One of the biggest warrior PvP issue, pointed out by Swifty.

[GrieverXIII]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTKPv...eature=channel.

Basicaly he explain why at the begining of xpacks or when we start a new warrior, we struggle so much.Then later on we start to see people QQ.

Low gear = Rage Starvation. It will be the same as Xpacks comes out. Any other classes don't have that problem.

[Drakuru]

I don't understand why blizz can't fix this. Its so easy. Warrior's only get rage from white hits, so just add a little formula to the game and tada. Kinda like:
weapon speed (without haste) = WS
rage gain = R
WS/4*25=R
And when it crits:
WS/4*40=R
This way warrior's get rage from white hits, still gain more then just auto attack from haste (kinda like comb. rogues) and just make it trigger from every (non-heroic) whit hit.
Edit: if you let it trigger from absorbs, this also fixes the absorb problem. If it would be to OP against priest just make it so it doesn't trigger on absorbs. And blizz can always change that 25 rage in the formula

[Faínt]

Ghostcrawler has said many a time that he doesn't think rage is where it should be, but as its such a massive development/change, they need alot of time to fix it, so they will more than likely fix this in the upcoming expansion.

[GrieverXIII]

Ghostcrawler has said many a time that he doesn't think rage is where it should be, but as its such a massive development/change, they need alot of time to fix it, so they will more than likely fix this in the upcoming expansion.

Like they are suposed to fix vanish for rogues since...forever?

[gherkin]

Like they are suposed to fix vanish for rogues since...forever?

Vanish is fine, nerf stuns.

Wait, what?

[gherkin]

Ghostcrawler has said many a time that he doesn't think rage is where it should be, but as its such a massive development/change, they need alot of time to fix it, so they will more than likely fix this in the upcoming expansion.

This. They know the problem, they are willing to fix it, but doing so in the middle of an expansion is a bad idea in their opinion. Nothing says fail more than "Oh hey we just broke your warrior tanks and they have to relearn how to play. Good luck with hard modes!"

[mapp]

Vanish is fine, nerf stuns.

Wait, what?

look at my sig
/thread

[omglazor]

Blah, so I decided to watch the video after all. (Don't tell me you've never posted without doing so)

He is right in that we are rage starved at the beginning and I am pretty sure everyone knows that. Thing is, it's still workable - getting full Deadly was still possible in S5 even with gimped rage gen, so it's not as tragic as he makes it sound. I am not going to dispute that we are different from other classes in that we are still the most gear-dependent, but at the same time it doesn't really bother me as a warrior. I have a rogue, a paladin and a druid as well and each class plays differently and I enjoy the scaling aspect of my main class (warrior) - there is no hard-pressing reason to change how rage works.

[Bigsilly]

I am not seeing what the big deal is... so we are "starved" of rage when we're low on gear, but gear is extremely easy to come by now. What's your point?

exactly, you can get almost a full suit of epic plate, weapons AND 2 decent 2H axes from the new 5 man. Even a nice ArP trinket

[omglazor]

I don't understand why blizz can't fix this. Its so easy. Warrior's only get rage from white hits, so just add a little formula to the game and tada. Kinda like:
weapon speed (without haste) = WS
rage gain = R
WS/4*25=R
And when it crits:
WS/4*40=R
This way warrior's get rage from white hits, still gain more then just auto attack from haste (kinda like comb. rogues) and just make it trigger from every (non-heroic) whit hit.
Edit: if you let it trigger from absorbs, this also fixes the absorb problem. If it would be to OP against priest just make it so it doesn't trigger on absorbs. And blizz can always change that 25 rage in the formula

for the love of God - don't make me a combat rogue. Weapon speed based rage gen is a bad idea.

[underdogba]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTKPv...eature=channel.

Basicaly he explain why at the begining of xpacks or when we start a new warrior, we struggle so much.Then later on we start to see people QQ.

Low gear = Rage Starvation. It will be the same as Xpacks comes out. Any other classes don't have that problem.

I thought the problem was that rage starvation sets in when your avoidance is too good? Doesn't having worse gear make rage generation trivial because you are taking more incoming damage?

[omglazor]

I thought the problem was that rage starvation sets in when your avoidance is too good? Doesn't having worse gear make rage generation trivial because you are taking more incoming damage?

The topic of discussion are DPS / PvP warriors where rage is generated through white damage. What Swifty is pointing out is that at the beginning of an expansion we have crap gear resulting in low damage, this resulting in low rage gen.

[Abolishment]

Low gear = Rage Starvation. It will be the same as Xpacks comes out. Any other classes don't have that problem.

PvE/Raiding:
Mages at low gear levels do not have the hit they need to begin to DPS properly. Having a 17% chance for any of your spells to fizzle out and do no damage, when you're not doing 'white' or 'background' damage will drop DPS substantially. Haste works to increase DPS but also has a rarely recognized effect of increasing mana consumption.

Priests suffer from the same problem that Mages do, however they also have to worry about healing. Healing spells have the largest mana cost, at the payoff of having good coefficients. The problem is that at low gear levels, not only do your heals do substantially less, but you need more of them to keep people alive and you have far less passive mana regeneration.

Warlocks are very mana-intensive, and use Life Tap to ensure that they have enough mana to DPS from beginning to end. Just like Mages, when you have low hit rating, your DPS suffers immensely, but your mana consumption also greatly increases. Spending three global cooldowns to apply one expensive DoT that will have a portion of its damage resisted every tick is not as efficient as Swifty would leave you to believe.

Rogues may derive their damage from energy, but they also rely on Combo point generation and to a lesser extent, crits or off-hand strikes for both energy and damage. At lower gear levels, their hit, crit, and haste will severely limit their rotation, their damage, and their combo point generation.

Feral Druids derive a lot of damage from their crits and their combo points as well. They rack up perhaps even more combo points than Rogues at higher gear levels, and they need them to make their rotation viable. If they don't have the combo points they need, their procs fall, their bleeds fall, their damage falls apart.

Balance Druids are very similar to Mages and Warlocks. Hit is their damage, but Crit is their regeneration. They need to stack so many stats to make their damage and longevity worthwhile that they too suffer at low gear levels.

Restoration Druids get a lot out of their healing spells, but up until a certain point, the heals are barely worth casting. Heal over time spells do their healing slowly and efficiently, but at low gear levels, you are often times only seeing one or two ticks on a target before they are healed by someone else. Or worse, if your heals are ticking too small, the target may not survive long enough to reach full benefit in a raid damage-intensive encounter. They derive a bit of healing and regeneration from Spirit, which is still a fairly expensive stat for what it does.

Hunters do decent damage at most gear levels, though a lot of evidence is pointing to the fact that they start strong but top-out too early. They pay for their damage, yet are only barely above other classes in DPS. At low gear levels and in longer fights, they are a limited resource class, and will have to spend large amounts of time in Aspect of the Viper to ensure that they will be able to DPS from start to finish.

Restoration Shamans are being left behind by Raiding guilds in endgame, and that is a problem. In addition to scaling poorly and needing amazing gear to be viable, they still don't land in a comfortable spot. At least Warriors can say "it was a rough ride, but now I'm viable", whereas a Shaman may have to stop after just, "it's a rough ride".

Elemental Shamans scale very well off of Haste. It completes their rotation, it helps their mana efficiency, but it's also rare and expensive on entry-level gear. Combine that with the massive crit dependency and the mandatory hit cap, and Shamans end up spreading themselves a little too thin at lower gear levels.

Enhancement Shamans bring nice, non-scaling buffs, but do very little personal DPS until their stats are better. At the very least, all Shamans bring Bloodlust/Heroism to secure one raid slot. But at lower gear levels, bringing more than one may be less than optimal.

Retribution Paladins suffer as Warriors do. If the attack misses, you don't get the cost of the ability back and it goes on cooldown anyways. But what about scaling? Paladins will generally take Haste over Armor Penetration, because a lot of their damage ignores armor anyways. Armor Penetration is a cheap stat with a big payoff to the classes that use it, and it's everywhere on gear now. Paladins have to invest in less-than-optimal stats, with very little options to increase their DPS efficiently until endgame.

Holy Paladins have two entirely different roles depending on gear level. The "do we trust him to use Holy Light?" gear level, and the "kay now make sure neither tank dies" gear level. With the latest round of nerfs, their mana consumption is at an all-time high, with their regeneration dwindling. They used to derive a lot of regeneration and healing from their crits, but with yet another Illumination nerf and a few Intellect scaling/replenishment nerfs, they are back in line with other healers -AT ENDGAME-. That says nothing for the large gap between "entry" and "ready for Arthas".

Protection Paladins suffer as all tanks. Will your threat scale as well as their damage? Is your mitigation high enough? Will healers be able to keep you alive? Tanks have had a very terrible history of needing to outgear an encounter to make up for where others lack. No changes in the future to fix this.

Death Knights are new. They started strong, but it remains to be seen if they will have scaling issues. My money is on 'duh'.

TLR Everyone suffers in entry-level raiding. Suck it up or reroll. Having an epiphany because of Swifty is like having an erection because of Amy Winehouse. If it happens, you might swear it's a legit claim, but the rest of us think you have a mental illness.

[GrieverXIII]

Actualy, the video was pretty much...PvP oriented abolishment :P.

[Abolishment]

Well awesome, because I have a wall of text for PvP as well.

Just kidding.

But the difference between gaining 15 and 22 rage is not as big as it sounds. Especially not compared to the hurdles that Cloth-wearers have to overcome. 800 Resilience until Priests survive a full-duration Kidney Shot? 20,000 HP before Mages stop getting two-shot by Hunters?

The defenses that all casters need to be able to justify standing to cast anything is ridiculous at low gear levels. If anything, warriors do better than most at low gear levels. They have more crit, and their enemies have less resilience. Low resilience levels favor offensive, rather than defensive strategies, and melee attacks over spells.
It's because Melee need a few select stats to do well, whereas casters need a handful of stats to survive, a few more to do damage, and a few more to make sure they don't have to drink mid-battle.

People complain that this game is 'World of Meleecraft' for a reason. Until everything is castable on the move, casters will be at a design disadvantage, in addition to the gear disadvantages they already have.

Swifty is nothing but an attention whore these days. He throws matches to make Warriors look underpowered. In the one where he claims Retribution Paladins are still facerolling overpowered noobs on the PTR, he 'conveniently' fails to Hamstring, Charge, Intercept, fails to Berserker Rage out of Repentance. Then he turns around and in the same video, destroys every Paladin he meets by switching to a Last Stand build. Clearly, it was the extra few thousand health that made the difference, yet he couldn't take a Paladin below 80% when he was in the Piercing Howl build.

In the video where he shows this rage generation problem, he really plays off of the 'rage starved' statement.
Yeah. When I don't charge into battle, get stunned or rooted, use any of my cooldowns, take any damage, and have a zero percent crit chance, I'm rage starved.
If Hamstring or Bleeds were cleansable, he'd have a case. But luckily, he knows that any effect he puts on an enemy is going to stay there until it wears off or his enemy pops some kind of defensive cooldown.

I love my Warrior. Swifty is clearly becoming disenchanted with his, and trying to blame everything on Ret Paladins. Like the stalwart crusader he is, he's going to employ the time-tested, crybaby approved band-aid of 'don't want to work to beat them, going to join them'.

[TerryBogard]

But the difference between gaining 15 and 22 rage is not as big as it sounds.

It is an increase of generation 1.5 times the rage per white hit. That sounds pretty big to most statistics

[Abolishment]

It is an increase of generation 1.5 times the rage per white hit. That sounds pretty big to most statistics

It's an increase on damage done from normal hits only. When you factor in damage recieved, cooldowns used, procs/talents activated, and critical strikes, the amount of rage you get from non-critical white hits is less of a factor. Add in parries/misses/dodges/crits/procs/time spent actually in range, and take into account the length of the fight, we're talking about one or two more attacks.

Is it enough rage to get the job done, in its current incarnation? I believe so. The extra rage usually gets wasted on stance-dancing anyways. What's the difference between having 45 (three white swings with an i200 Blue Weapon, assuming no crits or background procs/abilities) and 66 (three white swings with a Furious weapon, according to Swifty's numbers, assuming no crits or background procs/abilities) rage when you're switching to Defensive Stance to Spell Reflect something?

People spam their abilities without regard to cost or efficiency. When they run out, they're starved, when they have too much, there's no reason to bother counting it as a mechanic.

That's like saying Mages who only DPS using Arcane Explosion are mana starved and need buffs because they can only spend 14 global cooldowns casting it before they're OOM.

There's a difference between an attack resource and a gobal-cooldown generator.

[Shimo]

Well, theres one thing I am afraid of if blizzard buffs warriors. Average players will be able to kill more enemies but the good ones will dominate too much which will lead to QQ posts.

Despite retri being ezmode, you can still see whos got a clue whos not and same thing will happen with warriors. I am just hoping that Blizzard doesnt fail as they did with retri paladin balance/design, if they decide to improve/revamp the warrior class.

[meliancill]

if swifty went into a pvp fight with low mid and high lvl gear. showed the diffrence in an ACTUAL pvp setting i would say he has a point. however he didnt. he goes to a target dummy hits it one time and shows no crits or anything that up's the rage he would get. in a pvp fight your criting hiting and being hit and crit wich all bring in rage. showing 1 out of 4 posible rage sorces and saying ( zomg we havs no ragez im gana reroll to an omg op class becaze they have manaz ) is retarted imo. if he is geting tired of his warrior then stop playing it. but dont make videos pushing his opinion and giving people false impresions of the class.

[Deleted]

@ Abolishment

What you fail to realise is that a lot of the points you have stated are things like low crit creating a lack of procs, low hit and expertise, lack of haste all apply to Warriors too. A Warrior not only has a pure dps gimp from having a miss (not having the attack land and therefore having no damage done and no procs) but it also affects Rage Generation, it's an additional gimp ontop of existing ones - yes, other classes are set back by having bad gear but no other class is set back in terms of resource generation as much which is the point Swifty is trying to make.