3.2 Prot Paladin Spec ideas

[FurioRing]

With the changes to Vindication, I see that each individual hit will be worth more overall threat that it currently is. That being said, I am looking at this build for a MT setup. http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#sVZA0xA0ugGsIufdxb

I keep the bonus point in imp judgement for several reasons. The 6969 rotation is totally maintained and you gain an extra GCD roughly every 3rd rotation for SS renewal or whatever is needed without loosing time.

-5/5 improved seals is going to likely to see higher gains in 3.2 but I have not been able to get on the PTR due to some totally corrupted files.

-5/5 Reckoning. I think this is going to be one of the better changes with the new Seal system. Reckoning will be good for any build that can pick it up now. If you are worried about parries, then you don't have enough expertise. I usually run 21-41 expertise depending on gear sets and weapon choice. (dwarf racial ftw and tanking maces!)


Ideas on 3.2 builds welcome!

[Tyneside]

Man, that's one baaaaad spec.

2/2 SA? No thanks.

5/5 Reckoning? Terrible. There's still a low uptime with 5/5 Reckoning. In addition you're overvaluing what is a very small effect. The white damage is a non-factor and the Holy damage is about 1/3 of it. Even with a 15% increase it's lol worthy. At less than 100 damage/swing on bosses, why would you invest 5 talent points into trying to get such small increase?

5/5 SotP has the same status it always has. Yes, it's better than 5/5 Conviction, but it's not even as good as 2/3 Crusade.

Divinity is still a poor investment for the points.

Try again.



And please explain to me how you "gain" a GCD by putting 2 points into iJudg while maintaining the 969? The reason the 969 fits together is the timing on the GLOBAL cooldown. The reason you use those 5 abilities is the ability cooldowns. Even if the abilities had 0 cooldown, if you maintained the same order you would NEVER gain a free GCD.

[Deleted]

the thing is, someone at EJ said that 5/5 reck and 5/5 SotP will be the best threat spec for the following patch. i found the mention here somewhere on the forums, but i don't want to look it up now. (and remember, SoV pops of HotR and ShoR)

anyway, i am hesitating between 2 specs (depending on the truth of the above statement). remember, vindication is changed next patch. first one:

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?pala...&version=10072

standard protection build, but with 2 points taken from conv. for vindication (assuming vindication works on bosses, like demo shout does).

the other one is an edited build:

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?pala...&version=10072

this build is for when SotP/Reck really is the top threat build. no divsac.

anyway, the first build is for progression content, because it is more of a survival build. the boss will hit for less, due to the AP reduction from vindi. the second build is a farm content build, because it provides more DPS.

[Martini]

Please read posts made by theck

Summary:

* SotP is still a weak talent, unless they change it in the future to affect the 5-stack SoV proc. As it currently stands, the order is still OHWS > TbtL > Crusade > Conviction > SotP > Reckoning
* Crusade specs are still king. Even 1V+3C is stronger than 5/5 SotP.
* 5 SotP + 5 Reckoning isn't a bad option if you aren't going more than 6 points in Ret. If you're going deep enough to get Vindication or PoJ though, 3V+3C would be even stronger.
* Reckoning is still our weakest threat talent, but it's come a long way. It's now 32 TPS per point, almost as good as SotP's 37 TPS per point.

[Lightstrike]

Please read posts made by theck

Summary:

* SotP is still a weak talent, unless they change it in the future to affect the 5-stack SoV proc. As it currently stands, the order is still OHWS > TbtL > Crusade > Conviction > SotP > Reckoning
* Crusade specs are still king. Even 1V+3C is stronger than 5/5 SotP.
* 5 SotP + 5 Reckoning isn't a bad option if you aren't going more than 6 points in Ret. If you're going deep enough to get Vindication or PoJ though, 3V+3C would be even stronger.
* Reckoning is still our weakest threat talent, but it's come a long way. It's now 32 TPS per point, almost as good as SotP's 37 TPS per point.

Damn.. beat me to it with the threat stuff.

However I'm going to go into great detail as to why divinity is borderline useless and why I facepalm every time I see someone with it..

Let's be kind and analyse it in a vacuum at first..

+5% healing done to you (the bit we are interested in)


Basically for every heal that you get, let's use a big healign spell for example at 8k-12k, you're gonna get 5% more healing done to you, so a heal that would heal for 10k, now heals for 10500.. fantastic! Let's say that over the course of a fight you get healed for 400k hp.. with this talent the healers only need to heal 381k.. that is a whole 19k that they don't need to bother with..

I tried to be kind, I really did.. but heven when trying to be favourable.. it is utter fail.
In any given situation with only one healer on you, the difference at the end of the fight is going to be small.. in the above example, 19k would be 2-3 big heals... which is what 7 seconds casting time? At no point in a fight where you take 400000 damage, would you be in a position where those 7 seconds would matter...

Now let's pull it out of the vacuum since all the people claiming it's extra survivability chime in...

In a real situation, let's take thorim for example since he hits like a truck on 25 man, and this is favourable to the EH and survivability argument btw..
You are going to be getting hit for over 50% of your health in this situation.. I have over 40k buffed, so let's call it 25k damage per swing.. I need to be healed for more than 5K in between swings and 25k to get me to full hp... with divinity i only need to be healed for 23.8k.. however the likelihood is (especially with 4-5 healers spamming me) that there will be overheals.. this means that divinity hasn't actually helped matters in this space of time because the extra healing was there anyway and just got converted to overheal.

let's take a different example now.. let's say you take a 10k hit from 40k hp leaving you with 30k.. to heal you up with divinity would require a heal of 9523. Anything under this will need a second heal, which mean divinity has had no effect since you would need that second heal without it, therefore nullifying its point. Any overheal of 477 or more would mean that I would be healed to full with or without divinity and it's been useless yet again.. Essentially what I am getting at, is that divinity is only useful, and marginally useful at that when the heal is exactly what is required or any overheal between 0 and what would need to be healed without it, getting decreasingly effective as you approach this mark..
This case can be extended down to a chain of heals from 1hp if you wanted to.. for example..

Without divinity I could need 40k hp healed.. which would come in 4 lots of 10k heals... with divinity I would need 4 lots of 9.5k heals.. the net gain of using divinity in this case is actually 4*0.5k = 2000effective healing that isn't necessary. However to heal me to full, this 2k would simply be wasted on overheal as it does not give enough leeway to allow the luxury of only healing 3 times.

For divinity to be worthwhile at any level, other than in a tiny spectrum, which is actually 4.8% of your health per heal and not exactly 5%, you would need to lose enough health that 21 heals in a row without divinity would equal 20 heals with it and therefore save the healers one cast.

For this to happen you would need to lose 21* the average heal in health.. which in most cases would mean death.

For divinity to be truly useful, the paladin would have to be taking constant damage that matches from the healing PoV, to the exact damage taken while divinity were used and in a case without divinity, the battle would be uphill.

For example.. I'm taking a DoT of a steady 4k per second.. the heals are incoming every 2 seconds.. I take 8k damage in between heals.. The heals would need to be 7620 per heal for me to be losing out by not taking divinity...

even in this idealistic scenario where divinity is doing a good job.. it is still ruined by crit heals, because a single crit heal while not having divinity would boost me back up to a good position.

As a mathematical example.. the net loss of hp every cast is 380. 7620/380 = ~20.. 1/20 = 0.05 = 5%
This means that with only 5% crit chance, or 1 crit every 40 seconds.. divinity is made useless again.

I'm hoping this brought home to all you people who spec in it how useless this talent actually is.

Just in case you missed it the first time, here's a TLDR..

Unless that extra 5% healing can amass to a state where one less heal is needed to bring you to full health with between 0 and 4.76% overheal, it is completely wasted.

[cappytoi]

agree with the lightstrike also want to add that going for the divine guardian help dmg mitigation and improves your own sacred shield uptime which is, i think, more beneficial than getting 5% more healing.

as for the reckoning i don't know if SotP will increase the 1/3 weapon dmg when SoV stacked, would like to try at PTR but stupid toon stuck while teleporting. so my buffed weapon swings are hitting around 750, crits for 1100 avg. so considering 1000 boss hits with actually dmging attacks are 500 (assuming an average 50% avoidance), assuming boss is hitting around 2.5 sec with debuffs (fight time 2500sec), you should get around 50 reckoning procs, which will give you 200 reckoning hits. lets say 10% of this hits getting missed/parried/dodged, you'll get around 180 reckoning procs avg. With 25% raid buffed assuming flat 45 crits, 135 normal hits, you make around ((750+250*2.71)*135+(1100+366*2.71)*45)/2500=114.75 tps. numbers may not be well considered, not saying that i am a theocrafting master but it is obvious that 5/5 reckoning is not worth it.

[Jin84]

Imo. If you have a full time Ret pally, it's best to leave Vindication to him. OR a Mitigation specced prot warrior.

[Shuji1987]

5/5 Reckoning? Terrible. There's still a low uptime with 5/5 Reckoning. In addition you're overvaluing what is a very small effect. The white damage is a non-factor and the Holy damage is about 1/3 of it. Even with a 15% increase it's lol worthy. At less than 100 damage/swing on bosses, why would you invest 5 talent points into trying to get such small increase?

Although I do not totally agree with that build, do keep in mind that Seal of Vengeance has been changed to grant 30% (or 33%) weapon damage as holy damage when all 5 stacks are full. So defenitely not useless.

[Lightstrike]

Reckoning is like divinity in a way, its looks shiny, but the math underneath tells another story.

By contrast there are talents that don't look too good at first but are awesome, i tend to gauge how well a PuG is going to perform by how the tank has geared/specced themselves.. especially with a paladin tank.

[Jin84]

Reckoning is like divinity in a way, its looks shiny, but the math underneath tells another story.

By contrast there are talents that don't look too good at first but are awesome, i tend to gauge how well a PuG is going to perform by how the tank has geared/specced themselves.. especially with a paladin tank.

Indeed. I will never take Reckoning at all, even in 3.2.

[Iselian]

Although I do not totally agree with that build, do keep in mind that Seal of Vengeance has been changed to grant 30% (or 33%) weapon damage as holy damage when all 5 stacks are full. So defenitely not useless.

* Reckoning is still our weakest threat talent, but it's come a long way. It's now 32 TPS per point, almost as good as SotP's 37 TPS per point.

Not useless, but there's better. Everywhere. So it's just the least useful.

[cappytoi]

the thing about reckoning is, it is RNG based (even double RNG, once you need to get a hit then that hit should proc reckoning), where you can get stable threat from crusade why do you need to trust RNG for threat?

[FurioRing]

Sadly, I made this post before I did the research on SotP not effecting the new SoV in any useful way. So my first post's build was totally built on the wrong data set. I was finally able to reinstall the PTR and test it myself as well. Why they do not have it effect all damage caused is pointless for a 5 point talent. Going back to the books to work on a useful point spread again for a 3.2 build.

[Offhand]

Please read posts made by theck

Summary:

* SotP is still a weak talent, unless they change it in the future to affect the 5-stack SoV proc. As it currently stands, the order is still OHWS > TbtL > Crusade > Conviction > SotP > Reckoning
* Crusade specs are still king. Even 1V+3C is stronger than 5/5 SotP.
* 5 SotP + 5 Reckoning isn't a bad option if you aren't going more than 6 points in Ret. If you're going deep enough to get Vindication or PoJ though, 3V+3C would be even stronger.
* Reckoning is still our weakest threat talent, but it's come a long way. It's now 32 TPS per point, almost as good as SotP's 37 TPS per point.

This, while Theck does also conclude that conviction/crusade specs are still the optimal threat set ups, he also points out that previously inferior talents have caught up to a small degree. SotP+Reck isn't as terrible as it used to be.

Long story short, 53/18 is still the best way to go.