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  1. #1

    Secondary resource for retribution. Would it solve its problems?

    I was just thinking how would it be to implement a secondary resource for retribution and how would it look like. My thoughts were about a resource similar to rage/runic power but still with a different feel to it. It would be called......yea u guest it "ZEAL"!!! I know it's not original but still it's very paladinish so it doesn't have any love-wise contradictions. I was thinking about "FAITH" as a resource but that sounded too much priest-like.

    Anyways about it's mehanics: It would be a base scale ranging from 0-100 and it would start at 0 just like rage and RP. It could have some talents that would increase it's max amount just like RP and Energy for rogues. Magical attacks such as exorcism, consecration, holy shock and some other that might be implemented in cataclysm would still use mana but would generate Zeal for a fixed amount. Zeal would be also generated by autoattacks and partialy special physical attacks would give a small zeal refund if they managed to land on paladins target(just like rage oriented attacks).Auto attack Zeal gain would only depend on weapon base speed and not the damage dealt. In that way it is much easier to balance it for all levels of gear. Paladin would not gain Zeal when being hit. Attacks such as Crusader strike, Divine storm,Avengers Shield, SOR, HOR and abilities like Avenging Wrath would use Zeal as a resource. All other spells would still use mana, but with the introduction of secondary resource judgements of the wise would have to be scaled down since the new resource puts down the strain from paladins mana hungry dps rotation. Judgements would also generate zeal by default and would have no cost(just like warriors charge). Some hand spells might have some talent options to use Zeal instead of Mana but it that way they would become physical buffs. Also with the new resource introduction some physical attack cooldowns would have to be reconsidered and maybe Crusader strkie could be turned in to something more interesting(yea i said it....so clishe i know). Many other thing would have to be considered but i got tired of typing for now so i would like to hear your thoughts about it.

    I never said Ret was "broken", it's just that i think it's not perfect. The problems i see with the ret are an uninteresting PvE rotation wich is FCFS oriented and requires almost no knowlege of the class meaning that someone who never played paladin could do almost the same dps like someone who has been playing it for years.

    I am not beeing an elitist and calling people ZOMGNOOBZ and ZOMGPROZ but i just find it frustraiting that i am doing around 5.2k dps in raid and the guy that clearly has no clue about paladin class and seems semi retarded can do 5k dps. Ret NEEDS some synergy between its attacks and i thought that introducing the secondary resource that would work in a similar way other melee classes resources do would alow that kind of newly intoduced synergy. Ret needs more Attacks but with having mana and cooldown based non spamable attacks i doubt it can ever be done without having some other resource other than mana. SO to summ it up i don't think ret is broken i just think that mana resource makes it much harder to balance it's offensive utility and i feel it is holding the class development back.

    I never said mana has to go, holy still needs to heal, i just said having a secondary resource which would be used for most offensive abilities and maybe some hands spells could be benefitial to the class.

    On the other hand there is a question of the increased complexity that would appear if we consider PvP. Would having a real situation oriented DPS rotation with more procs and bigger attack diversity like other classes AND having a really big toolbox of the support spells, like you have now, that you would need to use to max out your PvP performanse be overpowered or just too hard to use?

    I don't want ret to have other classes abilities i just want it to stop being a one trick pony with it's offensive toolbox. I just hope you realise this is not a post about class being broken, it's just a post about improving a class in the way of making it a bit less newbie friendly and giving it some more choices in it's offensive arsenal. And by doing that without a secondary, faster expendable and faster rejuvenable resource that you would have to watch for it would be just a spam-whatever-is-not-on-CD fest like it is right now. So in the end the entire point of the secondary resource would be to make class a bit more interesting and a bit more difficut to manage with a chance to differentiation of good and not-as-good players and not just to make it more flashy, cool, faceroll and what not.

    Please be so kind to ignore my dreadful spelling and grammar since english is my third language and i am feeling a bit sleepy as i am writing this post.

  2. #2

    Re: Secondary resource for retribution. Would it solve it's problems?

    cus rets don't already have a blue rage bar mirite.

  3. #3

    Re: Secondary resource for retribution. Would it solve it's problems?

    Aiiiloveit. Moar rets to spam Exorcism on you desperate to gain enough "zeal" to perform "ZOMGLOLSTORM1!1!11one".
    Lolcat approves.
    "WITH RET IN WOTLK, BLIZZARD COMMITTED THE CARDINAL SIN OF MMORGS: THEY BASICALLY PRODUCED A TANK MAGE" ©

  4. #4

    Re: Secondary resource for retribution. Would it solve it's problems?

    TLDR

    Please use paragraphs.

    In response to what I can only guess was your point, ret is far from broken or needing a buff... gtfo.

  5. #5

    Re: Secondary resource for retribution. Would it solve it's problems?

    I doubt they would add a second resource which only one spec uses. Even if they did the one you have suggested has little or no benefit compared to the one. What they need is a change in spells and talents so it isn't just a case of hitting which ever button is on cooldown
    >:7

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  6. #6

    Re: Secondary resource for retribution. Would it solve it's problems?

    Too much of a rehaul. Also, you misused "it's".

  7. #7
    Immortal Ronark's Avatar
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    Re: Secondary resource for retribution. Would it solve it's problems?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dergul
    What would this solve? are retadins broken? hardly.. Uninteresting? I really don't think so.. So you wanna implement a new system to fix something that is not broken and make it more alike some other class?

    I'm confused
    "Uninteresting" would be the word to describve the class when DPSing.

    More or less, a new resource or MS effect is not what we need- Having more abilities or more things to watch for, could help with the boring and facerolling of Ret- having to set up your attacks in PvP reduces the number of "bad" paladins, and in PvE you could yield higher dps. That and an interrupt :X

  8. #8
    The Lightbringer Prentice's Avatar
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    Re: Secondary resource for retribution. Would it solve it's problems?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuronv
    I doubt they would add a second resource which only one spec uses. Even if they did the one you have suggested has little or no benefit compared to the one. What they need is a change in spells and talents so it isn't just a case of hitting which ever button is on cooldown
    If you reread the wall of text, he directly referenced Ret and Prot abilities that would use Zeal. A few of the abilities are usable by Holy too.

    Aside from a small amount of "coolness", I don't care for this concept. No class currently has 3 bars for their own character(health, mana, "zeal"). DK's do have to manage runes, but that's a lil' bit different.

    You see it all the time in the signatures of Ret pallys. They say something like "My rage bar is blue" or "I'm just like a warrior but I begin every fight pissed off". Our resource system has some flaws, namely attacks versus shielded mobs, but it works so much better than any system before. I'll keep what I have at the moment and be happy that our system is nowhere near as bad as warriors.

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  9. #9

    Re: Secondary resource for retribution. Would it solve it's problems?

    I wasn't really into the game itself but back when warhammer online released i loved playing the warrior priest. Hes basically a paladin, he does melee strikes using an energy like resource which gives righteous fury power which can then be used for heals and debuffs/special skills.

    The only problem with this system is it would basically make all the current holy pallies who like the easy healing style to quit because while you can heal, you arent a main healer just a backup/utility guy which while I loved that part of the holy warrior lore, some people want to be able to just either dps/tank/heal with a holy flavor instead of having to try to do all 3.

  10. #10

    Re: Secondary resource for retribution. Would it solve it's problems?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marath
    TLDR

    Please use paragraphs.

    In response to what I can only guess was your point, ret is far from broken or needing a buff... gtfo.
    ^

  11. #11

    Re: Secondary resource for retribution. Would it solve it's problems?

    The non-holy paladin has recently gained a blue rage bar, which is bad. Mana is a finite energy source with limited ability to be regened in combat; it should eventually give out, and the fact that it is not doing that in current mechanics is an issue which leads to terrible outcomes. In one hand, you have the ability to dps and tank infinitely, in the other you're left with bland instant attacks and a 5k mana pool due to the possibility you might be effective at offhealing for more than 4 seconds.

    This being said, yes an alternative energy scource could be effective at balancing the paladin class, although it would actually take time away from their new hero class and give the illusion of favoritism therefor its unlikely. Some tweaking is definately needed but this would be seen as overkill.
    http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Lightning's+Blade&n=Hohenhe%C3%ADm
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  12. #12

    Re: Secondary resource for retribution. Would it solve it's problems?

    There is no reason why Blizz can't fix the current system. I can live with the fact that our mana pool is Jack shit, and we go from full to OOM in 4 heals, but with the only interrupt we have being on a 1 minute cooldown, we're relying on other classes for the tools that we should have already. Wasn't that Blizzards justification for the constant nerfs we've received in the last few months, to expand our tool box?

  13. #13

    Re: Secondary resource for retribution. Would it solve its problems?

    what problems?

  14. #14

    Re: Secondary resource for retribution. Would it solve its problems?

    I did not 'guest' it and I do not think it is a good idea. Why do they need this again?
    Quote Originally Posted by Vacashamanica View Post
    nop , I leave WoW 4 years ago. all should.

  15. #15
    Dreadlord Sellest's Avatar
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    Re: Secondary resource for retribution. Would it solve its problems?

    I like playing my ret and I don't see any problems I want to "fix"
    Only problem which is not related to ret but to people playing WoW are those who wants ret to know abilities of other classes. (namely mortal strike, hamstring and one guy was requesting stealth) just NO... really.

  16. #16

    Re: Secondary resource for retribution. Would it solve its problems?

    All classes that have a tree for (dedicated to) healing have mana.

    We can heal.

    We keep our mana.
    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    I [opinion] [cataclysm feature] and you should to. Anything who disagrees with me that [cataclysm feature] is [opinion] is a big [insult].
    I asked all of my friends and they all agreed with me that [cataclysm feature] is as [opinion] as it is possible to be.
    Blizzard are so [opinion], what [compliment/insult]s they all are!

    There, now we can stop posting new topics in the Cataclysm forum altogether.
    And if you disagree with me you're an [insult].

  17. #17
    Immortal Ronark's Avatar
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    Re: Secondary resource for retribution. Would it solve its problems?

    Quote Originally Posted by Copain
    All classes that have a tree for (dedicated to) healing have mana.

    We can heal.

    We keep our mana.
    I'd rather a 3rd baseline heal be added, that way the coefficients on HL and FoL can be a bit lower, meaning Prot and Ret can have larger mana pools >.>

  18. #18

    Re: Secondary resource for retribution. Would it solve it's problems?

    Quote Originally Posted by Prentice
    No class currently has 3 bars for their own character(health, mana, "zeal"). DK's do have to manage runes, but that's a lil' bit different.
    Druids have health, mana and rage/energy when in bear and cat forms

  19. #19

    Re: Secondary resource for retribution. Would it solve its problems?

    Reading the OP was kinda like eating a bowl of ice cream only to discover halfway through it that the rest just kinda suddenly disappeared. It's an incomplete idea, but not totally without promise. Finish the post.
    Actually, Mr. Lennon, I CAN imagine a world with no hatred, religion, war, or violence.
    I can also imagine attacking such a world, because they would never see it coming.

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  20. #20

    Re: Secondary resource for retribution. Would it solve its problems?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronark
    I'd rather a 3rd baseline heal be added, that way the coefficients on HL and FoL can be a bit lower, meaning Prot and Ret can have larger mana pools >.>
    It's true, because prot has serious mana issues...

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