Paladin tanks

[Surfd]

/boggle

What kind of crack are you smoking? For the longest time, AoE taunts were all Paladins had, and when it comes to AoE tanking in all its myriad forms, no other class dominates like the Protection Paladin does.

While i agree with everything else you had to say about the crap he was posting, he WAS right about this.

Paladins do NOT have an AoE taunt. Taunting 3 mobs off of a single target /= AoE taunt, it = a stupidly designed taunt that almost never gets used to it's full potential.

Druids and Warriors both have a long cooldown taunt that can grab EVERY mob in range of them, be it 2 or 50, should something go south and they need to do so. Paladins have no similar move. Maybe blizzard didnt think they would need one since they hold threat in Multi Mob situations REALLY easily, but this does not change the fact that that the move is not there, and that a prot paladin is screwed in a stiuation such as when another tank tanking a large number of mobs dies and the prot needs a snap move to pick aggro up on all of them before they kill the 6 different people they now have targeted.

[Grob]

Masstaunt works like mocking blow
So it isnt really taunt
And paladins crying about wars have mass taunt... Wtf are u talking about?
Ill trade this stupid masstaunt(excuse for having TERRIBLE aoe aggro) for your aoe abilities

[Raledon]

Played tankadin in ulduar (taking a break due to guild disband), with me we had another warrtank, another palatank and a droodtank in the guild. The other palatank was relatively new,to the guild and had slightly worse gear than me, not to mention he was the "newcomer".
In most fights I was picked to be the addtank while the warrior maintanking and the druid dpsing on fights that required 2 tanks.
That is the guild's general tanking composition.

First, you will be mostly the addtank if you are good. Not because paladins<warrs, but because paladins>>>warrs. to make it clear: I can solo sarth3d addtanking. I can solotank Thorim's arena(as long as the other people are not retarded).

After some time, the warrior left due to loot issues. about at that time the guild population dropped, so we had to do 10men. I've had no problem tanking the bosses till mimiron (included), hardmodes included. Just a note- the only gear I have from ulduar 25 are a couple of rings.
I found I have mana issues at general vezax (might be because I had only one point in spiritual attunement), which impacted my threat.

Generally speaking, my threat is better than warriors as far as I can tell. Most warriors use hit/expertise trinkets and such, while I'm in pure surviveability gear.

Hope this will give you some insight about palatanks in endgame guilds.

Oh one last comment- as one of the first posters said, palatanks can tank as good as any of the others. If anybody tells you otherwise, check their brainwires and update if needed.

[blahism]

about that comment before where Warrior was QQing about you taunting boss of him, personally me as Paladin tank hate when Warriors are really taunting boss of me all the time just to keep up with treat.. I look on Omen he is far back then Bam taunt.. and again I just out tps him then again after 10 sec he taunts.. and so on.. But with my alt Paladin I had no problems to outtps my guilds MT warrior, OT DK and second OT Paladin.. even my gear is weaker and I am alt but still I can pull more tps then they do.

Ifs funny when a Palidn QQ's about warriors when he has no concept of warrior rage management and doesn't realize his own spells are indeed taunt (threat generation) comparible spells in the end anyway.

BTW, ghostcrawler swears in 3.2 warriors won't have this issue.. its just terribly funny people like you QQ about it and brag at the same time.

[EzriEU]

/boggle

What kind of crack are you smoking? For the longest time, AoE taunts were all Paladins had, and when it comes to AoE tanking in all its myriad forms, no other class dominates like the Protection Paladin does.

a) Paladins do not have an AE-taunt. Period. Righteous Defense hardly qualifies as "AE" since it works on a maximum number of targets, three to be precise, and even that only if all three are attacking the same target (which is of course not the paladin himself), since it doesn't work off the mob but off the player the mob is attacking. There's been a time where a Paladin actually had to macro the ability with a target-modifier if he didn't want to switch his target for single-target taunting. Additionally, this overcomplicated tank-switches like for example with the 4 Horseman (if you switched at all), since the Paladin necessarily had to "taunt" first, otherwise he'd end up with both mobs.

b) Paladins used to be the undisputed Kings of AE-threat for all of TBC. Many Guilds didn't even manage to do Mount Hyjal without a Paladin-Tank (although it was certainly doable). Since WotLK however, the other Tanks have caught up, so you'd be hard pressed to argue for absolute Paladin dominance any longer. Since at least AE threat generation is very distinct for each Tank-class, there are advantages and disadvantages of each tank. The Paladin's disadvantage clearly is the stationary character of Consecration, his most powerful tool for AE-threat. I've seen more than one Kologarn-Rubble run through Consecration without being affected by even a single tick. This doesn't happen with an intitial Thunderclap, for example.
But whatever - it's only a slight disadvantage, not an inability, and that's all I said. Don't twist my words!

Wrong again. The correct thing to say is don't/avoid healing when tanking end-game content. But if all your healers are down, there's no reason at all not to at least try. Especially if you're rocking Sacred Shield and whatnot. And, especially when soloing old content, self-healing is pretty damn mandatory from time to time. Last year (when 70 was still the cap and the encounter was designed for level 70s), I easily soloed the Headless Horseman -- something I couldn't do if I didn't fucking heal myself. In fact, the changes they made to pushback and the (now dated) change to Blessing of Sanctuary is exactly what made soloing the Horseman possible.

a) I never advised not to use Sacred Shield.

b) If in any given Raid-encounter all healers are down, a Paladin-Tank's healing will change the outcome in the most gimmicky situations at best. This would mean something like Hodir not hitting you during his Flash Freeze cast, Mimiron's Leviathan MK II being stunned during the VX-001's Laser Barrage or Vezax still catching up to you when you've just kited him. In every other imaginable case, the additional dmg you take for not being able to Dodge / Parry while casting will be far greater than the outcome of your Holy Light. Plus, given the current mechanics of the class, in almost all situations you will have Divine Plea up and thus have your healing cut by 50% anyway. Think the matter through before you post!

c) Soloing old content is not exactly the focus of this thread. Every Tank can do that - some better, some have a harder time. Especially the Headless Horseman is a terribly useless example, since he can be soloed by a Ret Paladin just as easily and that's not eveb talking about Holy. Come on - you really don't want to argue for a Tanks abilities by referring to outdated content, are you?

And wrong again. A simple macro that throws up Divine Shield and instantly /cancelauras it is infinitely useful, particularly for wiping away debuffs that Cleanse or any your healers/other party members can't remove.

That's exactly what I said - that there's situations where Divine Shield can be useful to a Paladin-Tank and where it can be used cautiously. I've done so and I do so myself. Again, don't twist my words - and again - think it through! You will always have to keep the downsides in mind, since DS will block your Divine Protection for two minutes. There's use for it in Ulduar, no doubt about that - but you'll have to think about when and how to use it.

Seriously. What crack are you on? Paladins = #1 AoE tanks. Period. End of discussion. No room for counterpoints, especially ignorant ones like that. "Still manage to get the job done." Oy.

You know what the use of a discussion is? If not, you may want to look it up.

In short: It's about people disagreeing, exchanging arguments and making a case for their point of view. That's, by the way, the opposite of "OMG, what crack are you on - you have to be of my opinion otherwise you suck!"

To make my point clear once again: Paladins have exceptionally good AE-threat. Once they grabbed hold of their mobs, it's very hard to out-aggro the Paladin. They probably have the best AE-threat of all Tanks currently. However, this also comes with a downside: immobility. Since consecration is responsible for the larger part of a Paladin's AE-threat, this suffers if you have to move the mob-pack. Additionally, it is possible that fast-moving mobs move through Consecration without being affected and thus forcing the Paladin to grab aggro otherwise. This is a downside, this is a disadvantage compared to tools like Thunderclap, Shockwave, Swipe or Blood Boil for example, since they are all mobile. To reiterate: I did not say that Paladin AE-tanking was in any way inferior or lacking, I just said that the other tanks have definitely caught up and that their mechanics have in some situations an advantage over the Paladin's. However, Paladins still manage to get the job done (unlike, for example, the other tanks in TBC).

Jesus. If you're going to spew ignorance like this, please reconsider and shut the fuck up.

Way to have a discussion... but if you don't know any better... /shrug

[Raledon]

regarding the AOE-tanking, Paladins also got the best mitigation due to relativily high block chance, which reduce the damage nearly as much as a dodge/parry (not to mention after 3.2 hits).

[Dedweight]

I'm just going out on a limb and assume your friend is a Warrior tank or has never ran with a properly geared/specced Paladin, that being said if he does happen to be a Warrior I understand why he said what he did, the Warriors on the US World of Warcraft forums seems to be full of people whining about Warriors not being as good as the others and are concerned they will lose their tanking position against the other tanks.

This is complete bull shit though, if their going to lose their spot because another class seems to be better they should probably look into what they are doing wrong as a warrior especially seeing as how many warriors make the class work and do extremely well endgame as a tank.

I have a Warrior that I tank on occasionally in Naxx and haven't encountered too many issues considering my tank gear isn't the greatest. Warriors do need so changes, HStrike spam anyone?

Now this is where the discussion starts (finally). He said no. Why ? Because he states that Paladins are unable to comptete with Warrior / DK when it comes to end-game tanking. For heroics and beginner-raids he says they are more than acceptable but when it comes to hard-mode and real end-game stuff "Paladins lack the CD's and mitigation to withstand the punishment." To this end he said the best i could hope for is an OT in MOST situations. Even then he said that paladins cant hack some OT duties.

As already mentioned your friends a moron, now I haven't done much in 25man Ulduar as a Paladin tank(cleared through Freya) so take that as you will but I have done most all hardmodes in 10man while Main Tanking. The only fight I have reasonable issues staying alive on is Iron Council with Steelbreaker last, he still hits pretty hard considering and even now I'm pretty sure the other tanks have similar issues with survivability on him and Ignis 4 minute but I only died because healers slacked a little, everything else I haven't had issues with. My off tank has almost always been a DPS Feral Druid or DK.

Contrary to these statements, Blizzard insist that their changes mean that any class with a tanking tree would be a viable tank.

Every class is viable as tanks, some tanking specs slightly more viable than others in some situations.

So what are your opinions on this? Am i destined for average-ness (sp?) if i am to continue with the paladin? Because I really could not stand a Warrior as a main.

As I mentioned above all tanking specs and classes are viable, some specs/classes work better than others given the situation, all of which still need some tweaking to make them more "equal."

Your only bound for being an "average" tank if you play at an average level OR the guild doesn't allow you to prove yourself to be better than the others which either means you are an average player or the guild isn't for you.

[Deleted]

paladins can tank *almost* any encounter. just like warriors, feral druids and death knights. anyone who says otherwise either has not played with a prot paladin since 3.0.2 or has been living under a rock for the last year. either way, they are blatantly wrong.

copying the WoWwiki article about paladins as tank:

An effective tank of any class must accomplish two things:

1. Hold aggro on monsters the group is fighting
2. Mitigate damage from those monsters enough to stay alive

holding aggro? we are threat monsters. no other class can surpass our threat (apart from gimmicky encounters).
damage mitigation is high enough: 12% passive reduction, 15% with plea, 21% for spells, block cap, 30% extra reduction for damage that brings you below 35%, our cheat death,...

i say we are quite capable tanks

as a side note, would the AD revamp save the paladin from the killing effect of steelbreakers meltdown?

[wibu]

as a side note, would the AD revamp save the paladin from the killing effect of steelbreakers meltdown?

Doubtful. As far as I can remember Guardian Spirit was ineffective way back when we were progressing on it. That was months ago though so things may have changed, but most likely not.

[Chiv]

I'll try to sum it up in a few short sentences.

As of 3.2 PTR

Paladin's advantages:
- Best single target TPS & DPS (easy 3.5k DPS on Patchwerk 25 from your humble servant, back several months ago in 3.0.x without Ulduar gear)
- Best sustained AoE TPS while stationed
- Good TTL (Time To Live) under worst case scenario
- Self cleanse ability (Steelbreaker's Falcon Punch, anyone?)
- Block cap allows to add BV to Effective Health against physical attacks => single best Small Adds tank (Sartharion-like fights)

Paladin's disadvantages:
- Limited tools for burst AoE TPS & mobile AoE TPS (Sartharion's adds: longest to live under, hardest to gather together)
- Vulnerable to silence & mana drains (General Vezax says he don't like mana using tanks)

[Evereghalo]

One thing to note is that on the PTR, aside from the bugs that are happening with AD:

1) The damage reduction of AD only reduces the damage that takes the paladin below 35% so the first 65% is unmitigated by AD. Which doesnt make it OP like it would have been if it reduced all damage taken on any hit that would have taken the paladin below the threshold.

2) When the Guardian Spirit Ability procs and leaves a 2min debuff on the paladin, the original damage reduction from AD is also LOST. So when the paladin gets back to 30% health, as it stands now it will no longer be mitigated by 30%.


And on a final note, the only reason the DK ability Will of the Necropolis was nerfed was bc it was O freaking P for a dps DK with all their healing abilities to have an ability like they did. AND blood DKs get Vamperic whatever as the second CD they get for going deep in there tree.

Learn the facts, before you go off blabber about what being OP.

[pomterri]

paladins can tank everything. except 75k dmg in 1 hit. (or maybe they can with buffs etc) As I again say, for 10 man zerg groups we need a tank which can buff the raid, There is only 1 tank who cant buff = warrior. (except 3k hp) We need 1 healer(which is shaman is suitable). We prefer physical dps for zergs. Pala tank = free BOK, Feral dps(which is me) doing 6k dps atleast, Rest is rogue warri dk etc, Shaman healer for bloodlust.
Lets come to the point, when you need tank , Dk pala warrior druid all have its own benefits. PALADINS CAN TANK

[Shurakai]

paladins can tank everything. except 75k dmg in 1 hit. (or maybe they can with buffs etc) As I again say, for 10 man zerg groups we need a tank which can buff the raid, There is only 1 tank who cant buff = warrior. (except 3k hp) We need 1 healer(which is shaman is suitable). We prefer physical dps for zergs. Pala tank = free BOK, Feral dps(which is me) doing 6k dps atleast, Rest is rogue warri dk etc, Shaman healer for bloodlust.
Lets come to the point, when you need tank , Dk pala warrior druid all have its own benefits. PALADINS CAN TANK

Remember Nihilum!

"Paladins can't Tank" xDD

Maintankadin users may remember their recruitment thread ^^

Shurakai - Protection Paladin, Mting since Karazhan

[holaadios]

i am ignorant too.

Sorry but that is what you are.

You find dps boring, and find anything interesting with a class that just needs 2 buttons to tank? ???

Warriors are more versatile, dynamic got more tools (always have)

Nice try at trolling though

[Shurakai]

Sorry but that is what you are.

You find dps boring, and find anything interesting with a class that just needs 2 buttons to tank? ???

Warriors are more versatile, dynamic got more tools (always have)

Nice try at trolling though

I lol'd at that ^^

Btw, tanking is always more challenging then dpsing independant of class. Period.

Nice try at trolling though

[DX272]

LOL pallys cant compete with Dk/Warriors in end game content thts a good one fucking pallys are amazing Threat is OMG geez i dont kno what ur friend is thinking lol...

[jai151]

You find dps boring, and find anything interesting with a class that just needs 2 buttons to tank? ???

This is one of the most misinformed statements I've ever heard. There is no comparison at all between the number of buttons you push as a tank and the ease of playing a dps. A one button tank is harder to play than the dps with the most complex rotation you can think of. Why?

Because when a DPS screws up their rotation, they lose a little DPS. When a tank screws up just about anything, people die.

[skrump]

As it sits right now on live

Dk/druid are the tanks of choice
Paladin/warrior are pretty much gutter trash

Come 3.2 Paladins and Dk's will be swapping places leaving Dk/warrior as gutter trash.

You really do not have any competition from warriors unless blizzard gives them some added damage reduction or avoidance through talents like they are doing with the paladins and even then the paladin is ahead on threat/damage dealt while maintaining a solid lead on aoe tanking.

as for Dk's there nerfs are pretty severe so I doubt you will see them tanking again for another patch or two.

I could really care less which class does better I got all 4

[Deleted]

As it sits right now on live

Dk/druid are the tanks of choice
Paladin/warrior are pretty much gutter trash

Come 3.2 Paladins and Dk's will be swapping places leaving Dk/warrior as gutter trash.

You really do not have any competition from warriors unless blizzard gives them some added damage reduction or avoidance through talents like they are doing with the paladins and even then the paladin is ahead on threat/damage dealt while maintaining a solid lead on aoe tanking.

as for Dk's there nerfs are pretty severe so I doubt you will see them tanking again for another patch or two.

I could really care less which class does better I got all 4

warrior tanks are one of the best tanks for when it comes to reliably picking up adds in encounters like sartharion 3D, due to instant snap aggro (TC, SW) and infinite single target taunts (vigilance on sarth tank). a paladin has 2 taunts (and exorcism, but let's not bring that as a taunt, since it is not a taunt), one of which taunts 3 mobs. BUT on sartharion, if you have a holy paladin healing with RF on, he will take aggro of ALL the adds, who are easier to pick up for any tank (except druids, but noone puts druids on add tanking at sarth). and since they don't evade bug, this is just a creative use of game mechanics, and not an exploit.

[Koffie]

I did not read all of this but what I do know as I played a warrior tank in the last expansion (TBC) up till Illidans council BT and beeing now between a protadin and a holydin and still kept up on the needed info.
Like other are saying already our TPS is incredible on both multi targets as single targets but when multi targets are involved where we need to move a lot our concecration makes it harder then most other classes.
About gear we need the same things as warriors and the gear a DK tank wants we also like very much (except 2hander ). About couldowns then yes its already mentioned and in my eyes we are missing one or partly that is, the usage of Salvation is not always a choice we can make.
Then the mostly used thing that non tanks will compare the severall classes with is Health. With upcomming DK health nerf they are in my eyes getting in par with others. A druid always has most but he is getting nerfed, sometimes up to several %, in his avoudance. We do have the only one that when we are lower on HP we will take less damage. People forget that making it basicly a huge amount of extra Hp can be counted for that. Also we are now the only one who can keep up the 102.4% avoudance all the time on bosses and most of the times on trash too. Partly ofc this precentage is with block making incomming damage less with thousands of damage per hit.