Casual? Hardcore? Life? No Life? - How about a new difficulty setting?

[AeonTeleos]

First, this is my introductory post so I welcome myself to the forum, I browse often (mmo-champion is among one of my many wow related and unrelated home pages, but it garners 'top-dog' status as being the one that appears first), and on the odd occasion I like to look at some interestingly titled forum topics. I see an array of opinions and clashing principles so I offer you an apology now in the event that your opinion differs with mine and this offends you.

In almost every post containing content about PvE (I skip PvP because anyone with 2 brain cells can understand this as worthless discussion based on the fact that everybody only roots for their own class), I see two very distinct groups. One group that is "Casual" one group that is "Hardcore", and let me begin by saying, I respect both. It takes a lot of courage to spend the hours many of the hardcore 'wowers's spend on 'just a game' and I respect that for them, this is an achievement: and so it should be. Synonymously I respect that, like the now casual gamer that I am, other people are unable or unwilling to spend as many hours and prefer to have more challenging and less time consuming portions of the game to spend their time playing. This is my belief so... in terms of opinion consider me jaded.

What I do not understand, is how the "hardcore gamers" can consider the tasks in previous iterations of raid content difficult? The difficulty curve is momentous, now Naxxramas and AQ40, had few difficult fights. Namely Twin Emperors, C'Thun and Thaddius (some may argue more, some may argue less, some may argue different bosses - these are the names most often vocalised by those flaming casual playerrs and how they have ruined 'their' content). Lets think for a moment what has changed:
Player base increased in size, and along with that - fanbase. WoW has the most successful and likely the largest fan following of any game ever made, and with this comes a much deeper and fullfilling understanding of game concepts. Theorycrafting, some like to call it, for those who consider themselves skilled to get the most out of their class. Fanbases also bring with them detailed tactics - describing how to do each encounter, regardless of difficulty.
Have the bosses tactics become more difficult to understand? Yes. In fact, you actually do have to be told something before entering a fight with regular bosses in regular instances throughout WOTLK. - The (possibly) first instance you arrive at (Im exemplifying Nexus) has many bosses with many different tactics for which to complete in order to accomplish the instance. Compare this to... BRD or Scholomance, or Stratholme - "similar" instances (in that they are not raids, not heroics and do not garner any loot you could consider 'epic'), and you will see a considerably HUGE difference between the tactics required. Infact, correct me if i'm wrong but, there is actually very little tactics in those instances at all. Perhaps telling your group to be swift during the Lyceum in BRD and grabbing the torches and lighting the braziers is about as far as tactics go for the whole of the instances.

What hardcore wowers think was hard content, was actually easy content - made difficult by this gigantic grind for items that had to happen before. All Blizzard have done, is removed this grind to favour casual gamers like myself - and have instead upped the difficulty within instances, which is marvelous.


However I have to say, the difficulty is not nearly hard enough. I was happy to reach 80 and be geared enough to tank naxx within 5 days however, naxx was not nearly as difficult as I had hoped in terms of tactics. I present a suggestion and wanted to trial it with you people first, we already have "Hard Mode" encounters that are 'apparently' (im not in Ulduar content yet as I quit and now rerolled) more difficult however I am still seeing complaints which leads me to believe yet another difficulty setting should be imposed.

First, tactics need to be made so difficult that even one mistake will throw the whole thing down the drain, perfectionism, not gear requirement - that is skill. I want to see more boss fights that require accurate positioning and movement - co-ordination between team members where one team member can ruin it for everybody. I want to see fights that involve less of a "tank and spank" architecture, fights that involve perhaps multiple bosses that hit for less, but can only be damaged when arranged in certain patterns, and that inflict certain movement penalties on those they attack so that tactics such as "threat cycling" have to be made, where by one dps lowers their threat to pass the boss onto anothe personso that they can continue moving the boss.

Now may ideas are outlandish but im certain that the design team or indeed the community can think of much more plausible ideas, the main point is - while I'm happy for gear to be good, I'm not happy that a simple faceroll accomplishes 4k DPS in naxx gear. Engage the people playing and make it so everyone must do something other than standing behind a boss hitting 1, 2, 3, 4 and then moving to hide behind an ice block.

And yes, I am well aware of the lack of understanding of some of the people that play the game, which is why I also think that each boss fight should come with a tactical "map" detailing what each person must do for the fight (a sort of 'in game wow-wiki') that describes to them their role within the fight (considering this is what 98% of guilds do anyway - let the first guilds down a boss then watch how they do it and copy).

This is just my understanding of the game at the moment, I also think that epic quality items should be turned to blue and that epic quality items should only be available in "hard mode" encounters, as currently I see purple everywhere and it has kinda lessened the impact of the word.

Thanks for reading, and I appreciate your replies. This is not a QQ, just wondering what you all think - whether or not my idea is a consideration that should be made when Blizzard design new content or whether I am just hoping for too much.

[barrsftw]

from TBC to WotLK wow has actually DECREASED in player base by almost 5 million, so our facts are wrong. WoW was once an 11+ million population game and is now only 6+million. (talking subscribers)

[Nubs]

Everyone knows Naxx was not hard, there's no point to beat a dead horse.

There are bosses in Ulduar where one mess up can mean a wipe. There have been more bosses with such conditions in the past as well, beyond what you mentioned, Archimonde immediately comes to mind. Once you step into Uld hard modes, you'll see that it's much less face roll than Naxx. Even non-hard modes, since you said you haven't been in it yet, will provide some difficulty, especially if you're in a newly formed guild.

[Sucemamarde]

from TBC to WotLK wow has actually DECREASED in player base by almost 5 million, so our facts are wrong. WoW was once an 11+ million population game and is now only 6+million. (talking subscribers)

Take in consideration the biggest pool of WoW player was in China, and their servers are shut down.

If I am not mistaken, by Jan 22, 2008 (a year and a half ago), US servers population was estimated to 2.5 mil and EU servers to 2 mil.

Sure these numbers have increased but at that time it was 4.5 mil for US+EU on a total of 10+ mil subscribers.


Reference: http://www.wow.com/2008/01/22/world-...n-subscribers/

[Sordrak]

wtb TL;DR section kthx

[Mitsa]

First, tactics need to be made so difficult that even one mistake will throw the whole thing down the drain, perfectionism, not gear requirement - that is skill. I want to see more boss fights that require accurate positioning and movement - co-ordination between team members where one team member can ruin it for everybody. I want to see fights that involve less of a "tank and spank" architecture, fights that involve perhaps multiple bosses that hit for less, but can only be damaged when arranged in certain patterns, and that inflict certain movement penalties on those they attack so that tactics such as "threat cycling" have to be made, where by one dps lowers their threat to pass the boss onto anothe personso that they can continue moving the boss.

I think everyone will agree that Naxx was a joke. If a harder, more interesting / challenging instance is what you want, then you should try Ulduar:

“First, tactics need to be made so difficult that even one mistake will throw the whole thing down the drain, perfectionism, not gear requirement - that is skill”
Freya Hard mode- Saplings explode and wipe ½ the raid if not done properly. Raid members must be rescued periodically and there is tremor that does raid damage as well as silences casters that are casting during the tremor.
Vezzax Hardmode- Shadow volleys will 1-shot ranged members. He heals himself if the ranged are not attentive. There is no mana regen on this fight.

“I want to see more boss fights that require accurate positioning and movement - co-ordination between team members where one team member can ruin it for everybody”
Mimiron Hardmode- Ranged dodge a creeping fire, whilst not getting too close to each other as well as avoiding a rotating laser, dodging Rockets that 1 shot and staying in range of healers, as melee run out of novas whilst dodging mines, where the encounter ends when the 3 parts of the boss die (almost) simultaneously.

“I want to see fights that involve less of a "tank and spank" architecture, fights that involve perhaps multiple bosses that hit for less, but can only be damaged when arranged in certain patterns, and that inflict certain movement penalties on those they attack so that tactics such as "threat cycling" have to be made, where by one dps lowers their threat to pass the boss onto anothe personso that they can continue moving the boss.”
I don’t understand this but it sounds cool i guess

There is no comparison between Naxx and Ulduar. Sure, a few bosses are still kinda face-roll, but if you have time, check it out. I think if you try the fights I mentioned above, you wont be disappointed.

[Mansaucer]

I'm going to have to go with "Cool story, bro", because this looks incredibly stupid. What you want is every fight to be like Yogg 0, yet you have no idea what that entails. You will never see those fights where one mistake will throw off the raid because YOU ARE TERRIBLE. You are also suggesting things that have been in the game prior to now, and have been modified or not reused for bosses for various reasons (lag, bosses being irritating rather than hard, things being so difficult nobody but a bunch of Frenchies that do this for a job can complete) so nothing you say is 'outlandish' or even new for that matter. It's reused idiocy and whining.

Also, having an 'ingame wow-wiki' would quite possibly be the stupidest thing possible as it would take all the invention of strategy and the 'new-ness' of bosses out completely.The whole point of this game is that things are somewhat open ended, especially the really hard stuff.

Never come back to the forum.

[SoulPoetry]

from TBC to WotLK wow has actually DECREASED in player base by almost 5 million, so our facts are wrong. WoW was once an 11+ million population game and is now only 6+million. (talking subscribers)

gonna have to say source or gtfo

[Mansaucer]

Also, why is this in the Death Knight class discussion? Durr hurr nurr. Learn how to use a forum before trying to design totally extreme wow boss fights.

[Mansaucer]

The only thing I ever see happening is guilds claiming of server firsts, whereby this means that they have studied the tactics of watching a video of a world first and copied it. Congratulations on an unsuccessful troll.

What does that have anything to do with what I said? Had I been all 'Hey retard, PvP is super easy and you are a scrub', then yes. Responding with something else utterly unrelated like 'Guilds get server first' would make a lot more sense in an abstract, artsy sort of way.

However, right here, you're just an idiot. See my above post for more evidence!

[Tigercat]

I'm Hand of A'dal and have done every raid EXCEPT Ulduar, not only Naxx 80.

So you've done every other raid in the game except Ulduar, and yet you think Thaddius was the hardest(and only hard) boss in all of the original Naxx?

You're either lying, or a competely idiot.  Either way, your credibility is nil.

PS: Why the hell is this in the DK forums?

[Exera]

I'm Hand of A'dal and have done every raid EXCEPT Ulduar, not only Naxx 80.

Go do Ulduar and then come back. Seriously.

[Elementology]

Can we just bury this post behind with the thousands of previous posts made with the same concept yet not as much reading required. kthnx

[Mansaucer]

Can we just bury this post behind with the thousands of previous posts made with the same concept yet not as much reading required. kthnx

No. As his first post, it must be made an example of. Bump.

[shoja]

I like this game but they have made raids and the boss fights in them a job not something to have fun in, with your friends. Also you are not even in ulduar and you also are a casual player than why in the hell would you want blizzard to make raid dungeons more harder????? First experience the hard modes than TALK.

[xxzincxx]

I have to say bud, ulduar is where you wanna be if you dont feel challenged. Even now, ulduar 10 is starting to become as easy as naxx is. In the upcoming 3.2 patch, there are going to be many different difficulty settings. 5 man, 5 man heroic, 10 man normal, 10 man heroic, 25 man, 25 man heroic. They are making it so anyone, hardcore or casual can participate in these fights.

(ill talk about a dk, since we're in the dk forums)

I am somewhat between hardcore and no life. My DK has the highest achievement points on my server(between the dk's at least), and is 2nd best geared between the dks. It took a lot of work to get there doing hardmodes and 25 mans. I feel challenged every time i go into ulduar. Come back to talk to us once you have cleared ulduar and tell us the same story from above. I dare ya ;D

Your lover,
xxzincxx

[Tigercat]

I have to say bud, ulduar is where you wanna be if you dont feel challenged. Even now, ulduar 10 is starting to become as easy as naxx is. In the upcoming 3.2 patch, there are going to be many different difficulty settings. 5 man, 5 man heroic, 10 man normal, 10 man heroic, 25 man, 25 man heroic. They are making it so anyone, hardcore or casual can participate in these fights.

(ill talk about a dk, since we're in the dk forums)

I am somewhat between hardcore and no life. My DK has the highest achievement points on my server(between the dk's at least), and is 2nd best geared between the dks. It took a lot of work to get there doing hardmodes and 25 mans. I feel challenged every time i go into ulduar. Come back to talk to us once you have cleared ulduar and tell us the same story from above. I dare ya ;D

Your lover,
xxzincxx

As a note, those additional modes that will be seen in the Coliseum will not apply to previous raids such as Ulduar.

[volar]

TBH I have not found anything in this game remotely difficult,

Go get "heroic :alone in the darkness" it's that hard that the 4 (?) guilds who've actually defeated the encounter 3-4 MONTHS after ulduar was released do not want to repeat it because it's difficulty isn't even fun anymore.
not to speak of glory of the ulduar raider, vezax HM, mimiron hard pre-nerf, algalon heroic... etc etc.
top guilds yelled things like "best boss ever!" "most challenging boss for a very long time!" when they managed to down mimiron heroic hardmode. just wait for 3.3 hardmodes.
wotlk is FAR from easy unless you stay with the easy-modes.

[Frostweaver]

HM .. i really do not know what the heck would u ppl like from the game.. maybe make it urself in game to define what u want from game to give u????.. in the not so distant past i remember going to store / buy game /play game was not so bad idea and ppl would put things like this is a good game or this is a bad game and all the things would stop there.... huh i guess things develop and all but WTF all u do is talk shit like i want this i want that and similar things.. funny things is there is a lot of ppl who dont even play WOW anymore and are posting on forums on how this is a shit game and they think this would be better..huh makes me wonder what hobbies they have.. well my point is this game is good.. this game is BIG and im going to like it whatever they do with it.. cos it is most developed game atm in the whole world and its really going to be hard to make something similar to it.. but i think if anyone can blizz can.. now i dont really see much sense in all those non constructive QQ-s well everyone has its own opinion so im not going to say u dont have right to say that but its all without much sense... cos tbh no one cares ... -.-

[Tigercat]

"...these are the names most often vocalised by those flaming casual playerrs and how they have ruined 'their' content"

Did you read the post, or did you just read what you wanted to read?

I read it. You see, I'm also capable of these things called thinking for myself, and using logic.

The way you worded it implied that you yourself did not raid there, at least not at 60. If you had, you wouldn't have bothered with such a ridiculous claim as Thaddius being the hardest boss there regardless of the source. Should I have added a third option, that you were purposefully misleading people because you know your arguement is retarded, to my previous post?



Wait, nevermind. You just said Kael was the hardest boss of TBC. M'uru would like to have a word with you about your ignorance and/or stupidity.