AOE Threat, and the flavor of a Warrior

[Barlos]

I'm pretty new to the MMO-Champion community. That said, I'd like to get some thoughts on this completely made-up ability that I've been thinking of. There's no realistic way that this idea will ever come into view of a Blizzard developer, but it's nice to play pretend like a kid again sometimes.

AOE Threat

At this point, Warrior AOE threat is not a huge problem. There aren't many fights that come to mind where our lack of sustained AOE TPS (notice I said sustained, not burst..) in comparison to Paladins, DKs, and even Druids causes us problems. The thing is, all of this can be remedied by a Rogue using Tricks of the Trade+FOK. That's how we tank 0L, pretty much. Without 1 Rogue constantly tricksing you on 25m 0L, it can be quite the hassle to tank. The only other time where we really need this is trash that we AOE down. Some of you may say "have DPS that can wait" - but in the fast-paced progression of today with extremely high DPS requirements, there are times where the DPS must go all out right away. It's your and the Rogues' fault if someone pulls. It's not like this in trash, but it would be extremely nice to know what it feels like to be able to hold an AOE pack without tricks of the trade with DPS going all out right away.

In my opinion, AOE tanking as a Warrior in it's current state isn't very fun, and with Cataclysm they're trying to bring fun back into the talent trees. Now, the suggestion I'm about to present doesn't come from my inability to AOE tank (although it will inevitably be said), but it comes from my experience that at the most simplistic of levels, all we do in AOE tanking situations is tab target and use thunderclap/shockwave whenever they're up. In an expansion where most classes have some sort of set rotation for every situation, including AOE, we're one of the few left behind. Druids have been, as well. They spam swipe and maul.

Boooooring.


Flavor

It's been brought up many times that we should have a "dot effect" on the ground, like consecrate. At one point I agreed, but many cite "flavor" of our class as being the reason. Well, what is our flavor? Blizzard wants us to be a little primal, they love shouts, bleeds are a huge part of our class, and they like us having AOE threat moves on cooldowns. That's what I'm gathering, anyways. If they were going in a different direction for AOE tanking, I certainly missed it. So, having discerned this, we could come up with a solution to make AOE tanking more fun without us relying on Rogues, but still keeping a very Warrior-ish feel to it.

So, I came up with "Deafening Shout", and a couple of talents that improve it. It would only be usable in Defensive Stance, and untalented wouldn't be quite the threat move as it is talented. This is all completely made-up and at best a pipe-dream, but it's fun to talk about!

Deafening Shout - 20 Rage - 15 yards - 10 second cooldown

You let forth a Deafening Shout, rupturing the eardrums of nearby enemies. Inflicts 150 physical damage initially, and another 100 bleed damage every second for 7 seconds. Damage increased by attack power. This ability causes additional threat.

Now, ignore the damage. It would be increased by AP, and obviously Blizzard would have to tune that! This is basically just a new ability that you could use every 10 seconds. This alone does not create a semblance of an AOE rotation, but it's the makings of one. Without talents, it becomes a patch to tanking as DPS spec - you now have an AOE threat move to replace Shockwave. The two talents I "dreamed" up would create a sort of rotation for us Prot Warriors:

Improved Deafening Shout

Increases the initial damage of your Deafening Shout by 100% on targets affected by Thunder Clap. Additionally, the bleed effect from Deafening Roar has a crit chance equal to your Dodge chance if used on an enemy hit by Shockwave within the last 3 seconds.

This talent allows us to keep our current AOE openers. Thunderclap to round them up/apply debuff, and then Shockwave. The wording also covers something important - "if used on an enemy hit by Shockwave within the last 3 seconds". This way, if the targets are not stunnable, we still benefit from using Shockwave before Deafening Shout. Deafening Shout would have a 10 second cooldown so that it would always coincide with Shockwave's CD if used whenever they're up after the first initial rotation. However, one more talent that would make something that we hardly use on trash packs, etc., because of lack of globals, viable in AOE tanking situations:

Improved Demoralizing Shout

Increases the melee attack power reduction of your Demoralizing Shout by 40%. Additionally, if Demoralizing Shout is used on a target affected by Deafening Shout, the bleed duration of Deafening Shout is increased by 3 seconds, up to a maximum of 3 seconds.

This means that for every application of Deafening Shout, we could use Demoralizing to extend the bleed duration all the way to the cooldown (10 seconds) of Deafening. Also, we get the AP reduction which would help our mitigation on AOE packs, which we will lose a lot of once block becomes a % based tanking stat, rather than blocking a set amount.

In the end, this is just me throwing out a pipe dream idea that would be a lot of fun, but probably isn't anything close to what Blizzard has in store for us in Cataclysm. All I hope is that they make some sort of AOE "rotation" for us. I believe to really balance us out in terms of AOE threat, we need a backloaded, non-spammable move that keeps the flavor of Warriors. That's what I tried to do here.

What do you think? And please, don't let this degenerate into an argument of who can tank Emalon adds and who can't. Ugh.

[Heikken]

We don't need this.

[Barlos]

We don't need this.

I disagree. But hey, 4 word sentences are convincing.

[Shelly]

It's not a bad idea but really I'd just like to see a return of Bloodbath and give warriors more bleed options. Really Deep Wounds should be made baseline.

Also you forgot cleaving as warriors tab target.

As well as warriors have one huge AoE threat move that no other tank has.

Charge.

I know, it sounds silly but here's what I mean. Charge puts warriors in the fight before anyone else. This means we get the initial line of sight aggro, then we get damage shield aggro, we get thunderclap aggro, then we get our shockwave aggro.

I know other tanks have it a lot easier, especially paladins, however if you're having trouble with aoe aggro try playing a little more loose on the stick and get your ass into the melee faster. You'll find yourself getting that extra time to build up your threat.

[Barlos]

It's not a bad idea but really I'd just like to see a return of Bloodbath and give warriors more bleed options. Really Deep Wounds should be made baseline.

Also you forgot cleaving as warriors tab target.

As well as warriors have one huge AoE threat move that no other tank has.

Charge.

I know, it sounds silly but here's what I mean. Charge puts warriors in the fight before anyone else. This means we get the initial line of sight aggro, then we get damage shield aggro, we get thunderclap aggro, then we get our shockwave aggro.

I know other tanks have it a lot easier, especially paladins, however if you're having trouble with aoe aggro try playing a little more loose on the stick and get your ass into the melee faster. You'll find yourself getting that extra time to build up your threat.

I have no problems AOE tanking, I said that in the post. But I also believe that only a small % of Warriors actually know how to hold AOE threat, and it seems a much larger percentage of DKs, Paladins, and Druids know how to hold AOE threat. As I joke about what I was told by a tank in one of our server's less progressed guilds a couple months ago, "We don't bring the adds together and AOE on razorscale because Warrior tanks can't tank and move at the same time". This was someone speaking to my Mage, not knowing I am a Warrior tank. I almost fell over from laughter.

My point is that it would be nice to bring Warriors up to the other tanks' levels for a lot reasons, not just the highest of progression levels where tricks used on a Warrior could be better used for the extremely high DPS requirements every progression fight requires nowadays. Running with bad Warrior tanks is a nightmare without a Rogue around, and I consider that a problem with our class design not keeping up with the design of the DPS classes.

[Craigadiddle]

one problem is

thunderclap is only initial aggro, and has a cooldown.
swipe does not have a cooldown


shockwave is now the only aoe where u need to position yourself

paladin and death knight aoe is a damage over time aoe, its better than thunderclap.

Anyway, i think they either need to remove the CD on thunderclap, or something else.

[Lightfist]

Okie, warriors get a constant AOE threat generator...annnd I demand Paladins get more than one interrupt every 30 seconds (after 2.2) with 4 talent points speced into it =/

[nekobaka]

did you forget thunderclap is a highly wanted debuff in a raid that keeps you alive and mages doing more pew pew

[Lightfist]

did you forget thunderclap is a highly wanted debuff in a raid that keeps you alive and mages doing more pew pew

Shhh! Don't dissuade them! I want muh interrupts!

[Darko]

I know other tanks have it a lot easier, especially paladins, however if you're having trouble with aoe aggro try playing a little more loose on the stick and get your ass into the melee faster.

You seem to overlook the fact that the aoe abilities of different tanks are, surprise-surprise, different.

Warrior can Shockwave/TC to generate a high and INSTANT amount of threat on targets in the area and debuff them as well (hopefully stun too!). New mobs won't be picked up and SW cooldown is quite long. Thunderclap is reasonably low with 6 seconds. Quick snap aggro like Freya trash is a nice place to ask your warrior to tank it.

Paladin has relatively slow paced but continuous, 100% uptime consecration around the player. Longer stationary fights spring to mind, like Thorim phase 1.

DK has a decent threat generating BB which can be placed anywhere, but is not as easy to maintain as the 30 second cooldown without anything else to spread diseases off (wave 1 killed in 15 second, wave 2 spawning in 5). Sartharion 3d is a shining example. No matter the timing and location of fire waves, the hatched adds will be picked up

Druid has a no-cooldown spammage swipe limited only by rage. Slightly lower threat generation (also modified by armour, unlike consecration which is magic) but provides druid with mobility and continuous aggro by allowing him to run around picking things up while spamming swipe. Somehow falls in-between the 3 others but typically very good option for gauntlets like Loatheb and Heigan trash and similar.

So, if trying to classify your proposed warrior ability, it clearly shows it would be dipping into other class' little uniqueness.

Of course, Blizzard made sure anything will still be doable even in a limited environment - be it due to a lack of player skill/knowledge, poor raid leader decisions or simply raid composition. Raid composition is often limited by factors without simple solution (no signups, small guild, pug..) but I hope my post will help iremove 1 and 2 from the picture.

[Darko]

Meant to say Death and Decay for DK

[Xianth]

I think the only minor problem with our aoe threat, is that at the start you have have a conflict with shockwave and shield block (ie. damage shield). If you shockwave for massive upfront threat to lock the mobs on, you stun then for 4 second so they're not hitting your damage shield (and giving you easy rage for cleaves), but if you shield block and wait for the 10 second you only really have a tclap of solid upfront threat which means you run the risk on losing threat, especially on targets which arnt hit by cleave and don't have their attacks blocked.

Even paladins have some problems though, put a conc down then have to mobs out of that spot you only have hammer for snap threat on 3/4 targets, the rest of the threat depends on you blocking or being hit to generate. Of course, if a paladin has the mobs on him after one rotation of abilties they will stick like glue, but it's that initial clunkyness which gives a warrior a certain advantage when quickly grabbing multiple targets in a non-stationary situation.

[Painica]

Maybe have ThunderClap have a % chance(more points put in talent tree higher percentage) 10/20/30 % of causing Aftershock (mini earthquake), causing slight Dot to affected mobs.

I personally don't have much trouble with Aoe aggro. But i have always thought that having a slight Dot with Thunderclap wouldn't hurt us any.

[Abolishment]

Okie, warriors get a constant AOE threat generator...annnd I demand Paladins get more than one interrupt every 30 seconds (after 2.2) with 4 talent points speced into it =/

See? This is why there is flavor in the game. Depending on the situation, -most- tanks have something neat to outshine the others. Kel'thuzad's interruptable 10k Frostbolts? Warriors and Death Knights can either interrupt those on a very short cooldown, or Absorb/negate/reflect the damage entirely. Paladins and Druids cannot claim the same thing, as their interrupt is on a 30-second cooldown, after spending talents on it (2 points for Druids, 4 for Paladins).

If Warriors are having problems with AoE threat, maybe the answer is to tweak Thunderclap in either damage, threat, secondary effects, or cooldown reduction.

Just please don't assume because another tank excels where you merely survive, that it is means for an overhaul.

Also, on the subject of flavor, flavor has two meanings here.
1- Warriors will not fly around with eye-lazers and psychically choke their opponents. They will stick to abilities that make sense for a plate-wearing master of physical combat to have.
2- Warriors will not become carbon-copy recolors of any other tank class, and three tank classes sharing a trait will not necessarily mean the fourth class should be given said trait by association.

Both are important. Some will argue the second point, depending on the weight that they give to the situation at hand, usually to try and justify a situational buff to their class.

However, those doors swing both ways.

Let's set up a hypothetical situation.

Let's pretend that there are two equally geared tanks, one a Druid, the other a Warrior, both single-tanking their own Naxx 10 at the exact same time with the exact same theoretical teams (minus the tanks).
The teams are comprised of 7 Moonkin DPS, 2 Priest Healers, and the tanks in question.
Despite both teams successfully making the best of a terrible raid setup, the healing meters are called into question.

Team 1, being tanked by the Druid, showed substantially more damage taken. Without the ability to reflect and interrupt the 10,000 damage Frostbolts, the Priests in Team 1 used more mana trying to keep the tank alive. Of course, effective health differences still meant that the Druid was only slightly closer to death than the Warrior was at any given time, but the meters, in their raw, anecdotal evidence, suggest that Warriors have an amazingly easier time tanking Kel'thuzad.

Does that justify giving Druids a spell reflect, or a passive amount of damage reduced from all incoming spells? Sure, it would bring the meters closer together for that one fight, but it would certainly have long-term ramifications that would eventually need to be re-tuned if and when Druids ever became the most attractive main tank.

Instead, we should look at the situation as a single encounter that could have the outcome drastically altered by something so little as bringing a different raid setup. Replace one Moonkin with a Death Knight- suddenly the meters are much closer together.

did you forget thunderclap is a highly wanted debuff in a raid that keeps you alive and mages doing more pew pew

All four tank classes have the attack speed debuff available in some way. Not all are AoE, but they are there.
Death Knight's Frost Fever reduces attack speed by 14%, and can be talented up to 20%.
Druids can get Infected Wounds, which next patch will be one application for the full 20% debuff.
Paladins have Judgements of the Just, which places the 20% attack speed reduction on a target they Judge.

[belfpala]

You seem to overlook the fact that the aoe abilities of different tanks are, surprise-surprise, different. [. . .]

Great post.

From my personal experience, a skilled tank leading a skilled group (raids or otherwise) will never have AoE problems in Wrath.

There are situations where I, typically playing Ret paladin, will pick up adds by accident. Sarth+3 is a great example. Can hardly help picking up a few elementals or whelps, as Consecration and Divine Storm are fundamental parts of my rotation and the fight is essentially a matter of burn. Thus, the skill of my raid matters. The elementals and whelps are weak enough that a ret paladin can tank them, even in 25 man versions. When they enrage, they can be dealth with by other classes. (EDIT: This is a constant, regardless of the class of the OT).

In many other fights, it's a matter of knowing my tank's capabilities. I know my warrior tank, for example, might not have any threat on some new adds instantly. That's fine. I can take 2-3 steps sideways before I DS. I might miss an autoattack, but it's better than being one-shot by a nasty add. (EDIT: This isn't exclusively a warrior problem either. I can generate ridiculous threat right away on new adds just by doing my ret rotation. Every tank suffers).

My point is that the "flavor" effects more than just the tanking class. It effects the entire raid. They can make very slight adjustments to allow the tank to do his job, regardless of the class.

I think the only minor problem with our aoe threat, is that at the start you have have a conflict with shockwave and shield block (ie. damage shield). If you shockwave for massive upfront threat to lock the mobs on, you stun then for 4 second so they're not hitting your damage shield...

The solution is pull (heroic throw?), reverse, charge, reverse, shockwave, thunderclap, build threat on primary target. trust raid to target off you or trust the marks. Trust raid to know how you do it, so they give you the 4 seconds it takes.

Paladins have similar problems. Pull with Avenger's Shields, slowed mobs take forever to get there, drop consecration to pick up the remainder, hope your primary target isn't pulled off you by the time it gets there, then apply snap aggro to get ahead.

[Melonberry]

This has been suggested for Druids too. Did you know Thunderclap is a lot nicer than spamming swipe? It also does about the same threat.
Everyone has aoe problems...I'd love to see something like this (at least the talents working together) for every tank.

[Shelly]

You seem to overlook the fact that the aoe abilities of different tanks are, surprise-surprise, different.

So, if trying to classify your proposed warrior ability, it clearly shows it would be dipping into other class' little uniqueness.

I really have no idea why you quoted me but as near as I can tell your reading comprehension stinks.

Of course how they handle AoE threat is much different. Warriors and Druids are proactive about AoE threat, this is because they are the only two tanks who can continuously charge into battle.

Paladins are reactive, much of their threat comes from holy shield and they have to stay put for consecrate.

DKs fall somewhere in the middle since they can apply D&D from a distance as well as have excellent large mob threat in pestilence, good small party threat in heart strike (if blood) and great AoE threat if they go frost or unholy.

And yes, warriors are very much about that snap aggro. That's why charge is so important, it gets you there before your mages get into range to start popping living bombs, before your hunters can volley, before your rogues are close enough for slice and dice spam. The only dps that can really muck things up is an arms warrior who decides they wanted to hit bladestorm after running in with you.

Anyway, Bloodbath was an ability that was given to warriors in beta for LK. Essentially it was an AoE rend, I believe they decided that removing the target limitations from TC and introducing damage shield would make up for it. I rather wish we could have kept it though as it would have given warriors a nicer steady threat generator than just hoping for a DW proc from TC.

I can kind of see why they scrapped it though, it would have been a bit crazy in PvP (imagine a BG stacked with warriors where they essentially all lay down a consecrate that you can't run out of.)

Bloodbath was fun and I really do wish it could have stayed.

[Xenryusho]

1- Warriors will not fly around with eye-lazers and psychically choke their opponents. They will stick to abilities that make sense for a plate-wearing master of physical combat to have.

Why the hell not, game files says illidan's a warrior. I mean he's using glaives and he's not a rogue.

Imo give us Eye beam for AoE threat.

[Barlos]

I really have no idea why you quoted me but as near as I can tell your reading comprehension stinks.

Of course how they handle AoE threat is much different. Warriors and Druids are proactive about AoE threat, this is because they are the only two tanks who can continuously charge into battle.

Paladins are reactive, much of their threat comes from holy shield and they have to stay put for consecrate.

DKs fall somewhere in the middle since they can apply D&D from a distance as well as have excellent large mob threat in pestilence, good small party threat in heart strike (if blood) and great AoE threat if they go frost or unholy.

And yes, warriors are very much about that snap aggro. That's why charge is so important, it gets you there before your mages get into range to start popping living bombs, before your hunters can volley, before your rogues are close enough for slice and dice spam. The only dps that can really muck things up is an arms warrior who decides they wanted to hit bladestorm after running in with you.

Anyway, Bloodbath was an ability that was given to warriors in beta for LK. Essentially it was an AoE rend, I believe they decided that removing the target limitations from TC and introducing damage shield would make up for it. I rather wish we could have kept it though as it would have given warriors a nicer steady threat generator than just hoping for a DW proc from TC.

I can kind of see why they scrapped it though, it would have been a bit crazy in PvP (imagine a BG stacked with warriors where they essentially all lay down a consecrate that you can't run out of.)

Bloodbath was fun and I really do wish it could have stayed.

A lot of the inspiration came from Bloodbath. The difference I tried to go for was intertwining a new ability with all of our current moves. It's better if tclap is on the target, if they were hit by shockwave recently, and using demo shout after it is used increases the duration to 10 seconds. It gives us a rotation. That would be pretty fun, which was a good portion of the reason I thought of this in the first place! I play a Warrior tank because I can't see how you have more fun on another tank. Charge, Intervene, Intercept, Gag Order, Stuns - it's just a really fun class to play. I just think the only thing that feels clunky and left behind in design is our AOE tanking. Having a sort of rotation and a reason to Demoralizing Shout (if it interacted/buffed one of our other AOE abilities) would fill in the gaps for our AOE tanking.

[Xianth]

Trust raid to know how you do it, so they give you the 4 seconds it takes.

Yeh, that's why it's only a minor issue