Dont remove Arena... but change BGs to this to make them BETTER than arena!

[Clockwork Pinkie]

Somewhat, but if you're a caster rolling in PvP gear in a BG you are wasting good crit and haste when you equip your PvP gear. You're still squishy no matter what. You can have 1000 resil, a ret pally will still Hammer of Justice you and you will be dead before you know it. So why not attempt to at least get 2 10k crits in 2-3 seconds on him and i dunno, maybe kill him :3.

As for the ideas, they would be nice, maybe people would actually try to win them. For now their just things do it if it's the daily, BG weekend, bored, or just turned max lvl and need good ol welfare epics.

[Flyboy39]

Sounds to me like you want to make the BG's more like Arena's tbh. Rank system, gear associated with it...You just want to go back to vanilla wow don't you?

[Qarling]

It does seem arena dominates all mind sets of PvP atm. I agree they need to fix pvp, mainly BGs. Battlegrounds are meant to be fun, not a afk fest for honor. I like the idea of maybe a halo 3 type thing, where the more you BG, the higher rank you get, maybe not the original rank system as before, but even a slight change for those who try and actually dont just farm honor get more. I would suggest a bonus maybe, top KBs, HKs, flag caps, bases assaulted, and things like this. Like for those who return the flag 10 times, do most damage, and most KB, and capped the flag 2 times, get the same honor as someone who just farmed HKs. Bigger bonuses for actually capping the flag in WSG, assaulting a base in AB/EotS, especially with the 20 minute cap in WSG coming soon. A flag cap will be rare as it goes on, especially with the games where both teams have 3-4 healers and a very well geared tank.

Why not make Battlegrounds a rank system? Base it on a lifetime victory ratio that give you either bonus honor for hitting the next rank, or lets you get gear other than arenas. Since you already cant get weps or shoulders in 2v2, something THEY made. Instead of fixing 2v2, they make it so you cant get some gear, forcing people to do 3s and 5s. I dont know if 5s are broken, or just not as fun as 2v2 and 3v3, but something is wrong with it. Battlegrounds are meant to be fun, maybe make games where there is a new challenge that awards more honor, such as not dying gives you more honor, defending a flag, getting a HK on a grey base. Things like this to help people win and get more honor by doing simple things.

These are all rough ideas, I didnt get a chance to read the whole thread and im sorry if i repeated anyones ideas, but BGs for me are losing their fun. At first achievements made them more fun, but now im down to the really gay ones, like Quick cap...and ironman. Things that are impossible unless you have an amazing premade or 10v1. This kind of kills the fun, but oh well. Sorry for grammar and mistakes.

[Eroginous]

Arena dominates the pvp environment because the best gear comes from arena. You cannot get the best gear for pvp without doing it, so anyone who values pvp 'skill' automatically asserts that arena is the most skilled part of pvp. Quite the contrary, in fact, BGs take more skill and coordination than arena. With BGs, you have an objective to meet, and you need your entire team to be functioning on the same page in order to fulfill that objective.

While killing is a part of BGs, it isn't what wins the game for you. Same goes for damage/healing done, or KBs/HKs. Too many terrible players focus on these numbers to display some degree of skill, and it becomes obvious just how bad they are when you lose and they are going 'look at me I got top kills/damage.'

Now, the problem with BGs isn't that it is it is lame or boring, the problem is that they are too 'grindey' and the rewards aren't worth it. What is the object of this game? To improve your character through gear acquisition. The very core of the game is designed around this idea. Get better gear, enjoy harder content. Get better gear, PVP better.

Because of this fact, most people who do BGs are after gear, but since it takes so long to get something, they figure 'hey, why not afk bgs until I can afford that upgrade.' The players who need the most gear become the biggest perpetrators of this. People who actually want to BG are discouraged from doing so because they become the only member on their team in a BG who is actually trying to win. Everyone else is afking or kill farming on the road between flags/nodes/towers.

The solution to this problem is a combination of three things:

- First, they need to make available the same exact rewards for bgs as for arenas. Blizzard gets zero dollars from rated arena on the live servers, there is no reason for them to try and push arena there because players who want to arena seriously will just join the arena tournament server and pay $25 for the season.

- Second, they need to increase the amount of honor that each bg gives accross the board, and decrease the amount of honor for killing blows/honor kills. Each kill should only ever give like 1 point. The reason why I say this is because the emphasis needs to be placed on the objectives of the BG. Players aren't there to get the most kills or damage. They are there to complete an objective, and move on to the next BG.

However, something needs to be done to lessen the grindey aspect to make BGs actually appealing. If players can feasibly get a new piece of gear every day or two without spending 20 hours bging, they will be a lot more prone to spend time in BGs anyway.

- Lastly, they need to change the mark turn in quest back to the single mark system. Some BGs are never the daily, and some BGs stay the daily for a week at a time. Likewise, some players can't stand one or two of the BG maps, and it seriously causes playing to stop participating in BGs when they have to do one they don't like repeatedly just to accumulate an even number of marks to turn in for the quest.


Blizzard has the potential for a great pvp system, but they fail when it comes to implementation. Whoever decided to put arena in the game should have been shot for it. Thank you for killing world pvp and battlegrounds you satan spawn.

[Deleted]

I agree that BGs are boring and Blizzard could definitely improve them. But how can you seriously suggest that BGs should give as good or even better gear than arena does? Or that BGs take more 'skill' to play? I seriously wonder if any of these persons throwing these suggestions has actually been above even the 2350 weapon rating. I think not.

[Exeeter]

I agree that BGs are boring and Blizzard could definitely improve them. But how can you seriously suggest that BGs should give as good or even better gear than arena does? Or that BGs take more 'skill' to play? I seriously wonder if any of these persons throwing these suggestions has actually been above even the 2350 weapon rating. I think not.

Im going to post this again.. since many poeple here jump to the last page of the thread and respond with poorly informed posts.. instead of searching the thread for the good solid suggestions and posts that are on here...


Quote from: Proyouknow on July 25, 2009, 02:54:18 am
Arenas are about competetive gaming, Battlegrounds will never come close to the skill and effort that Arena players seek.


and I said....

"So a match of tennis doubles is more prestigious then say a game of worldclass soccer? let me ask somthing... 15v15 ab both teams are arranged and have all the key classes and specs available.. and both teams are in full furious pvp gear with the BiS that the game can offer

team a) bunch of highly skilled arena players that dont bg
team b) bunch of players that partake in Organized bgs all the time

can u really put one if front of the other as far as respectable standards go? i personally think not.. by a large margin too..

There are many competitive games out there right now that MLG would gladly take in that have teams exceeding 10 players or even 15.. why cant any atention be brought to this in wows bgs? because its too hard to implament in the actual game itslef? plz... im sure there are pleny of people who would love to get a team together to demonstrate there strategy and coordination prowess over anothers.. especially in solid formulas like CTF or KotH."



.. Understand? You are missing the point completey. The current BG system of COURSE cant be compared to arena as far as rewards and skill gauge go.. no one is arguing that.

However u need to understand that large scale team play is just as delicate as 2s 3s or 5s.. like Eroginous said... arena offers the best gear, that is why its regarded as the end all be all pvp aspect of the game, wich makes complete sense.

Here let me explain... why do u think BLizz took out 40 man raids? ill tell you, its because of the difficulty that went into organizing and managing 40 different players online via game interface.. and as a result very few people were able to experience the content..

BGs are the same way.. how can u implement an organized bg team system with so many heads to manage for lets say an av? u cant..

Trust me... if rated WSG and AV offered rated win-loss rewards for organized team play.. there would be alot more pvp players taking it as serious as a 10 or 25 man pve raid....

[Blightyboy]

Was reading all the "ditch arena" comments on the "what would you change" thread. Arena isnt bad, but what kind of battleground system would we have if arena didnt exist? One with a ranked system? One where you went in to HAVE FUN and to WIN rather than to grind honor? Maybe where you wouldnt hear "let them win, I want to get my mark and move on"?

TL;DR

(1) More honor for winning, completing objectives, etc. None for kills.
(2) When a BG ends, you can choose to 'requeue with this group'.
(3) Three tier levels per BG queue: the green, blue, and purple tiers. Winning promotes you / your team to the higher tiers, which are worth more honor. (see next post for more info)
(4) On BG holidays, an orange tier for that BG becomes available. Winning at orange gives access to top gear.

Full story, explanation, FAQs, etc at:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...n4LQnQEcEAFGhu

Edit: changed the title to indicate that no, we dont HAVE to remove Arena.

My personal complaint about Arena is more directed at its effects on balance rather than its entertainment value. Competitive, controlled-environment rating-based PvP introduced a second area of the game that had to be balanced in detail alongside PvE, which created lasting problems. When PvP didn't require extremely specific balancing, in my opinion, things were better. But then, Arena came, and PvP balance between classes became "srs bsns", and in some cases, a required buff/nerf to a class's PvE/PvP ability created an un-needed change to its counterpart. I think PvP in the game would have been fine with just BGs.

As much as I don't like to say it, when it comes to Arena PvP, everything-is-the-same blandness is good for balance. A game with so many different specs belonging to different classes doesn't seem suited to an Arena-like system, and that's not taking into account gear differences, racial differences etc.

[Eroginous]

I agree that BGs are boring and Blizzard could definitely improve them. But how can you seriously suggest that BGs should give as good or even better gear than arena does? Or that BGs take more 'skill' to play? I seriously wonder if any of these persons throwing these suggestions has actually been above even the 2350 weapon rating. I think not.

Let's talk about '2350' for a minute. If by 2350, you are talking about the personal/team ratings attached to your 2s/3s/5s team, you need to understand something. Your team/personal rating is absolutely meaningless in arena. It does not dictate who you get paired up with, it does not indicate your level of skill. It simply indicates the level of pvp gear you have access to.

Now, the number that indicates who you get paired with and how skilled you are, is MMR. Your MMR is derived from averaging your wins/losses around a 50% win ratio (1500). It is entirely possible to hit 2350 with a 1500 MMR. In fact, MOST teams out there are right around 50% win ratio. Does this mean you are good? Honestly, not really. Last I checked 50% was an F.

However, people latch on to the number that gives them gear access and parade that number around as if it actually means something. In this game, gear is a handicap. The better gear you have, the less of a handicap you have. If you have 2 players of equal skill level, and one of them has full furious w/ weapon, and the other is full hateful with a titansteel weapon, the one with the better gear will win every time.

This is why the arena rewards system is flawed. It does not reward actual skill, it rewards those who simply play more games and spend more time doing arena, than those who don't. If you play 20 games a day, 5 days a week, and maintain a 50% win ratio, you will climb to 2350 over time. The fact of the matter is you will have access to better gear at 1500 than anyone who is at 1300, even if they have the same MMR as you. You will have access to better gear at 1850 than anyone at 1300, even if they have the same MMR as you. You will have access to better gear at 2350 than anyone at 1300, even if they have the same MMR as you.

Now, if you reward play in BGs the same as you reward arena play, people can gear up through BGs and then come to arena without a handicap. You can then compete for titles and mounts instead of gear that you will never see otherwise. I am not a big fan of the current arena system, I think that MMR should be the number that rewards gear, not personal/team ratings, but hey, I tend to think in terms of common sense, so what do I know?


As far as BGs taking more skill than arena, of course they do. In arena you have a small team that simply has to kill the players of the other team, and you win. Pretty damn straightforward. In BGs, it doesn't matter how many times you kill people from the opposing team, you still have to complete an objective in order to win. It seems to me that too many people in BGs place this importance on kills/damage and not enough importance in completing the objective and winning.

It simply takes more skill/coordination to carry a flag from one base to another while keeping your flag at the base, than it does to simply kill people form the other team. The whole point of BGs is being in the right place at the right time to carry out the objectives in the right fashion, while the whole point to arena is to kill the other team before they kill you. Sorry, but killing 2 people before they kill you is way easier then staying alive against 10 people long enough to cap a flag or hit 2000 points.

Simply simply simply simply simply.

[darkwarrior42]

Shhh... you're using common sense. The elitist Arena players around here won't appreciate that.

[Battousai]

Personally I'd like to see Honor bought epics with resilence (as it is...uselss in pve basically) for BGs and WGs. Basically what the arena gear is now. So you have your really hard to kill people that have been doing BGs for a long time. A bg rating system is cool...you could do that, but it would end up being based on wins/loss ratio instead of honor gained...but it should have no effect on the gear...only titles, mounts and acheivements.

However, arena is a whole different story. What I want to see for arena is something that will never happen. A standard set for each class...usable ONLY in arena. Everyone automatically gets it...so all the matches are unreliant on gear...simply on skill. 2's/3's/5's...everyone zones in with a full set of equipment that is usable only in the arena...not in pve, bgs, or world pvp.

Personally I feel your goal in the arena should be titles/mounts/achievements...gear needs to be even for that to be true...no more Warglaive rogues, Valnyr prot paladins (cause those are gonna be sick when they start popping up)...etc.