1. #1

    Discipline or Shadow

    Which wwould be the highest survival talent spec for solo questing?

  2. #2

    Re: Discipline or Shadow

    well i lvled my priest as disc, does good dps and also you can heal in instances if needed, or just simply have both both specs when you can get duel specs like i have

  3. #3

    Re: Discipline or Shadow

    Quote Originally Posted by geek88
    Which wwould be the highest survival talent spec for solo questing?
    Whether you're speaking of solo questing or grouped, the discipline tree is all about survival and endurance and easily wins this contest. Regarding solo questing, specifically, it also does provide for fairly solid damage output though you are sacrificing some of the raw dps of shadow for that survivability.
    Bigslick (6/14H)
    "Those who deny respect for others deserve it not for themselves."

  4. #4

    Re: Discipline or Shadow

    If you're talking about grinding or leveling, there's no doubt about it - take shadow spec and that's it. Going disc or holy for grinding or leveling is time sink, you'll spend so much time for nothing since questing isn't arena or pvp. You want to kill stuff fast, as shadow you're doing it really fast. You'll have no mana issues, and you can heal up just as good as disc except you lack penance.

    I don't know how could disc rival shadow tree in terms of dealing damage and enduring mobs, it's silly just to mention that since you'll go oom and then die. And please, don't argue me about disc > shadow when it comes to leveling, mobs have below 10k hp, hit for like 300 and you can easily take on 6 of them, dot up, fear and flay them one by one. It takes approximately 30 seconds to kill such a pack as shadow, significantly less once you hit 76 and get Mind Sear.

    Forget about any "endurance" or healing spec, if you want to level without doing instances - go shadow. Even in crappy green gear you won't have huge downtimes if you get glyph of dispersion to lower it for additional 45 sec. Just chain your mana regen abilities and dot everything in your way.

  5. #5

    Re: Discipline or Shadow

    shadow HANDS DOWN.

    anyone who says otherwise has no clue whatsoever

    i've levelled 2 priests, shadow is known as the best levelling spec.
    80 Druid, 84 Priest, 85 Death Knight, 85 Mage, 76 Shaman, 85 Warrior, 70 Warlock, 70 Paladin

  6. #6

    Re: Discipline or Shadow

    hmm i belive the question wasn't wich specc that is fastest to level but wich specc that has the best survival tools.
    now im not a preist so im leaving the answer up to you who are but please read the question before replying.
    punctuation is for suckers that bow down to the grammar nazi's :P

  7. #7

    Re: Discipline or Shadow

    Quote Originally Posted by maaghen
    hmm i belive the question wasn't wich specc that is fastest to level but wich specc that has the best survival tools.
    now im not a preist so im leaving the answer up to you who are but please read the question before replying.
    Which wwould be the highest survival talent spec for solo questing?
    We read before replying. I suggest you do the same.

  8. #8
    Blademaster Batalla's Avatar
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    Re: Discipline or Shadow

    I'm in the same situation as the OP, I think shadow is way better but does anyone know a good spec?, i'm going oom pretty quick while i'm killing quest mobs, should i put more point on spirit tap, perhaps?

    this is my guy: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...oldt&n=Reioril

    Sorry for my english beforehand.

  9. #9

    Re: Discipline or Shadow

    Discipline imo.

    I've leveled my priest to 60 as Discipline, hardly any downtime due to meditation and better mana efficiency, and also your empowered Power Word Shields and Pain Surpression will defenitely come in handy.

    I've found that leveling as shadow isn't viable anymore due to the spirit nerf, so it doesn't matter how much spirit you stack on your gear.

    Though at 62 you're better off being Shadow imo, due to having Dispersion and Shadow Fiend.

    Start out with this:
    http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?prie...&version=10072

    13/00/03

    Go up the Holy tree later on for faster Holy Fire's and Smite's and more powerfull versions, then improve on the disc tree. However, if you want Pain Surpression / Power Infusion and the likes just respecc when you have the points to be able to.
    North America 22-09-2009 Europe 25-09-2009

  10. #10

    Re: Discipline or Shadow

    I have two priests myself and I lvl'd them both as shadow till lvl 70. when WOTLK hit I did one as shadow and one as disc. I honestly like them both. Yes shadow does have less downtime, but I don't see disc as being that slow. I say try them both and see what you prefer.

  11. #11

    Re: Discipline or Shadow

    Who has survival issues while leveling?

    And, Holy/Disc is better for leveling until at least 50, maybe even 60.

  12. #12

    Re: Discipline or Shadow

    Quote Originally Posted by john879
    I have two priests myself and I lvl'd them both as shadow till lvl 70. when WOTLK hit I did one as shadow and one as disc. I honestly like them both. Yes shadow does have less downtime, but I don't see disc as being that slow. I say try them both and see what you prefer.
    I leveled two priests as well, quite frankly both in WotLK as well.
    However, before the spirit nerf shadow was the superior leveling spec, but know shadow is just frustrating as hell having to drink after every 3 mobs regardless of the amounts of spirit on your gear.

    It reminded me of when I leveled my Paladin as Retribution through vanilla and TBC and how fastI had to drink/eat. Just way too frustrating.
    North America 22-09-2009 Europe 25-09-2009

  13. #13

    Re: Discipline or Shadow

    The OP's question was strictly regarding solo survivability, not ease of leveling.

    Quote Originally Posted by syanid
    Going disc or holy for grinding or leveling is time sink, you'll spend so much time for nothing since questing isn't arena or pvp
    Welcome to LK, where Disc isn't just for arena or pvp. Talents have changed.

    Quote Originally Posted by syanid
    ...as shadow ... you can heal up just as good as disc except you lack penance
    ermmm... This isn't even remotely accurate. First you have to drop shadowform, which loses 15% of your damage mitigation the ability to use some of your dps talents, the power of some of those that you retain, and you don't have many of the talents that a disc priest would pick up to directly strengthen healing done. Also, if you have to pop out of shadow to heal yourself, you're spending more mana on those heals than a disc priest would as well as a pretty pricy tag to shift back to shadow at the end.

    Quote Originally Posted by syanid
    I don't know how could disc rival shadow tree in terms of dealing damage and enduring mobs, it's silly just to mention that since you'll go oom and then die. And please, don't argue me about disc > shadow when it comes to leveling, mobs have below 10k hp, hit for like 300 and you can easily take on 6 of them, dot up, fear and flay them one by one. It takes approximately 30 seconds to kill such a pack as shadow, significantly less once you hit 76 and get Mind Sear.
    Ok, up front let me say that I'm not arguing that disc is better than shadow for leveling, or vice-versa. But I am going to argue that the argument can be made for either. You nailed it on the head in that the issue is about dealing damage AND enduring mobs. It's a balance between the two. With a shield up (yes shadow has it too, albeit much weaker) a disc priest can take more hits before taking damage or even any spell pushback, affording them more time to do damage. Shadow does more damage but has less utility with which to effectively deal with that incoming damage, so is under more pressure. As to larger packs, are you forgetting that ALL priests get Mind Sear (which is at lvl 75, not 76)? Shielding, double-dotting the primary sear-target, and then chaining a couple of full sears before enemies burst through your first shield (by which time WS is gone so you can put up a new one) works very well. How the idea got out there that 'zomg you're not shadow so you must have to holy nova oom yourself on packs' is one I'll never understand. I hardly ever used it after getting sear.

    Quote Originally Posted by syanid
    Forget about any "endurance" or healing spec, if you want to level without doing instances - go shadow. Even in crappy green gear you won't have huge downtimes if you get glyph of dispersion to lower it for additional 45 sec. Just chain your mana regen abilities and dot everything in your way.
    I leveled to 80 alternating levels via shadow and disc and tbh personally didn't find either to be 'clearly' better. Mana was not the issue for discipline that you suggest, even when I graduated from my faithful BC tier gear sets to quest reward. And while raw dps was less than shadow the level to which spells were disrupted were less as well. Properly managed disc only has to stop to drink a little more often than shadow, but then shadow has to also occasionally stop to heal, shift back to shadowform, then recover the not insubstantial mana expended in doing so.
    Bigslick (6/14H)
    "Those who deny respect for others deserve it not for themselves."

  14. #14

    Re: Discipline or Shadow

    Why does everything end up in such long debates about what is (clearly) superior.

    1) Shadow does more damage.
    2) Shadow has more mana regen (yes, it does).
    3) Shadow takes less damage from mobs since they die faster.

    Who the hell pulls 10+ mobs on them as disc and smites them to death? I'm wondering why am I actually answering here but here goes:

    ermmm... This isn't even remotely accurate. First you have to drop shadowform, which loses 15% of your damage mitigation the ability to use some of your dps talents, the power of some of those that you retain, and you don't have many of the talents that a disc priest would pick up to directly strengthen healing done. Also, if you have to pop out of shadow to heal yourself, you're spending more mana on those heals than a disc priest would as well as a pretty pricy tag to shift back to shadow at the end.
    It is more than remotely accurate. If I'm at 1000 hp, I don't care if I get for 300 or 450 by the mob, I'll pull the heal off. Disc != Holy so heals aren't vastly more powerful that it actually matters anything. And so what if you have to drop shadowform? Shadow priests have tons of mana from dispersion and fiend and spirit tap. It might have been nerfed, but hey, it still works.

    With a shield up (yes shadow has it too, albeit much weaker) a disc priest can take more hits before taking damage or even any spell pushback, affording them more time to do damage. Shadow does more damage but has less utility with which to effectively deal with that incoming damage, so is under more pressure.
    This is totally silly, when I leveled there was one big pack of mobs in Icecrown, where vrykuls or whatever they're called practice. Nearby is that Ebon Hold. So what I did was this (level 79) - I tab dotted 5 packs, which is 10 mobs. First 4 caught up, I feared, the rest got dotted up while I was running.
    Result: all dead, I took moderate damage (maybe 900). So I have no idea why are you even mentioning Discipline's shields which are ALMOST no better than shadow priests' shields when you're leveling, seeing the gear you have isn't good.

    More damage you do, faster mobs die. More killing blows - more spirit. If in trouble, press dispersion (and you got fear). If oom, either disperse or send your fiend to do the dirty work.

    Re: spell pushback - you got 70% protection as shadow while in shadowform. Seeing as disc doesn't have anything that shadow doesn't, save penance (and PI that's not damaging anything), I see no reason why would anyone choose slower dealing damage spec save for the feeling of fun. Mathematically and trough experience - shadow is faster to kill stuff. Until they grace disc with something else that outdpses shadow, then why are we talking about what's faster and better to level with?

    If you enjoy disc or holy to level, fine by me, but don't spread misinformation that it's the same whichever spec you choose or that one of 2 healing specs is more "viable" when clearly it isn't.

  15. #15

    Re: Discipline or Shadow

    As stated once before: the only thing you need is meditation and spirit tap, and tada you have yourself a decent grinding spec.

    Like this, for a smite spec for solo'ing: Solo Smite 37/27/7.

    The "speed" that shadow does it really is only better by about 5%, seeing the set up time for Shadow is based on multi-doting whereas I can just go and keep on going, single or multi-target. Mobs don't last long. At all. Plus I don't have to "lose" any of my bonuses should I find myself in over my head and need to heal.

    Shadow can do it, great. But it's not the only one, and it's not so "vastly superior".
    ~Former Priest/Guild Wars 2 Moderator~
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  16. #16

    Re: Discipline or Shadow

    It is vastly superior for grinding purposes and damage dealing. Don't spread misinformation, it's really silly to do so. One thing is to prefer one spec because of fun factor, completely another to actually try to put them on par.
    It's not only 5% difference, I won't link talents now since we all know that there is more to it.

  17. #17

    Re: Discipline or Shadow

    Quote Originally Posted by syanid
    Why does everything end up in such long debates about what is (clearly) superior.
    Because it's not 'clearly' superior. I don't know how much more simply I can put it. Each is superior in their own situations.

    "Shadow has more mana regen (yes, it does)." - a leveling disc priest will have points into shadow for spirit tap. There's not a big difference here, when you factor in the additional mana you have to recoup to regain shadowform after occasionally dropping it to heal. Also, I always laugh a little when I see people expect their statements to be seen as validated by "yes it does" or "I know it does" or "trust me." I'll grant you that overall mana longevity is a little higher for shadow than for disc, but at the same time a shadow priest will likely die more times leveling than a disc priest, and those corpse runs can be nasty...

    "Shadow takes less damage from mobs since they die faster" - Unless the incoming damage is more than you can sustain. That fear you throw out that ends up aggroing another group or 2 of mobs is more likely to be the death of a shadow priest than a disc priest.

    "Who the hell pulls 10+ mobs on them as disc and smites them to death?" What's your point here? No priest would - they'd simply mind sear or, if the situation called for it (mobs almost dead / needing heal till WS debuff gone) holy nova.

    "If I'm at 1000 hp, I don't care if I get for 300 or 450 by the mob, I'll pull the heal off. Disc != Holy so heals aren't vastly more powerful that it actually matters anything. And so what if you have to drop shadowform? Shadow priests have tons of mana from dispersion and fiend and spirit tap. It might have been nerfed, but hey, it still works." - First off, you have 0 pushback protection while casting heals in a normal leveling shadow spec, so if you're being wailed on by multiple mobs you may well not get it off. 2nd, disc does have talents that increase the healing throughput to their target via add'l crit, 4% increased healing done, etc, so it is more powerful than shadow - something you specifically said it was no better at aside from penance. Third, disc has spirit tap in a leveling build just the same, along with shadowfiend (longer CD if talented for shadow), and while it doesn't have dispersion it doesn't have the extra expenditure of having to recast shadowform every time it has to do any healing.

    "So I have no idea why are you even mentioning Discipline's shields which are ALMOST no better than shadow priests' shields when you're leveling, seeing the gear you have isn't good." 15% base increase + 40% of SP applied makes for more than "almost no better" but nice way of diminishing the impact through your choice of words. It is better, meaning less incoming damage and pushback, less time from when the shield fails till the weakened soul debuff is gone and you can refresh, and a better chance of surviving pulls where you bit off more than you should have.

    "Re: spell pushback - you got 70% protection as shadow while in shadowform." - You sure do. Of course when you have to pop out to heal, as you've acknowledged you will sometimes need to, you take 15% more damage and have none of that pushback protection to help you get off your heals. And your damage is reduced, of course... (though as an aside I'm curious as to whether DoT's applied while in shadowform are still eligible to crit after you drop out).

    "Seeing as disc doesn't have anything that shadow doesn't, save penance (and PI that's not damaging anything), I see no reason why would anyone choose slower dealing damage spec save for the feeling of fun. Mathematically and trough experience - shadow is faster to kill stuff. Until they grace disc with something else that outdpses shadow, then why are we talking about what's faster and better to level with?" PI = 20% haste on demand (on top of another 6% from talents). I'm sure that as a shadow priest you're not meaning to imply that haste doesn't deliver more dps... I agree that shadow is faster to kill. That point was never one I argued against. But you say "why are we talking about what's faster and better to level with," and faster damage is not necessarily the fastest and best way to level. Again, when I leveled to 80, alternating levels between shadow and disc, I felt no real advantage of one spec over the other when taking everything into account. Not just the killing of a mob here, or group there, but being able to survive the bad pulls rather than deal with the corpse runs.

    "If you enjoy disc or holy to level, fine by me, but don't spread misinformation that it's the same whichever spec you choose or that one of 2 healing specs is more "viable" when clearly it isn't."
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigslick
    Ok, up front let me say that I'm not arguing that disc is better than shadow for leveling, or vice-versa. But I am going to argue that the argument can be made for either. You nailed it on the head in that the issue is about dealing damage AND enduring mobs. It's a balance between the two.
    I did not spread misinformation, but presented arguments for ways in which discipline has distinct advantages over shadow in terms of survivability that can be balanced against the distinct advantages that shadow has in dps. When you use self-validating phrases like "yes it does" earlier or "clearly it isn't" here that doesn't make it so, but it is textually stating your opinion as fact, wherein it is not necessarily more than just your opinion.

    If leveling were strictly a dps race then yes, shadow would win hands-down. But it's not. You have to deal with healing, and downtime, and those pulls that you really wish hadn't just happened. A lot of the time you can make do with shadow and survive those pulls. But in many of those times where you can't, you can lose a lot of time running back to your corpse where a disc priest will have survived. Shadow has more damage utility, but in leveling gear it's not so much more as to totally negate the advantages offered through disc.

    Point being, it's balance. Level in the spec you enjoy - and preferably in the one you'll be maintaining at 80 to become best familiar with its abilities. Level in both if you want (it was actually a lot of fun). But know that each side has its strengths and weaknesses, each will be better suited to different challenges that will await you, and that neither is 'the' superior leveling tree.
    Bigslick (6/14H)
    "Those who deny respect for others deserve it not for themselves."

  18. #18

    Re: Discipline or Shadow

    "Shadow has more mana regen (yes, it does)." - a leveling disc priest will have points into shadow for spirit tap. There's not a big difference here, when you factor in the additional mana you have to recoup to regain shadowform after occasionally dropping it to heal. Also, I always laugh a little when I see people expect their statements to be seen as validated by "yes it does" or "I know it does" or "trust me." I'll grant you that overall mana longevity is a little higher for shadow than for disc, but at the same time a shadow priest will likely die more times leveling than a disc priest, and those corpse runs can be nasty...
    Dispersion (now you also have glyph of Dispersion).
    Replenishment.
    More spell damage.

    And yes, I dropped shadowform to heal, I haven't sat once to drink except once at level 79. Also, there's VE too, only time I dropped shadowform to heal was when I was in deep shit. Also, chaining mana regen abilities allows you to drop shadowform and get back in.

    "Shadow takes less damage from mobs since they die faster" - Unless the incoming damage is more than you can sustain. That fear you throw out that ends up aggroing another group or 2 of mobs is more likely to be the death of a shadow priest than a disc priest.
    I'm sorry, but if you think you can pull like 25 mobs as disc and survive long enough to dps them down than you are very wrong. If you're pulling like 10 mobs, you usually have a path you'll use to run away if things go wrong. On the other hand, SP has dispersion which is perfect for running away if shit hits the fan. You have too many "what if you" cases to justify disc as leveling spec.

    "Who the hell pulls 10+ mobs on them as disc and smites them to death?" What's your point here? No priest would - they'd simply mind sear or, if the situation called for it (mobs almost dead / needing heal till WS debuff gone) holy nova.
    You won't sear at level 70, nor does holy nova do any proper damage, plus it costs tons of mana. We all know it.

    First off, you have 0 pushback protection while casting heals in a normal leveling shadow spec, so if you're being wailed on by multiple mobs you may well not get it off. 2nd, disc does have talents that increase the healing throughput to their target via add'l crit, 4% increased healing done, etc, so it is more powerful than shadow - something you specifically said it was no better at aside from penance. Third, disc has spirit tap in a leveling build just the same, along with shadowfiend (longer CD if talented for shadow), and while it doesn't have dispersion it doesn't have the extra expenditure of having to recast shadowform every time it has to do any healing.
    PW:S, cast flash heal, get back to shadowform. Wow, hard. Also, pushback has been changed, you can't get endlessly interrupted anymore. Worst case scenario is that your flash heal is like 2.5 seconds. And 4% increased healing at low gear levels is just funny, what, you're gonna get healed for 1040 instead of 1000?

    I'll cut this short - if mobs don't get to you, you don't get any sort of damage. In the end, I'll kill mobs faster and in shorter time. Also, I'll have way more mana regen as shadow. So basically, I'll just walk forward like a warlock and decimate everything while leveling, exactly as I did during my leveling when there were no glyphs. I'm not arguing disc's ability to live longer, but come on, are you playing an arena match or leveling?




  19. #19

    Re: Discipline or Shadow

    Who the hell ever has to drop shadowform and heal when they're grinding? Between the uber buffed vampiric embrace and shield and the fact that mobs die ridiculously fast, you never TAKE damage!

  20. #20

    Re: Discipline or Shadow

    I leveled 1-70 as Holy. It was easy. I later leveled a prot pally and it was about the same in terms of speed/ease. Neither one can ever die and both can take on elites 3 levels above them.

    I leveled 70-80 as shadow. It was even easier. If you single pull as shadow the mob is dead in 8 seconds and never touches you. Or you can pull a group, dot them as you run away, fear them all when they get to you, start nuking them down, hope the feared ones pull some adds just to save time, dot the adds, collect loot, disperse as you run off in search of mobs since you've killed every mob in a half mile radius.

    I've tried to kill elites as Disc and I can tell you its much harder than shadow. A shadow priest has 15% reduced damage taken, PWShield, and VE. In most cases elites will die before you do as long as you keep PWS up. Worst case scenario you have to renew, FH, FH, FH, PWS, Renew, disperse, shadow form, shadow fiend, go back to nuking. Its much easier for disc to keep their health up but meanwhile the mobs health is staying up too.

    I dare you to find me a mob that disc can kill and shadow can't. People who say disc can last longer are probably talking about mobs that neither spec can kill... disc just lasts longer doing nothing but healing itself. How pointless is that?

    Go try to solo onyxia at 80 as shadow and then as disc. As shadow she goes down in 6 minutes. Did it first try. You never have to drop shadow form to heal. I didn't even have imp VE. As disc I bet you run out of mana in the whelp phase.

    Below 40 or so holy or disc may be better for leveling. I haven't done that range as shadow. 70+ = Shadow no contest.
    Drunk toddlers in a dryer

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