3000 rated 3v3

[Eroginous]

Let's get one thing perfectly clear: In wow, gear is EVERYTHING. Gear is the equivalent of the handicap function in a side by side fighter like mortal kombat or street fighter. The better your gear is the less of a handicap you have, and you don't have to be as skilled to attain the same level of performance as lesser geared players.


Now when it comes to the Arena system, in s5 it rewarded all these people wearing 2-4 pc t7.5 wielding 25 man weaps who shot up to 2350 ratings with access to the best pvp gear in the game, while all these players who don't pve were stuck trying to get high ratings with craftable pvp blues and weapons. Tell me that doesn't create a huge handicap for new players and teams in s6, because that is what myself and other people have walked into. A HUGE handicap to teams that facerolled FOTM dks/pallies wearing pve gear into high ratings and were rewarded with gear they didn't deserve, creating a barrier that players like myself cannot cross without said gear.


As far as the MMR/team ratings go, MMR is what is used to match you up against other players, yet team rating is what is used to determine whether or not you get better gear, lowering your handicap. Since it is team rating that determines your handicap, it is team rating that should determine your matchups. MMR doesn't account for ANYTHING except for your win/loss record, as I stated before. It isn't an accurate measure of skill at all.


When I noticed the 1867 team that we beat, it was long after we played, I do not remember playing the match, but I saw it in our match record. The issue is that the MMR system does not account for gear, or skill. It accounts for a win/loss record that was derived from a great many factors. Your wins could have come from any kind of match up, whether it was equal gear/skill, you were less geared/more skilled, or vice versa. Your losses could have come from the same situations, but the fact is, you were paired up based on your record, not your team rating.


So what is the purpose of having team ratings at all? Gear? Well that is bullshit. I call bullshit. If MMR is what you are getting paired up against other teams with, then MMR is what should be used to determine gear eligibility. As I said before, the current system rewards you with a Pseudo reward, not an actual reward for actual performance. At the end of the day, no matter what, your number of games played becomes more important that your actual performance.


For instance, let's look at my win record against the 1867 team, while I had 1344. According to our team ratings, I should have never been paired against that team. Since it went according to MMR, I was paired against them. If I had lost that game, I would have lost a lot of points to a team with access to gear I don't have access to, thus pushing me that much further away from the gear I need to get past the handicap.


The bottom line is that arena ratings and rewards are skewed because of the MMR system. You have a system that averages a players wins/losses and decides matches based on that, and then goes and rewards those players gear based on an entirely different number. Something has to give, and they need to consolidate the system in some way.


And anyone who says 'it's about skill, you are obviously not skilled.' Do you not understand the handicap that is imposed on players who don't have the same gear as you? Someone in all blues and greens is never going to do enough dps to kill a player in full pvp epics until the player in blues outplays the player in epics by a substantial degree. I duel fresh 80s in gear all the time, there is a huge difference, and my gear is full deadly. I don't even have to play very hard to win, and I never lose to those people.


The idea that skill > gear is non existent in this game. The equation looks more like this: Performance = skill(enchants+gear+gems)


My whole issue with arena is that you need the gear in order to be successful. It isn't an optional thing. The people who got high ratings in s5 were playing in full pve gear and had a massive advantage over everyone else. At that point it came down to class comp to divvy out the high ratings amongst those players, but in the end, everyone above 2350 was rewarded equally, which, most of them were. This next season, hopefully the resil change makes it stupid to wear pve gear in arena, and gives those of us who actually use pvp gear the ability perform at the expected level.

Last season it was pvp blues vs naxx 25 gear. This season it is hateful/deadly vs furious/ulduar 25 gear. Hopefully next season it will be deadly/furious vs furious/s7.


You see, I like pvp, that is why I play this game. However, when the only rewards for pvp, and the current best gear available come from a system that is as broken as this one is, it makes pvp really unattractive, and people like me don't want to spend more than the 10 game minimum doing arena each week simply because there is no progress being made. I will always be below 1500 as long as MMR is what determines the pairings, and I will never have a shot at removing the handicap to compete on an even playing field.

[Floness]

Sigh. The whole "they out gear us" arguement is very old. Ero have you ever played on Arena Tournament Realm? If you have what was your rating? Was it 2200? Or was it 1400, where you are now? There is simply no reason/excuse w/e you want to call it to not get to at least 1700 in dealy/hateful gear. It is like you are trying to say the only ppl that have got 1850+ got there because they were in full deadly allready. L O L

You play a very poor comp as im sure you are well aware. Shoot, i play a really bad comp on my pve toon Feral Druid/Enhance Shaman both with little to no pvp gear. We are 1400. Im happy with it, cuz we know we are gonna get stomped most of the time. We too only play our 10 games a week. That is really all you can expect with the minimal amount of time put into gear.

On the other hand, I play pretty seriously on my deathknight in 3v3. We are 2k rated with a 2200 MMR (is still not enough games played after we rerolled the team mid season). We regularly play teams anywhere from 1800 to 2400. The teams that beat us, at any rating, have absolutely nothing to do with gear. Sometimes we fail, sometimes we are counter comp'd, sometimes the other team is better.

My point is, even at a lowerish rating like 1400, if you play to that for a whole season, ur gear will be not much worse than that of the glad teams. You cannot, the way the system currently works, just play your 10 games a week and gear up/expect to get to higher ratings.

[Narit]

bad players = below 2050

[diseous]

bad players = below 2050

So you, up until July 15th 2009 at 8:55 pm.

gg

loser

[Eroginous]

Sigh. The whole "they out gear us" arguement is very old. Ero have you ever played on Arena Tournament Realm? If you have what was your rating? Was it 2200? Or was it 1400, where you are now? There is simply no reason/excuse w/e you want to call it to not get to at least 1700 in dealy/hateful gear. It is like you are trying to say the only ppl that have got 1850+ got there because they were in full deadly allready. L O L

You play a very poor comp as im sure you are well aware. Shoot, i play a really bad comp on my pve toon Feral Druid/Enhance Shaman both with little to no pvp gear. We are 1400. Im happy with it, cuz we know we are gonna get stomped most of the time. We too only play our 10 games a week. That is really all you can expect with the minimal amount of time put into gear.

On the other hand, I play pretty seriously on my deathknight in 3v3. We are 2k rated with a 2200 MMR (is still not enough games played after we rerolled the team mid season). We regularly play teams anywhere from 1800 to 2400. The teams that beat us, at any rating, have absolutely nothing to do with gear. Sometimes we fail, sometimes we are counter comp'd, sometimes the other team is better.

My point is, even at a lowerish rating like 1400, if you play to that for a whole season, ur gear will be not much worse than that of the glad teams. You cannot, the way the system currently works, just play your 10 games a week and gear up/expect to get to higher ratings.

You still miss the point. By a lot.

Sure, I play a terrible comp, and I switched to frost at 1100, and 200 games later I STILL can't get past 1350, just too many better geared/skilled players at higher ratings with lower MMRs keeping us pushed down. Sorry, I don't have 10 hours a day to work on my rating, and the hour or so I do have isn't enough.

Winning more than 50% of our games isn't cutting it either. We lose more points for losses than we win, always. That is an MMR issue, and when we go and win 5 games in a row getting maybe 3-5 points a game, then lose one and drop 25 points, that is an issue. So 6 games are played, and our rating goes down, not up, even though we won 87% of the games we played. It doesn't make sense.

[Mysmere]

So you, up until July 15th 2009 at 8:55 pm.

gg

loser

haha owned.

but yeah, you wasted a bit of time armorying him

[Expertise]

Id cry if i got jumped by that rogue...

[Vrillon]

eroginous, you seem to have little idea at all about how the system works. To give you some idea read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system

The way the system is setup is that everyone should be winning about 50% of their games assuming they are playing against teams at their skill level. Now because there is no way to see how good a new team is they are given a buffer of about 100-200games to find the rating their skill level is. This buffer is the difference between your MMR and your team rating. When those are about equal you are at your correct rating. The reason said buffer is needed is so that you and your opponent isn't overly penalized or rewarded for playing against someone that might be much better or worse then them but haven't reached their correct rating. So until the team rating and the MMR about the same, you should consider the MMR your real rating and it takes 10-20 games to have that relatively correct.

To take your example of your own team and the 1867 rated teams. Your team has won 55% of your games and has relatively low number of games played so you are still climbing and you most likely haven't reached your real rating.
The other team has allot of games played and have relatively close to 50/50 win/loss ratio. This means that they are at their real rating, getting the occasional boost because they are either getting better, get lucky or play more against overrated players then underrated players. Also there are some inflation problems in the arena system that will increase their rating slowly if they continue to play.
As I understood it you only played 1game against them. The reason you won against them can be one of many like your actual rating should be about the same as theirs, they played badly, you got lucky or you have team setup that counters theirs well.

Elo systems have problems and there are different elo systems that reduce some problems while increasing others. The Arena system seems to have a relatively high inflation, mostly because there are way more games played by an active arena team then most other places where elo systems are used.
Your suggested system is similar to an Elo system but it has very high inflation and none of the safe guards real elo systems have against abuse and inflation. In a real Elo system if 2 teams are equally rated the team that won will get as many points as the loosing team looses, further if there is a 200point rating difference the lower rated opponent should win 1 of 4 matches so if 2 teams with 200point difference played 4 matches where the lower rated team won 1 match both teams should have the same rating as before the games(this isn't completely true over a small sample size because the ratings change after each game).
Now if we change your system so that for every game teams lost or won 10 points for absolutely all games this would result in basically the same system as is currently in play except you are penalized for meeting someone higher rated then you and rewarded for meeting someone lower rated then you and it would increase the queue time seeing as there might not always be teams with in 50rating of each other though reducing it from 200 would of course lessen the biggest flaw in your system. And seeing as your suggestion was meant to make it so that you couldn't just grind your way up with 51% win/loss ratio, you would still go up 20points for every 100games you played.

If you would have had it 10/-3 like you suggested, 70% of the teams would reach 2350 sooner or later. because you start at 1500 a team that drops below 1400 would just start a new team further increasing the inflation. Lastly no one would play more then 10games to get points if they are above 2300 or maybe they would just play enough games to both get points and get to 2350 again. Getting to 2350 again wouldn't be hard seeing as they would only need to win 1 in every 4 matches.

MMR didn't exist in the first seasons of arena and was introduced to fix the problems your system has. Lastly your system has a major flaw in the fact that there is no bell curve to your ranking making it inevitable for teams to reach the top rating and being equal at the top. The point of a ladder is to rank the teams based on skill and not reward loot. Now I am not a big fan of the introduction of rating requirements for loot seeing as loot complements your skill level. But it isn't so bad seeing as far as you will never meet a player with more then 4-5 pieces more then you if you are at your correct rating and you have all the gear available to you. Such a gear diffrence can be the diffrence in a tight game but it seldom is at the lower levels.


The biggest problem with the current system is how many new teams are made. I think there should be penalties for changing a team, like a maximum number of teams a character can play for in a single season( maybe 3 ) and you can't join a new team for 2 weeks if you leave a team. New season should remove all penalties and no penalties should be given the first week of a arena season.

Lastly to those saying he is wrong about the rating of an average player should check some battlegroups and see what the median team( team ranked in the middle of all teams ) has in rating. In most cases it is about 1300. Now because there are always allot of new teams the average rating is in reality higher then 1300 but I doubt it is over 1500 and the system is created to have the average player at 1500. Just think about your average PuG battleground group and then consider how those players are in arena and you will soon realize that most players are ranked below 1700.

What kind of messes up the arena system since mid S5 is how MMR is done.

Their is little difference in skill, play, and gear between 2100 and 2600 teams, so pick your MMR at anywhere between those ratings, you will go 50-60 win percentage at that level. This is one of the biggest problems with the system is taking someones MMR based on a previous seasons standings and play. The MMR should be the teams rating, then lets implement the win 14 lose 15 method like we seen in TBC instead of the shit system now where its lose to a counter team you should not be playing that is moving up yet 100 rating lower then you, or face a counter team on a shit map thats high rated and yet still lose 8-9 pts.

I wish I could actually say the majority of players pass 2100 is good, but they not, theirs just so much wrong with this system from how its done, down to healing classes, and just how much carrying can actually be done to go high, its quite pathetic.

[Nilinor]

My personal thoughts is that arena should be overhauled from square one, and done a bit more work before released. As it stands it still takes skill, but really the majority of fights (not all of course) are over in a matter of 20-30 seconds of the match starting.

Thats to fast and really requires as much luck and class use as it does skill. Its just not acceptable.

Im not asking for 10 minute battles, but sometimes skill requires more then living for 30 seconds of a fight.

[Vrillon]

the problem is skill only makes up about 5% of every battle, rest is rock, paper, scissors pretty much.

down from the teams you fight with all the ridiculous CC, to the maps that are just dumb as shit, the only real arena that has any real balance is Nagrand. Factor all of that in with exploiters who exploit the MMR, then it throws the brackets into shambles. Where good players could exist lower then higher 40% of the time, the arena system blows because it requires more teams and more teams playing then what it is right now, so you see 2300 MMR vs 2100 MMR where the chance the 2100 counters the 2300. Remember, their is no difference in skill or play at those 2 ratings either, all of that is thrown out the door at 2100+

[svstoned]

At the moment i don't care for anything else but the way to get out of sight for anyone to be removed.
If you run crooked into a line of sight object you can get out of sight just like mobs that evade when they're stuck in a tree or something. (but you have to keep moving)

[rarwzs]

Let's get one thing perfectly clear: In wow, gear is EVERYTHING.

One word: noob!

Gear is very very very far from everything. and u did say something about that ppl cant get higher then 1300 rating coz of gear?!?! Im 110% sure that I can get to 1850 with hateful gear with nps right now. and I have already done it. also I have boost ppl to 1850 with less gear then hateful.

You should spend your time to l2p instead of all the damn text u make.

[Eroginous]

One word: noob!

Gear is very very very far from everything. and u did say something about that ppl cant get higher then 1300 rating coz of gear?!?! Im 110% sure that I can get to 1850 with hateful gear with nps right now. and I have already done it. also I have boost ppl to 1850 with less gear then hateful.

You should spend your time to l2p instead of all the damn text u make.

If you can get past 1300 in hateful grats, you either are rolling a DK/RET or a druid/priest. The biggest problem with arena is the MMR. I was doing 5s this last week with a 1200 rated team. We climb to 1500 within an hour, and our MMR is 1750. All of a sudden every other opponent we see has an MMR of 2200+, with some as high as 2400.

So MMR is working as intended? Putting players that are wearing hateful/deadly against players wearing full furious with weaps? Nevermind our ratings are that far apart, but the MMRs are too.


THAT is why the MMR system is screwed. Then I go back to my 2s team and we play 40 games, win more than 50% of them, and end up with a lower rating than we started with. 2s is so fucked atm it isn't even worth talking about. You can sit here playing your FOTM facerolling autowin shiny class that can hit 1850 in blues defending a system that is of course working in your favor, while I sit here and struggle against teams I shouldn't even be getting paired against.


My point is that yes, GEAR is everything in this game. It dictates exactly how well your character will perform in pvp provided you are playing efficiently. For some classes, gear isn't as important, and for others gear makes a huge difference. When EVERYONE is held to the same standard for gear acquisition, and some teams can get to that standard easily simply because of their comp, then they have access to gear that other teams need in order to get to that standard, something is seriously wrong.

I don't care if you disagree. The simple fact of the matter is I should never get paired against a team who has an 1850 + rating when I am at 1300. Do you know what that does? I get an autoloss because I obviously can't out dps them with their health pool and healing potential, my MMR goes down, I lose points, and I am just that much further along to NOT getting what I need in order to be competitive with the teams I get paired against anyway.

Anyway you spin it, players like me have a better chance re rolling a FOTM class and getting the gear we want that way, than sticking with what we are playing now.

[DMCDante]

If your mmr is around 1750, getting paired with 1850 team is completely fine.

About your 5v5 issue, blame your BG, no other teams queued at the same time as you when you run into much higher ( or lower teams ).