Dodge nerf for bears IN 3.2

[getefix]

Time for my guild to start gearing out tanks before everyone else

[Alski]

To clear things up a bit, dodge isn't our only form of avoidance. Once you hit the point of diminishing returns, using defense(miss) to add more avoidance is better point for point.

Druids don't stack defense so its hardly a factor (and the point where defense comes better is still not achievable with current gear or). Its basicly just a flat 5% miss because of the little bits we pick up on rings/neck is canceled out by the bosses level. to reword it for you "its our ONLY form of avoidance that actually matters since it hardly changes"

The interesting thing will be how this affects our perception of defense gear... since both dodge and miss from that will be unaffected by this change (as it is written now) and each point of agility will be worth less to begin with, it seems that the break even point will be much lower than it is now. So defense will become a much more desirable stat than it is currently.

Update:

So i found the old values in one of my previous posts.
Here go a few things to note first off
1∙ The original Values & math comes from EJ, i updated them myself to show what they will be in 3.2
2∙ The Base value of a Night Elf with the appropriate buffs is 103 agi
3a∙ K = druid constant
3b∙ D = the old linear system. Value before DR. 40.288 is how much agi per dodge
3d∙ 40.288 is how much agi per dodge (before DR) we will get come next patch with all buffs/talents
4∙ Base dodge of a naked NE in bear form with the right talents is ~17%


Here goes most of the math for those that understand. Eddited to add in Kings, SoTF + imp MoTW (and the new 15% increase)

Part 1.

1/c = 0.0085555
K = 0.9720
D = Dodge from agi (gear + buffs - Base) / 40.288
Druid A: 2941.024 agi (gear + buffs - Base)
Druid B: 2981.312 agi (gear + buffs - Base)
Druid A / 40.288 = 73
Druid B / 40.288 = 74

1/z = 1/c + K/D

Druid A :
1/z = 0.0085555 + 0.9720/73
1/z = 0.02187
z = 45.72% dodge with DR

Druid B :
1/z = 0.0085555 + 0.9720/74
1/z = 0.0276143
z = 46.10% dodge with DR

at this point(73-74% dodge shown on your char sheet from just agi) we can see that 40.288 agi only gives (46.10 - 45.72) 0.38% dodge instead of the original 1% that it would give us if we didnt have any other agi
just bear with me here youll see after the next part where this value fits in


Part 2.
Ok here we have a druid. This particular druid has a choice of taking 123 agi or 123 defense rating (same item value apparently) 4.9185 defense rating = 1 defense skill at lvl 80
- 123 defense rating = 25 defense skill = 1% dodge + 1% miss (at zero DR) = 2% avoidance

now this druid has SoTF, kings and Imp MoTW.
- 123 agi x 1.06 x 1.02 x 1.1 = 146.29 agi = 3.63% dodge (at zero DR) = 3.63% avoidance



but now Druid A from part one has a choice of taking 123agi or 123 defense rating

- 123 defense rating = 25 defense skill = 0.38% dodge + 1% miss = 1.38% avoidance
- 123 agi x 1.06 x 1.02 x 1.1 = 146.29 agi = 1.38% dodge = 1.38% avoidance

with this we can see the point where Defense > agi provided you currently have no defense on your gear.

In conclusion, unless you have over 91% dodge according to your character sheet (74% from agi + ~17% base) you dont need to worry about defense and since that's unobtainable you can totally forget about it until T12 or any such time you get close to 3k agi :P.

∙ Little note from me, i was a little surprised it was actually this high, seems like its jumped about 25% since i last calculated it but then again that was right at the start of WoTLK without talents or buffs

[Sunshine]

3d∙ 40.288 is how much agi per dodge (before DR) we will get come next patch with all buffs/talents
...
Druid A: 2941.024 agi (gear + buffs - Base)
Druid B: 2981.312 agi (gear + buffs - Base)
Druid A / 40.288 = 73
Druid B / 40.288 = 74
...
- 123 agi x 1.06 x 1.02 x 1.1 = 146.29 agi = 3.63% dodge (at zero DR) = 3.63% avoidance

I'm still trying to go over part of the maths again, but I feel like something is wrong here. The (pre-patch) numbers on EJ say 38.537 agi = 1% dodge, given hotw sotf and imp motw, or 35.034 agi = 1% dodge, also given kings. This to me suggests on *gear*, not on character sheet -- it doesn't make sense that if I have 2k agility without kings, then suddenly get kings to have 2.2k, the amount of dodge I get from agility changes.

So with the change, this should be 40.289 agi per 1% dodge with kings, as your math suggests, but I don't understand where you get the last number I quoted. If you have 123 agi on a piece of gear, you should just divide by 40.289 -- as I said above, this should already account for all of your buffs. You're double-counting to multiply by them again. So instead of 3.63% dodge, you're down to 3.05% at zero DR.

Continuing to read...

Edit: Ok, read a bit more. So following my previous maths, you shouldn't be looking at the 40.289 number given the character sheet. According to another EJ post, the original lvl 80 agi to dodge ratio was 41.667 agi per 1% dodge. This will change to 47.84 agi per 1%. To verify...

Earlier I showed that 123 agi -> 3.05% dodge at zero DR.
On your character sheet, you would have the mentioned buffs, to get 146.29 agi (as you said earlier).
146.29/47.84 = 3.058% dodge at zero DR.

So Druid A, who has 2941.024 agi, goes from 70.6% dodge pre-DR before patch to 61.47% dodge pre-DR after patch.

2941.024 / 41.667 = 70.6
2941.024 / 47.84 = 61.47
1/z = 0.0085555 + 0.9720 / 70.6; z = 44.80
1/z = 0.0085555 + 0.9720 / 61.47; z = 41.04

So pre-patch,

2941.024 + 123 = 3064.024 / 41.667 = 73.54
1/z = 0.0085555 + 0.9720 / 73.54; z = 45.93

And post-patch,

2941.024 + 123 = 3064.024 / 47.84 = 64.05
1/z = 0.0085555 + 0.9720 / 73.54; z = 42.14

So 123 agi is approximately a 1.1% dodge increase both pre- and post- patch (expected, since DR isn't affected).

Doing the same with defense,

1/z = 0.0085555 + 0.9720 / 62.47; z = 41.47

Leaving a 0.43% increase to dodge plus an increase to miss (1% from your calculations, but in reality probably slightly less due to whatever DR are in effect from the small amount we have) -> 1.43% avoidance.

So the break-even point is less than that... I don't think I can think anymore at 5 AM though. Will keep working tomorrow...

[Elunedra]

Druids still have the advantage in hp, and will even more in 3.2 with the DK nerf, so it won't hinder you so much that another tank will be better than you to the point where there's no question if you should be replaced.

we only got an advantage in hp if u go for as much stamina as posable, i ma personaly more of an avoidence druid i can get like 42K raid buffed but our DK walks aroung whit frigging 50K witch i beleived to be reached in T9 lol, he ofc laso ha more dodge + parry + miss then me,

we often say that a druids dodge is rougly equal to an other tanks dodge + parry witch is tru but we realy forget is that they got a far higher miss% since they do get defence ratings on thier gear.

one thing thoug is i got same armor as our Dk tank.

(oke truth is he is full uldaur 25 (whitout hard modes), i am half uldaur 25 the rest naxx 25)

[Alski]

I'm still trying to go over part of the maths again, but I feel like something is wrong here. The (pre-patch) numbers on EJ say 38.537 agi = 1% dodge, given hotw sotf and imp motw, or 35.034 agi = 1% dodge, also given kings. This to me suggests on *gear*, not on character sheet -- it doesn't make sense that if I have 2k agility without kings, then suddenly get kings to have 2.2k, the amount of dodge I get from agility changes.

Druid A and Druid B are BOTH using the 3.2 values, this is in now way a comparison between now and 3.2 so you have to use the 3.2 values for both of them. and on that note it makes perfect sense, you get more agi (from the buff) and by doing so you get pushed closer to the point where defense > agi.

So with the change, this should be 40.289 agi per 1% dodge with kings, as your math suggests, but I don't understand where you get the last number I quoted. If you have 123 agi on a piece of gear, you should just divide by 40.289 -- as I said above, this should already account for all of your buffs. You're double-counting to multiply by them again. So instead of 3.63% dodge, you're down to 3.05% at zero DR.

123 agi x Imp MoTW x SoTF x Kings = 146.29 agi = 3.63% dodge
we dont have to do this with defense because it doesnt get any modifiers so it stays as a flat 123

and thats where your maths fell thru. :P

@ Sunshine: if you dont understand where some of the numbers are coming from or the way ive ordered it bold it(in a quote) and i will give you an explanation

Edit: my maths in the post before are just slightly off from rounding errors ect but it still doesnt change the final answer by anything more than ~1%

[Masamichi]

Or better yet, let out attack power in Bear form go up a little bit, because god forbid we have more threat.

Prot warrior here (registered just for this post): How about once we stop being 20-30% behind you in damage (gogo vig. bandaid for threat!)?

[Mixon]

i always kinda liked how tanks of different calss had different roles (to a point) remember when pallys were best at aoe tanking, druids had tons of hp and dodge, and warriors had loads of midigation? oh well no use dreaming of the past.

[Shinshiva]

Prot warrior here (registered just for this post): How about once we stop being 20-30% behind you in damage (gogo vig. bandaid for threat!)?

Do your dps pull off you?

No?

You're fine.

Yes?

Well then... Don't come here and QQ, find out what you're doing wrong.

[Xenryusho]

Do your dps pull off you?

No?

You're fine.

Yes?

Well then... Don't come here and QQ, find out what you're doing wrong.

That dodge nerf making you die against every boss to the point where you were gkicked for not helping the raid in anwyay?

No?

You're fine.

Then don't come here and QQ and find out what you're doing wrong.


Edit: To the druids who aren't jerks. I'm sorry you're taking this nerf, pallys and warriors just took one from their shield slams too. Hopefully blizzard will fix this making the nerf to dodge only apply to other classes considering it's your only form of avoidance.

[Alski]

come on kids dont start bickering now. If anything Druids and warriors should band together because atm on the PTR were both at the bottom of the barrel (this includes thread) >.>

[Shinshiva]

EDIT: Shut up Shin.

[Jon]

we only got an advantage in hp if u go for as much stamina as posable, i ma personaly more of an avoidence druid i can get like 42K raid buffed but our DK walks aroung whit frigging 50K witch i beleived to be reached in T9 lol, he ofc laso ha more dodge + parry + miss then me,

This. The hp advantage is gone when we do the sensible thing and stack agility. And our avoidance will be even further below other tanks if we go for health.