Yogg +0 World First Kill - Exodus Suspended 72H

[facebook]

Not sure if I would call it an exploit, even tho it is, but you gotta admit there's a giant diffrence. The shadowpriest in question had a short ammount of time to react and I doubt any information was passed between the DI bug happening and the shadowpriest using the soulstone. He saw a window to escape an endless wipefest on a bugged to bits encounter and took it, so in reality, the shadowpriest exploited but it wasn't a guild decision like in the case of Exodus and Yogg+0.

It's semantics I know, but I atleast doubt I'm wrong when I say that the two scenarios were diffrent. As a weakass reallife example, there's manslaugther and there's murder, one has a weaker penalty.

I can agree that there is a difference to what ensidia did vs. what exodus did. Regardless of the mindset of the priest in question, the exploited kill should have been handled in some way by blizzard. To my knowledge however, nothing was done about it. And to go with your "weakass" which is actually a good example, there are penalties in both manslaughter and murder, one is in fact weaker but there is a penalty none the less. Restated, to my knowledge, no action was taken on ensidia, or the priest in question.

[Aleom]

It isn't black and white, the surronding circumstances need to be considered.

I rather trust blizzard to do what's right, atleast they probably aren't biased, than anyone on this forum.

I agree, Blizzard has little to gain from being biased so they're the best judges. I'm simply stating that, due to many of the examples posted and what they consider to be or not to be an exploit has been rather inconsistent.

But let's do that exercise and look at some surrounding circumstances in many cases, here's just a few examples:

Flower Power on 2 minute Hodir ---- Considered not an Exploit
Flower Power on (say) Freya, or Iron Council --- I'd wager it would be considered an exploit, but that's just me.

Bone Armor solo of Military Wing --- Considered an Exploit
A mage or two, in a full raid, spellstealing Bone Armor to increase their DPS --- I don't believe this should be considered an exploit as this event is identical to that of a raid of 8 mages with FP for 2-minute Hodir which is entirely acceptable.

If (if) we agree that Flower Power on any other Ulduar boss would be considered an exploit, then that would make little sense for Hodir to be an exception. The same way that we would say a mage soloing Military quarter is an exploit, but the exception to that rule would logically be if he was just doing it in a normal raid environment. I don't think Blizzard would agree with me there, which, again, makes be believe their "rule sets" for determining exploits involves some form of archaic Alchemy and possible virgin sacrifices...

[Aureliana]

I have lost faith in all humanity reading this post. I now think the only good people are the ones who don't judge entire countries based on:
A) a video game
B) 25 people in a video game

I just want to sleep now. I'm safe there O_O

When you study statistics they teach you that any analysis with a number of specimen < 100 is not reliable

[Deleted]

I can agree that there is a difference to what ensidia did vs. what exodus did. Regardless of the mindset of the priest in question, the exploited kill should have been handled in some way by blizzard. To my knowledge however, nothing was done about it. And to go with your "weakass" which is actually a good example, there are penalties in both manslaughter and murder, one is in fact weaker but there is a penalty none the less. Restated, to my knowledge, no action was taken on ensidia, or the priest in question.

With this, I agree. But you also have to consider that Blizzard themselfs knew at that point that the encounter was bugged to hell, and that's probably why no actions were taken.

I like to belive that the same can be applied to Hodir hardmode, Blizzard, without saying anything ofcourse, admitted a fuckup on how it was done, and spared Ensidia due to how much attention the endgame PvE race brings to the game and their new content.

Yoggsaron+0 is another example of where an encounter is impossible but made possible by using a bug. Now, you could claim that for that reason alone, Exodus should be spared. They did however try to pass it off as a legit kill, probably without even reporting it, which surely has an effect on the punishment.

There are also cases where people charged with manslaughter has walked away, nearly without punishment. They are few however and it requires quite special circumstances, but it has happend. I think it tends to be called justifiable homicide.

[Naissa]

Personally I'm glad they didn't tell everyone about the exploit and give them props for that. Telling Blizzard about it rather than everyone is a much better thing to do to avoid having other people exploiting it. Makes less work for Blizzard too. Part of me wants to say they should have said something on their website about it, but I really don't understand how they could have said anything without revealing that there was in fact an exploit. Then having a bunch of other people go out and try to find said exploit, some being successful, and creating more work for Blizzard's banhammer.

No idea if Exodus' comments about Ensidia cheating are true, but if so I guess there is no honor left in rai...yeah I can't even say that without laughing.

[Takwin]

Wow, lots of over-reactions, and lots of bans.

First, I do NOT think they should have been banned at all. They should hotfix it, let them keep their title and mount. Creative use of game mechanics.

If they are going to ban people, they should take a MUCH harder look at Ensidia and a number of other guilds, as there seems to be at the very least rampant speculation going on that there has been a history of exploiting.

And for fark sakes, who cares what country any of these people are from.

[Herecius]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFdY75sZ_LY

1:42 "We are gonna get banned"

GG Exodus

...
Not.

I think the most hilarious part is that despite the encounter suddenly becoming trivialized and absurd, people were still dying in that video.

[Diabolist]

Completely different scale. How in the world can you compare sex offenses to a video game?

Edit: Barely awake. Edited my post.

Your completely missing the point,
The point is that even if the person does something wrong and admits it that they should still be punished for it.

[Deleted]

I agree, Blizzard has little to gain from being biased so they're the best judges. I'm simply stating that, due to many of the examples posted and what they consider to be or not to be an exploit has been rather inconsistent.

But let's do that exercise and look at some surrounding circumstances in many cases, here's just a few examples:

Flower Power on 2 minute Hodir ---- Considered not an Exploit
Flower Power on (say) Freya, or Iron Council --- I'd wager it would be considered an exploit, but that's just me.

Bone Armor solo of Military Wing --- Considered an Exploit
A mage or two, in a full raid, spellstealing Bone Armor to increase their DPS --- I don't believe this should be considered an exploit as this event is identical to that of a raid of 8 mages with FP for 2-minute Hodir which is entirely acceptable.

If (if) we agree that Flower Power on any other Ulduar boss would be considered an exploit, then that would make little sense for Hodir to be an exception. The same way that we would say a mage soloing Military quarter is an exploit, but the exception to that rule would logically be if he was just doing it in a normal raid environment. I don't think Blizzard would agree with me there, which, again, makes be believe their "rule sets" for determining exploits involves some form of archaic Alchemy and possible virgin sacrifices...

There are other factors that need be considered, I sadly have to repeat myself: Blizzard did fuck up on Hodir, made him an impossible cockblock after guilds had killed him. They probably had understanding for Ensidias action and therefor decided not to punish them for it.

The spellstealing of Bone armor did not just increase a mages DPS, it made them immortal and capable of soloing bosses. Not the same playing field, it would be if the mages that spellstole the buff could've engaged Hodir alone and killed it, but as that wasn't the case, it's not in the same playing field.

It's iffy, and no one can give complete answers to why guilds are treated diffrently, but I personally belive that Blizzard goes with a case by case standard when dealing with the PvE race, rather than the mass bannings of Leviathan+4.

Either way, I'm fairly sure Blizzard isn't biased becuse Ensidia is sponsored. I doubt the Prince of Dubai or whatever/whoever the hell is sponsoring a computer game crew has the influence to affect Blizzard.

[facebook]

With this, I agree. But you also have to consider that Blizzard themselfs knew at that point that the encounter was bugged to hell, and that's probably why no actions were taken.

I like to belive that the same can be applied to Hodir hardmode, Blizzard, without saying anything ofcourse, admitted a fuckup on how it was done, and spared Ensidia due to how much attention the endgame PvE race brings to the game and their new content.

Yoggsaron+0 is another example of where an encounter is impossible but made possible by using a bug. Now, you could claim that for that reason alone, Exodus should be spared. They did however try to pass it off as a legit kill, probably without even reporting it, which surely has an effect on the punishment.

There are also cases where people charged with manslaughter has walked away, nearly without punishment. They are few however and it requires quite special circumstances, but it has happend. I think it tends to be called justifiable homicide.

Enjoyed the debate with you but there comes a time when it has to end. Unfortunately work will be calling before I can get much sleep so I need to jet.

I leave you with the bolded text. According to the post on exodus' website, they indeed reported the bug. I however, cannot confirm nor deny that they did.

Hopefully some sort of Blizzard response can shed some light on the grey area we call "clever" or "abuse" of game mechanics.

[Fyssas]

Edit (Fisker): Post removed

[Deleted]

Enjoyed the debate with you but there comes a time when it has to end. Unfortunately work will be calling before I can get much sleep so I need to jet.

I leave you with the bolded text. According to the post on exodus' website, they indeed reported the bug. I however, cannot confirm nor deny that they did.

Hopefully some sort of Blizzard response can shed some light on the grey area we call "clever" or "abuse" of game mechanics.

After this, I'm gonna stop trying to see diffrences between the exploit themselfs and instead look at what caused the exploits to be used in the first place.

And yea, I too enjoyed this debate and I'm awaiting a bluepost, to be frank this matter kinda deserves one.

[Fyssas]

TBH I feel sorry for Boubouille and the moderators. You can see this thread getting shorter and shorter.

Some cookies for the team!

[Deleted]

EU here and even though this is all really funny I do believe Ensidia should've been banned alot more for exploit usage.

[Deleted]

EU here and even though this is all really funny I do believe Ensidia should've been banned alot more for exploit usage.

Yea, maybe they should've been, but they weren't. It's not up to us to call the shots, all we can do is speculate becuse Blizzard doesn't go offical about matters such as these.

Trust in Blizzards ability to manage their own game and it's community, they're a respectable company with lots of credibility, there's no reason to accuse them of bias or bad calls unless you can somehow prove it, without knowing all the facts as you're an uninvolved observer.

[Aragen]

I say kudos to Exodus for coming up with something the other 11,000,000 people playing the game didn't even have cross their minds. Grats on the E-Fame and world first kill guys.

[Herecius]

After this, I'm gonna stop trying to see diffrences between the exploit themselfs and instead look at what caused the exploits to be used in the first place.

And yea, I too enjoyed this debate and I'm awaiting a bluepost, to be frank this matter kinda deserves one.

In both cases, the exploits were used for a (in my opinion) legitimate reason. The encounters are impossible. Hodir as he was, without the Flower Power buff, was totally impossible, just as Yogg+0 is totally impossible without evade-bugging the adds.

The difference is the way it was handled, and the factors beforehand. First off, the Hodir encounter had been buffed to impossible status... AFTER other guilds had already done it, thus destroying the fair progression of the 'race to world firsts,' which Blizzard has said they rather like. They were also quite pissed that they had to finish the encounter that way.

In Exodus' case, they first claimed that they'd cleared it with a combination of god-given luck and amazing skill (that blog post will haunt them forever), and when they were caught, put up a bitchfest about it. That's the primary difference behind the reasons of the exploits.

[Erenien]

Yeah I dunno, think people are losing sleep over this, worse things have happened in the world. Still think a ban is kind of extreme especially since blizzard equally screwed up when designing the fight.... I mean they were paying blizzard to play impossible content, I'd want my money back lol.

[Regen89]

I say kudos to Exodus for coming up with something the other 11,000,000 people playing the game didn't even have cross their minds. Grats on the E-Fame and world first kill guys.

Has less to do with them being smart, and more to do with other guilds who found it in 10 minutes and decided they were above exploiting.

[Boubouille]

Ok ... Thread has been cleaned from the most annoying stuff.

Please think twice before posting in this thread, you will most likely get (perma)banned for nothing (seriously), that's the only way we can keep things under control for the moment. Also please try to not post huge pictures or stuff like that.