one or two casters that AoE the rubble. Council is more favourable for ranged due to the movement required in the fight. Auriaya might be more melee-favoured just because of the Feral's interrupts (highly annoying) as well as incidental melee AoE.

Freya, Thorim, Mimiron is about even. Hodir is caster-favoured.

Vezax is caster-favoured, although Melee has an easier time. and Yogg is fairly even as well.

The total comes out to:

Melee - 3
Casters - 3

=P

[theomegapoint]

Have you actually tried Ulduar though?

Wait... didn't you basically agree with me on everything but minor nitpicky stuff?

Idk what ranged you guys are running with, but flame jets for our casters are no problem. Cut one spell and cast instants while in the air if you got em. Melee dps loses out while in the air too, since hit hitbox stops about 1/3 of the way up his body. Once you have a feel for the fight, you get a kind of sixth sense as to when jets are going to come, and can tailor your rotation to that (imo, same with many other bosses that use abilities at "random" times).

For Razorscale, unless there's a sentinel, grouping up the adds lets ranged aoe them down. Most melee "aoe" abilities have a limited number of targets they can hit, not to mention most have fairly long CDs relative to the spammable aoe casters have (Fan of Knives excluded). DS and bladestorm are capped on 4, sweepping strikes, bladeflurry, heart strike, and cleave only hit 1 additional target. Our ranged far out do our melee on this fight.

[EndGame]

Only fights that 'favor' melee are the ones where 'free' damage is applied to another target.

You are all forgetting that alot of bosses have some kind of ability that forces melee to move/adjust/be looking out for something. Mostly because melee cannot spread out like casters can. A few examples:

Mimiron is a great example (mines/shock).
Iron Council overload/rune of death.
Hodir (stacked melee = more chances of ice blocks dropping); irrelevant if you have the entire raid stack.

Now casters have their own fun to look out for; but usually the stacking portion means they aren't looking out for it nearly as much. Vezax is a great example; avoiding mark/shadow crash. HOWEVER... they're given a substantial buff to their damage once avoided.

I think it's fairly equal; but I still think melee have to be better at situational awareness than casters do most of the time

[theomegapoint]

I think it's fairly equal; but I still think melee have to be better at situational awareness than casters do most of the time

No offense but I think that's a bit biased. Yes ranged, when you tally up all of the fights, dont have as many "oh shit get the fuck out of/away from it" moments, but generally casters are chosen to clean up adds, or focus fire down something, cutting their dps. Also the miniscule movment it usually takes for them to avoid something can really mess up a rotation thats heavy in castbars (looking at spriests mostly here). Then again there are some melee rotations that are pretty tight in GCDs - blood dk really sticks out.

As far as melee doing better at avoiding easily avoidable things (like void zones lol) - I chalk it up to experience. Through most of vanilla and bc, casters got to stand in one place and do their thing, while melee had to be the busy ones. Now its flipped on many fights, and casters aren't used to that.

[Nythious]

My girlfriend mentioned ranged DPS having problems competing in Uld for DPS. It's a fairly simple equation. While melee dps can move and fight at the same time with little to no interruption in their physical DPS. When you move as a caster, not only do you lose your current cast.. For example

Just doing ff mages
You start ffb, 2 seconds in you realize you gotta move or your gonna get toasted.
You move and start your next ffb. So far you've lost DPS for nearly 5-6 seconds or more depending on how long you have to move. In this mix of events, you've potentially lost 2 ffb and 1 pyroblast and possible cooldown on LB. . . you shouldn't on LB if you're decent. That can total to near 30k damage because a caster can't move and attack similar to a melee DPS.

For Melee
Much of the time you spend moving it's 'around' the bosses hitbox. Any decent player can keep their attack routine in fairly decent shape while moving around a boss. If they have to get back into the hitbox. DK's have some ranged insta-cast dps to fill in lost damage, Warriors have charge/intercept or intervene and charge back in, Rogues can sprint back in, Paladins may be able to manage a few ranged judgments depending on how far they have to move.


I think the over all consensus is that:

Moving on a Caster is much more detrimental to their DPS than moving on a melee class. This is only of course if the fight doesn't require constant movement without hitbox range.