Why don't we get awesome raids anymore?!

[Azyoulike]

ToC is a huge disappointment, particularly making us wait so long for the heroic mode. Blizzard clearly didn't have time to produce something better, and I guess the underlying cause is arena - the need to produce new content to match arena seasons means that we will, in mid expansion, get something underwhelming.

They should at least have given us a truly epic coliseum, what we got is more a back water amphitheatre. The Colosseum in Rome could be flooded for boat based combat and simulated sea battles, it had numerous trapdoors that allowed both animals and scenary to be introduced.

The Argent guys have both magic & goblins, but they still ended up producing something which the romans would have considered terribly old fashioned and dull.

Ulduar was an awesome raid, we still get them, but I guess we can only hope for every other raid to be awesome from now on - Blizz just don't have time to produce them for every season.

[Ninjarobot44]

Though I disagree with the way Blizzard set up the release of the Colosseum, it is not "filler content". The purpose of the Argent Tournament is to gather the best fighters from both factions to form an army to attack ICC. Plain and simple.

[veemon_ro]

It is only a "debate" in the way that you refuse to count:

Malygos, 1 boss in a unique Instance
Sarth, 1 boss in a unique Instance
Naxx, 15 bosses
Ulduar, 14 bosses
Coliseeum, 5 bosses

So I count 36 bosses in 5 Instances.

Yes..I know your "argument" that Naxx is a re- use...and you know my "argument" that it is new for 99% of the player base.

Again we can debate until we are blue in the face. It is just incredibly futile.

So now they need to add sunwell and bwl and aq cause its new to 99% of the players?
Im sorry but i dont see your point.

Adding reused content is alot easyer and cheaper then to make new one. And no im not happy with the instance who has the same graphics as it did 5 years ago.

In fact compare the visual apealing of nax to ulduar and youll see the huge difference. So yes instead of nax id of liked something NEW and original tyvm.

But find lets say 36 bosses in 5 instances...if you can actually call them bosses.

In tbc you had

Karazhan - (Atunmen, animal boss, moroes, ophera event (3 bosses) , nightbane, curator, netherspite, prince, the satyr wich i forgot his name, shade of aran, chess event)-14 bosses
Gruul - 2 bosses
Magtheridon - 1 boss
Ssc - (lurker, hydross, morogrim , leotheras, general, vashj)-6 bosses
Tk - (Alar, vr, solarian, kaelthas)-4 bosses
Za - Bear, hawk, dragon, lynx, hex lord , zuljin - 6 bosses
Mh- 5 bosses
Bt- (najentus, supremus, aran, gurtog, ros, gorefiend, mother, ilidari, ilidan)- 9 bosses

Now I won't count swp since thats the equivalent of Ice crown wich is not out. But to sumarise.

Wotlk 36 bosses in 5 instances (1 instance and 15 bosses beeing reused)
Vs
TBC 47 bosses in 8 instances.

So no, sorry TBC beats wotlk in quantity by far.

Now lets see the quality? Well you can't really mesure it since people might say swp was awesome other might say it was bad.
But you could defenetly NOT of been able to skip through ssc/tk and jump straight into BT with kara gear wich you can easily do in wotlk.
The easy progression path allowed people to learn their class (instances would start easy with bosses like lurker wich was face roll then would start to go progresively harder. hydross being more chalanging then leotheras beeing even more demanding). Vs wotlk where bosses go from facerollingly easy, to incredibly hard when you activate the hard mode.

But all in all you can clearely see that there was alot more work and effort put into TBC rather then wotlk when it comes to raiding content

[Skallfraktur]

Imo, something that plays a VERY big part in making instances etc not feeling that epic, is that blizzard puts ALL the freaking bosses out on the testrealm. I understand that due to the more komplex mechanics in fights nowadays compared to vanilla makes more room for bugs and misstakes, but PLEASE, can't blizzard just find some ppl who can do all the testing without releasing it all on the testrealms?:S All bosses have already been killed several times before you even set foot in the instance on live realms. They didn't put Yogg'Saron or Algalon on the PTR but they turned out great..

[PBitt]

The debate was that the "filler raid coliseum" is instead of what we got in tbc as Mh/Ssc/Tk/Za.
So instead of 4 instances you get just 1

Wotlk is also looking like it is going to be a lot shorter, doubt it will be two years since it's release before Cataclysm will be out. ICC will be the last raid, so it can't be too long. ZA and Sunwell were both 'oh shit!' content raids. All the other stuff there was released rather quickly. Additionally, Ulduar is the 'equivalent' raid to SSC/TK. Naxx/maly/sarth would be 'equivalent' to kara/gruuls/mags. In your arguement then in terms of release, ToC would be hyjal. The same amount of bosses. Hmm. There were 9 bosses in BT, and 12 in ICC. Again, do not bring up ZA and Sunwell, both were awesome instances but were not necessarily meant to be put in play when TBC was released. Illidan was supposed to be the last boss but he was available to pwn too quickly. Additionally, you also can argue that there are 10 and 25 man versions, hardmode versions, optional bosses (Algalon), the new heroic raids, and even VoA and Onyxia revamped if you want to really include everything.

[Gron]

I think its bad to compare the "epicness" of raids with number of bosses. It has nothing common.

Especially when:

Malygos, 1 boss in a unique Instance
Sarth, 1 boss in a unique Instance
Naxx, 15 bosses
Coliseeum, 5 bosses

Can be done in 2-2.5 hrs, it is a real big letdown. Do Naxx in 1hrs 20 minutes. Just like a larger 5-man back in BC. It feels so cheap, boring, makes me think we will just walk up to Arthas and kick his helmet off his face, while pushing him off the throne with our warlock's imps, while we just laugh at him for running away.

Epicness is raids has gotten downhill, devs didn't even try to do great stuff with Colisseum. Anubarak who has been killed at level 72 is back - makes me afraid what bossess they will "resurrect" in IC... maybe the fearsome Kel Thuzad?

I think epic raids carry the great feeling of downing a boss, and that contradict's Blizzard new mantra of making easy raids to gear up people at start (Naxxramas), then creating easy raid for Colisseum to gear up people for Icecrown. I guess most devs that were working on awesome encounters have been sent to polish off Starcraft II and Diablo III.

[Sanguissa]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtqioyAj3K0

[Phyta]

BWL was pretty epic, honestly the nefarion fight was my personal fav. Just having to bite your nails in suspense as to what color chromatic dragons you were going to get, and then trying to burn them down before they overran the entire place.

[Elanale]

Fun fact: threads of this kind have never changed anyone's opinion about anything in the history of forums. Never. Ever ever.

People who like the fact that Blizzard now creates content for most of its players will not be swayed by your cries, in fact will likely laugh at them.

People who wish Blizzard would go back to creating content for only the top 2% of all players will not be swayed just because someone says that it was both terrible business sense and pretty terrible game design.

People like myself who sit somewhere in the middle and hope the new Heroic versions will be dreadful cockblocks that hold the elitists down for six months until they beg for nerfs while providing non-heroic versions that my twelve year old brother could clear with his friends won't be swayed either.

Blizzard certainly won't be swayed. The only criticism they've taken to heart from Wrath is that there should be more entry level raids at release, which is why Cataclysm has more than any previous expac.

These threads are a waste of time and effort, as was this post, but like you I love to hear myself talk.

[Gron]

Elanale,

You might be right.

The only criticism they've taken to heart from Wrath is that there should be more entry level raids at release, which is why Cataclysm has more than any previous expac.

At least this sounds promising. They also added heroic version dungeon (hardmodes) which is sort of at least implies "listening" to customers.

Its not needed that they create content for the top 2% of guilds (infact lots of hardmodes are cleared, at least on our server).

But its also not needed that they create the content for the bottom 2% of the guilds (which it seems like from the Colisseum normal modes). That also makes people unhappy.

[veemon_ro]

Elanale,

You might be right.

At least this sounds promising. They also added heroic version dungeon (hardmodes) which is sort of at least implies "listening" to customers.

Its not needed that they create content for the top 2% of guilds (infact lots of hardmodes are cleared, at least on our server).

But its also not needed that they create the content for the bottom 2% of the guilds (which it seems like from the Colisseum normal modes). That also makes people unhappy.

You couldn't of said it better.
Also I was unaware only 2% of the raiding guilds were doing MH and BT in the past wich were far better then ssc.

You should realise that there is only going to be a player thats worse then you and he diserves to see the content too by your logic. That means the content needs to be made even easyer for him to be able to play as well.

Where exactly do you draw the line?