3.2 Ret

[icelazer]

With the changes to Ret in 3.2 with seal of vengeance, has anyone done any numbers work to determine the new stat coefficients? Is crit (the 5 stack proc) and haste (to get the 5 stacks on) more important for damage then apen/expertise/etc?

[Adamson]

No, no one has done them. Probably never will.



































http://elitistjerks.com/f76/t64775-3...on_discussion/

Psyche!

[chrishanson]

ive red redcapes new stats and if i remember arp has surpassed haste in importance. dont have any links though haha

[Handsylton]

New stat priority:

Strength > Hit > Exp > Crit > ArPen > Haste.

Agility actually is a little better than ArPen but we don't have Agility on our gear so :P.

[Deleted]

Strength and crit as usual. Arp is still complete and absolute bullshit.

[Nece]

All our attacks are now melee. I think ArP will be different. I think that is the direction they want to go.


I got 12% right now and I got it because of the amount of str on 3 items main one being the 98 str belt that dropped for ignis. But my dps went up though. My self buffs are 32% crit 4002 ap(not great I know) max hit. Im at 4 to 5k dps (good group makeup helps).

I wish I had saved pics for it but a pally with 30 more ap but higher crit and I went to the dummies and with 12% pen I hit alot harder on normal hits and obviously (same trinkets). Seems more seen on crits. My highest was a 3.9 crit and his 3.6. But our dps is close but I beat him in dmg. The crit Gods have always hated me but If I add more crit I should pull away for maybe 200 more dps and definite dmg.

sorry for long talk and I am high atm so sorry if i misunderstand.

[iktankniet]

All our attacks are now melee. I think ArP will be different. I think that is the direction they want to go.


I got 12% right now and I got it because of the amount of str on 3 items main one being the 98 str belt that dropped for ignis. But my dps went up though. My self buffs are 32% crit 4002 ap(not great I know) max hit. Im at 4 to 5k dps (good group makeup helps).

I wish I had saved pics for it but a pally with 30 more ap but higher crit and I went to the dummies and with 12% pen I hit alot harder on normal hits and obviously (same trinkets). Seems more seen on crits. My highest was a 3.9 crit and his 3.6. But our dps is close but I beat him in dmg. The crit Gods have always hated me but If I add more crit I should pull away for maybe 200 more dps and definite dmg.

sorry for long talk and I am high atm so sorry if i misunderstand.

judgement, seal tick and the seal dmg on melee hit are all holy dmg. arP has nothing to do with this. the only attacks arP influences are: CS, DS and auto attack.

[Arganaut]

What's your hammer of wraths hitting for on PTR? Slightly off topic maybe.

[Alinor]

New stat priority:

Strength > Hit > Exp > Crit > ArPen > Haste.

Agility actually is a little better than ArPen but we don't have Agility on our gear so :P.

Not sure what you base that on but haste offers more damage then APEN.

In 3.2 that does not change, haste is more dps. I am almost done updating my calculator and will post it here with 3.2 values.
This is not about guessing what will be better this is about math and reproducing game mechanics, then looking at the numbers.

Nothing fundamental changed much in 3.2 after all, more damage moved in to seal and some of that damage was split overtime. You will see 150-200 DPS increase as a result but stat values did not change much for haste or armor pen.

My calculator for 3.1 is here http://uber-logic.com/tools/ret_dps3.1/ if you want to run some test yourself.

[Deleted]

just a question since ive seen many people forget this when they calculate haste's importance for our dps do you have haste as an increase on all seal damage or only the part that is triggered by normal white attaks?
I have seen many people that thinks that a 5% increase in ahste is a 5% increase in seal damage while we have aditional attaks that procc's seals that aren't affected by haste in 3.2 with 4 seconds CS and judgement proccing seals i think less than half of our seal proccs will come from our normal mele attaks so haste will as best have half the affect on seal damage that it has on normal mele and arp will affect CS, DS, white, and RV ticks also.

[Alinor]

just a question since ive seen many people forget this when they calculate haste's importance for our dps do you have haste as an increase on all seal damage or only the part that is triggered by normal white attaks?
I have seen many people that thinks that a 5% increase in ahste is a 5% increase in seal damage while we have aditional attaks that procc's seals that aren't affected by haste in 3.2 with 4 seconds CS and judgement proccing seals i think less than half of our seal proccs will come from our normal mele attaks so haste will as best have half the affect on seal damage that it has on normal mele and arp will affect CS, DS, white, and RV ticks also.

Can you point to source that says judgments will proc seals, i might have missed that one.

In general paladins want hard hitting slow weapons due to weapon normalization, in turn hard hitting, slow weapons scale best with haste.
Now by doing my calculation on 3.2 data, i get that melee based abilities that will use Apen round up to 39.8 % damage. Abilities are - CS, DS, Melee, and fraction small boost to RV.
Haste on the other hand benefits only 2 abilities, seal and melee but combined their damages comes up with 41.6% damage. This means that haste will increase damage more than apen, considering 10,500k armored target. But as soon as target becomes very heavy armred, haste looses value as soon as target is less armored armor pen losess value. These stats are different you can not put them on the same scale, because they scale based on the opponent. good news is that difference between them is fairly small only about 4%. So for the most part you can be flexible with these stats and pick items with both.
Yet upper hand is on haste.

[Relentless]

I don't have a link regarding the judgments proccing seals, but I have read several accounts of people on the PTR saying that this is currently the case. It seems to be a side effect, whether intentional or not, of the coding change that now treats all judgments as a melee attack, which I believe was mentioned in the patch notes.

Who knows if this will make it to live, but it seems to be a nice DPS boost at the moment.

[ewhenn]

I don't have a link regarding the judgments proccing seals, but I have read several accounts of people on the PTR saying that this is currently the case. It seems to be a side effect, whether intentional or not, of the coding change that now treats all judgments as a melee attack, which I believe was mentioned in the patch notes.

Who knows if this will make it to live, but it seems to be a nice DPS boost at the moment.

From what I understand it IS intended as a part of our sustained DPS boost.

Judgement used to be a considered a ranged attack. Ranges does not have dodge/parry.

They change judgements to be melee attacks that cannot be dodged/parried. Since seals proc on melee attacks, there you go.

I can't see any other reason they made the change as the only thing it impacts is the seal proc.

[Deleted]

Haste on the other hand benefits only 2 abilities, seal and melee but combined their damages comes up with 41.6% damage.

yes but my point is that half of that seal damage comes from procc's from CS DS and in 3.2 also judgement, tested that judgement procc seals myself on the ptr, and if i go by my own figures seal and mele damage is about equal so around 20 of those 41.6% are from seal damage and half of that isn't affected by haste meaning that the actual number on things that haste affects are closer to 30% of our total dps since the seal procc's from CS and DS are not in any way increased by having higher haste. wich means that arp should be the slightly superior one but as you say not by a big diference.
and the reason judgements now procc seal are that they changed judgements so that all judgements are considered mele attaks that can't be dodged, blocked or parried
and as we know mele attaks procc seals, JoC was alredy considered a mele attaak wich is the reasont hat command earlier could be procced on a judgement.

[Alinor]

yes but my point is that half of that seal damage comes from procc's from CS DS and in 3.2 also judgement tested that judgement procc seals myself on the ptr and hmm if i go by my own figures seal and mele damage is about equal so around 20 of those 41.6% are from seal damage and half of that isn't affected by haste meaning that the actual number on things that haste affects are closer to 30% of our total dps since the seal procc's from CS and DS are not in any way increased by having higher haste. wich means that arp should be the slightly superior one but as you say not by a big diference.
and the reason judgements now procc seal are that they changed judgements so that all judgements are considered mele attaks that can't be dodged, blocked or parried
and as we know mele attaks procc seals, JoC was alredy considered a mele attaak wich is the reasont hat command earlier could be procced on a judgement.

Not half, 39% of seal damage comes from other than melee sources.

I already did the math behind the door for you when i said melee and seal result in 41.6% damage. I although can do it here.
Combining full seal damage with melee will give us 52.8% damage, but since CS and DS and others things are not affected we only consider 41.65 witch is damage generated by melee swings only. I am using my framework to calculate it not in game reports. My framework clearly reports value of adding 16 haste at 5.4 and adding 16 armor pen at 5.1 DPS. This supports previous conclusion that haste will come out on top against targets with 10500 armor. Depending on your stats you values will change but armor pen gains value at much slower pace than haste and this is why it is overall a better stat but since armor values vary you will see armor pen better in one fight and haste better in another BUT considering their diff is fairly marginal they are almost the same.

I base my calculations on calculations not assumptions, and my framework does that for me. I give you informed opinion supported by tests you take it you do not. good news is no matter what you decide armor pen or hate there will be encounters where that is true and there will be encounters where it is false, and you will not suffer sufficient enough dps loss if you choose the less effective one to go with.

Also keep in mind that both haste and armor pen are related. Increase haste for example will increase effectiveness of armor pen because you will land more hits and will make more use of armor pen, while increasing armor pen makes haste increase in value because if you add more armor pen haste will increase it's value. Kind of same thing but as you see they are connected to each other and it is good move to have both on your gear.

Judgments are melee? Old news, it's been that way for umm... always.

[Alinor]

From what I understand it IS intended as a part of our sustained DPS boost.

Judgement used to be a considered a ranged attack. Ranges does not have dodge/parry.

They change judgements to be melee attacks that cannot be dodged/parried. Since seals proc on melee attacks, there you go.

I can't see any other reason they made the change as the only thing it impacts is the seal proc.

Judgments ALWAYS used melee table That is why it is hitcapped at 8%...

[Adamson]

Judgments ALWAYS used melee table?that is why it is hit capped at 8%...

Depends on your definition of always.

Judgement was a spell from vanilla through BC. In 3.0 judgement of command and martyr were changed to ranged attacks that dealt spell damage.

[Deleted]

ok then just one final question have you calculated for the strange scaling to arp compared to other stats since arp scales very good with it self because of the way armor scales meaining that after a certain amount of arp it will scale better, since arp even thought its now a rating and not a fixed value still is the stat that scales best with itself meaning that the more you have of it the better it becomes. so it might very well outscale haste at a certain number similar to the way arp is one of the best stats for cat dps once they reached around 200 arp but before that is outscaled by other stats.

some judgements were conisidered as ranged attaks wich have the same hit cap as mele attaks and can't be dodged or parryed and some were considered mele attaks now all are changed to mele attaks meaning all judgements will procc seals previously only SoC have ahd this effect but that hasn't been to easy to noitce thanks to the 1 second hidden CD on it.

[Adamson]

As far as I can tell armor pen will always be a horrible stat for us.

more than half our pve damage isn't mitigated by armor as it is, so armor pen by default is 1/2 as useful for us.

[Deleted]

same could be said for haste since it also affects less than 50% of our dps

and arp is funny that instead of the relatively linear scaling of other stats it got an epenetional scaling meaning that it starts out as crappy but gets better the more you get of it so at a certain value it should outscale haste and if in high enough amounts it might even outscale crit but the amounts needed for that would seriously gimp all our other stats