European Maintenance, Blue posts

[Boubouille]

[EU] - Maintenance and Servers Upgrade

The second and final stage of modifications for the realms we listed in the original post has now been completed successfully. These realms are now live and open for play.

As we mentioned, later this afternoon we will be posting up a feedback thread to gather your thoughts and feedback following the changes we have implemented. Thanks everyone.

Blue posts

Players limit in Wintergrasp in 3.2
There are simply too many people who are affected by the Wintergrasp lag for us to leave the issue as it stands. A change is necessary to make the Wintergrasp playable by those who truly want to participate in it. We feel that this is the best choice that we have available to us currently and that this will improve the overall quality of the experience Wintergrap players will have.

[...] The issue is a complicated one, but as soon as we're able to support the number of players that are involved in Wintergrasp without debilitaiting latency, we fully intend to make the zone function as it was originally intended. (Source)

Phasing and revisiting the old world
We have our own thoughts on what to do with the phasing technology and how to accommodate the ever-increasing number of MMOs making their way on to the market. Phasing is not actually instancing - you exist on the same world as other players, only obfuscated from their view, just as they are invisible to you.

As for updating the "Old World", we've touched on this in the past. It's simply not something we can just patch in, as it would require far too much development time to revisit this older content. It's something we may think about doing in time. (Source)

Battlegrounds in 3.3 and at Blizzcon
I will agree that we need to focus more on BGs. And to be fair we are in this very next patch, and there will be more announcements at Blizzcon. (Source)

PvP balance in Battlegrounds
However, to play devil's advocate, PvP balance issues manifest themselves a lot more sharply in Arena than in BGs. I don't think it's appropriate to spend 75% of our PvP time on BGs because 75% of the players are there (I made those numbers up). Things like diminishing returns on crowd control or dispel protection are just a lot less of a big deal in most BG encounters because there are more breaks in the fighting, you're fighting different people, and the strategy has more going on than just killing the other guy. I love BGs - don't get me wrong. But they tend to be more sensitive to say map issues than class issues. (Though again, because I know it will be taken out of context if I don't caveat it, class issues can definitely affect BGs.) (Source)

Arena vs. Raiding
It's not a very strong argument to say you don't like something and therefore we should remove or downplay it when it should be pretty clear that thousands of players do like it. Fewer players participate in Arena than raiding, but that shouldn't surprise anyone because we made a concerted effort in LK to get a lot more players into raiding, and it worked. I'm not sure it's a good idea to try and push a lot of players into Arena. We would like to get a lot more players into PvP, but I suspect many of them would have more fun in Battlegrounds. Arena isn't for everyone, and it doesn't need to be. Some players really enjoy it and we understand why. If you want to participate in these role forums however, you aren't going to be able to just dismiss PvP (or PvE) concerns just because that play style doesn't interest you. (Source)

Paladin
Retribution dps in 3.2

We do want to make sure Ret's PvE dps is high enough for those players without great weapons (on which the spec is perhaps too dependent). We want overall for your dps in 3.2 to be higher than in 3.1 in equivalent situations and gear. We think it will be, but we'll keep an eye on it. So far most of the posts I've seen on the subject seem overly concerned with the ramping issue. (Source)

Reasons behind the changes to Retribution
We needed to nerf Ret pretty hard for PvP reasons. Some of you just aren't going to accept that change was needed, and I suspect it would take several long threads to convince you otherwise, so I'm not going to spend a great deal of effort in this thread trying to do so. I know it is frustrating that we have had to nerf Ret so many times this expansion. It is frustrating for us too. We keep trying to not overdo it and we keep underdoing it.

We did make the changes with some longer-term changes in mind to get Ret to be less about huge upfront attacks that will hopefully give Ret players some more intersting options with regard to Seals and special attacks. We're not there yet, but we have changed paladins dramatically for LK and it's going to take some time.

[...] We did make a lot of changes to the Seal and Judgement system for LK, and we're really happy with those changes overall. Like any big set of changes, they have taken a lot of iteration to complete the design. If you don't buy that, just look at the amount of change the DK class endures every patch. There are some problems we still have to solve for Ret (make sure Seal choice feels meaningful, find a niche for Crusader Strike, give low-level paladins something to do besides autoattack, etc.) but there are problems we still have to solve for all the specs in the game. (Source)

Balancing PvP and its consequences on PvE
PvP balancing affects PvE balancing all the time. The opposite happens too. My comments were more about how it's pretty futile to say "I don't care about PvP, so you should just make changes that affect PvE and not care about the consequences."

WoW is a PvP and PvE game. We're not asking you to participate equally in both. We are asking you that if you want to participate in class mechanics and balance discussion that you not just dismiss one or the other as irrelevant.

I'm also not saying that if your PvE damage sucks because of a PvP change that we're okay with that.

Backing up, a lot of PvP players have become really frustrated trying to handle high burst damage from a class that can turn around and remove a lot of the crowd control used to counter them and even prevent a lot of incoming damage. They're talking about you (and sometimes DKs). Unless we're willing to go in and take apart the defense mechanics (which to be fair, some players have advocated), we have to reduce the burst damage. A stacking dot is a great way to reward sustained damage at the expense of burst.

However, as we have said, the goal was not to nerf Ret in PvE. Ret paladins may have been slightly behind in Ulduar, at least until they got very good weapons. We think the Seal changes will elevate Ret's sustained PvE damage over where it is on Live. If we're wrong, we have knobs to turn, such as increasing the amount of the dot or ways to apply it. We understand many players are concerned about short fights or fights where you have to retarget. To be fair, a lot of classes have the same problems. If anything, we are adding more ramp up time to more classes as a way of toning down PvP burst. The Feral druid who has to peel off of Hodir at 4 cps in order to free an NPC is going to be pretty frustrated too. Deciding when it's worth it to do so or when you're better off not changing targets is one of those skills that makes you better or worse at the game.

Movement fights are a slightly different issue. We make you move in PvE because it's a challange. You're not supposed to be able to trivially overcome it.

It's also not fair to characterize all of the Ret changes as for PvP only. As one example, we have struggled with the damage recoil on Seal of Blood for some time. Players didn't seem to particularly like it. It felt like a liability in PvE and it didn't add a balance offset to the abilitiy in PvP. So we removed the mechanic. (Source)

[Indraani]

Hopefully we will be able to raid in a normal way with the new hardware changes. Silvermoon tended to be really laggy before the summer vacations started.

[Stonepony]

Is this the same realm modifications the U.S. realms received in the past, or is this a new upgrade that all realms across WoW will be getting? Just curious b/c many of the U.S. realms still have stability issues.

[Navarra]

I wish they could do some World PvP phasing in old world. Azeroth now is just used for leveling or ganking...

And I'm a bit tired of the usual sandbox pvp

[Texranes]

Nearest future...

The war begins between the PvP and PvE. thousands of dead...

Giant Asteroid Falls on Planet "Retradinia" kill's 60% of Ret's population

[dadou131988]

Why is it that things like this happen to Ret Paladins RIGHT just before the patch goes live?

[wildi]

We feel that this is the best choice that we have available to us currently and that this will improve the overall quality of the experience Wintergrap players will have.

Yes discouraging people from playing wintergrasp is an awesome solution.

I don't think it's appropriate to spend 75% of our PvP time on BGs because 75% of the players are there.

Do you think bgs should be ignored and the game should be balanced around the minority who play other forms of pvp ?

PvP balance in Battlegrounds

There is no balance in pvp bgs because you balance pvp completely around arena. Pala, dks & healer dominate bgs, everything else is free kill.

It's not a very strong argument to say you don't like arena and therefore we should remove or downplay it when it should be pretty clear that thousands of players do like it. Fewer players participate in Arena than raiding.

Balancing all forms of pvp around the arena minority kills battelgrounds and screws over pve. Pvp should focus more on bgs & world pvp.

[bbr]

Battlegrounds in 3.3 and at Blizzcon
I will agree that we need to focus more on BGs. And to be fair we are in this very next patch, and there will be more announcements at Blizzcon. (Source)

Eh, why?

AV the way it was was epic, grand, huge and time consuming.
A lot complained about it, but it was the most FUN battleground to actually play.

Then it got nerfed... And was just a grind since. >_< it sucked.
They need to add a battleground that emulates the old AV, without the " av marks " so it doesn't get nerfed into a 10-20 minute sprint to the other side.

[Deleted]

[size=3][b]

Paladin
Reasons behind the changes to Retribution
We needed to nerf Ret pretty hard for PvP reasons. Some of you just aren't going to accept that change was needed, and I suspect it would take several long threads to convince you otherwise, so I'm not going to spend a great deal of effort in this thread trying to do so. I know it is frustrating that we have had to nerf Ret so many times this expansion. It is frustrating for us too. We keep trying to not overdo it and we keep underdoing it.
(Source)

Massive QQ incoming, but Rets are fine, always were, right? ;D

In yer face, booya!

Just love to see the whining about how many of you will quit/reroll now. Am I trolling? Bloody hell, yes! But I don't care. ^^

[Malleus]

"If anything, we are adding more ramp up time to more classes as a way of toning down PvP burst. The Feral druid who has to peel off of Hodir at 4 cps in order to free an NPC is going to be pretty frustrated too."

Yes, because it's so frustrating for a Feral to be doing his normal DPS, pop Rip/Savage Roar/FB like he was going to anyway at 4 CPs, move onto another target, then move back to Hodir and get his 4 CPs back within three GCDs. It's every bit as frustrating as a Retribution Paladin losing 25% DPS for 12 seconds while he builds up 4 stacks, having to switch targets and being nerfed for the first 15 seconds there too, then switching back and having to spend another 15 seconds at 75% output.

Let me simplify that, so you can see how bad it is. Druids ramp up in 3-4 GCDs and are not nerfed while they do so. Paladins ramp up in 10-12 GCDs and are nerfed 25% while they do so.

"Deciding when it's worth it to do so or when you're better off not changing targets is one of those skills that makes you better or worse at the game."

Freya triplets, Hodir's Flash Freeze, Yogg-Saron P1 and P2, Mimiron P3, Thorim P1, Razorscale air phases and XT-002 all require constant target switching. I'd love to hear the rationale for making Retribution Paladins completely non-viable in Ulduar.

It is time to request that Ghostcrawler be dismissed for gross incompetence.

[Sillicur]

Massive QQ incoming, but Rets are fine, always were, right? ;D

In yer face, booya!

Just love to see the whining about how many of you will quit/reroll now. Am I trolling? Bloody hell, yes! But I don't care. ^^

HAHA exactly. They all said Rets are fine and other classes just needed to L2P. Guess what? YOU WHERE NOT FINE. You where never fine. Just needed a nice bluepost to confirm this.

[Evilmoo]

ret's will be fine.
no more two shotting targets while in hoj.

[funkeh]

Wow....seems Blizzard directed their comments about the expected massive QQ right at you. Come again..why were Paladin's in all the xtremly high rated cookie cutter teams?

http://www.sk-gaming.com/arena/

show me where's ret in those "xtremly high rated cookie cutter teams" dipshit

[Elsydeon]

A blue that says what many raiding ret pallies have been saying for months; we don't want to get nerfed because of bad people in 2's teams that consist of a 2 warriors in PVE pleather

What the blues aren't saying is that most of the outright naked seething hate on the forums is because the new longer lead-in (we didn't mind a slight ramp time)

What is of extreme concern in PVE is how long the ramp time is (optimally 5x weapon speed, however this is assuming 100% time on target, and doesn't count for target switching), especially compared to other melee, many whom don't have a ramp time or have a very short ramp time (shamans, dk's), can carry over elements to the next target (rogue SnD, rage and runic power); the problem is that we don't raid patchwork test bots or target dummies, but bosses, where target switching is important (XT heart phase, Auriaya feral defenders, hodir's ice blocked people, the entire arena in thorim, all of yogg, razorscale trash and her initial landing cycles, the various add phases on freya except maybe the big tree dude, in other words, all 3.1 non-vehicle bosses except ignus and vezax, which are much like patchwork for ret pallies, especially because we cant interrupt the latter)

[Texranes]

Aaaaaaaand the winner iiiiis..........Ghostcrawler!!!! In this dramastic fight between Ret's community and Blizzard Chieftan Gc takes first place!! Congratulations!!!

[lusisia]

ret's will be fine.
no more two shotting targets while in hoj.

Day one of patch 3.0 called. They'd like to remind you that we're now in patch 3.1 and that 2 shots were hot-fixed the first day.

Show me one APPROPRIATELY geared person who gets 2-shot in a single Hammer. It doesn't happen.

Let's not forget that resilience will now be affecting ALL damage from players.

The fact of the matter is that NO dps class would find it acceptable that they had to perform at 25% below their potential until 17 seconds had passed. We simply will be doing subpar DPS until we get 5 melee swings connected. That's all there is to it. It's a terrible mechanic. The problem is they can't seem to figure out how to give Seal of Crap a pvp utility to MAKE people want to use it.

But if you find the ramp up acceptable then rogues should only get combo points on melee strikes. Same for druids. Only after 5 of course. Let's make sure warlocks on get the affect of a DoT after they've wanded 5 times. He said they wanted to expand the ramp up times to cut burst.

[superstargoddess]

"Players limit in Wintergrasp in 3.2
There are simply too many people who are affected by the Wintergrasp lag for us to leave the issue as it stands. A change is necessary to make the Wintergrasp playable by those who truly want to participate in it. We feel that this is the best choice that we have available to us currently and that this will improve the overall quality of the experience Wintergrap players will have.

[...] The issue is a complicated one, but as soon as we're able to support the number of players that are involved in Wintergrasp without debilitaiting latency, we fully intend to make the zone function as it was originally intended."

Get better servers, you cheap bastids!

[Isah]

TBH I think they have left themselves open to add 'stacks' on particular attacks if they deem it necessary. One obvious PVP friendly spell that would be add stacks is Consecration as it's something people can move out of. One other option is DS. Both AoE and both helping when you need to switch trash. It's a big change and I think they prefer going in low and tune it up as needed.

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the fact they will be quitting over this.

[Vehemence]

Eh, why?

AV the way it was was epic, grand, huge and time consuming.
A lot complained about it, but it was the most FUN battleground to actually play.

Then it got nerfed... And was just a grind since. >_< it sucked.
They need to add a battleground that emulates the old AV, without the " av marks " so it doesn't get nerfed into a 10-20 minute sprint to the other side.

This, shockingly, might be one of the few things I agree with youz....

[mikozero]

The fact of the matter is that NO dps class would find it acceptable that they had to perform at 25% below their potential until 17 seconds had passed. We simply will be doing subpar DPS until we get 5 melee swings connected. That's all there is to it. It's a terrible mechanic. The problem is they can't seem to figure out how to give Seal of Crap a pvp utility to MAKE people want to use it.

But if you find the ramp up acceptable then rogues should only get combo points on melee strikes. Same for druids. Only after 5 of course. Let's make sure warlocks on get the affect of a DoT after they've wanded 5 times. He said they wanted to expand the ramp up times to cut burst.

sha dow priests . . .