Twin Valkyrs 25 Heroic... Shields?

[Knuffelbert]

Hi there,

My guild is currently wiping on the Twins in TotGC25. Our tactic is relatively solid, sometimes getting them down to 30% before to many die. We operate under the assumption that the shield is "neutral", meaning nobody switches essences and the shield is always very, very close to finishing (usually within a second). In one try a couple orbs went into the melee camp and killed 6 or 7 of them and one twin starts healing, the one assigned to casters and we successfully (albeit very close again) destroyed it. Now I was wondering how it is possible to kill the shield with so many DPSers dead and considering that it is always very close even with all of them alive (no blood lust, no empowered light). Did the shield get fixed? Are we operating under a false assumption? Any other hints are appreciated. Anyway, wont solve the problem because we die to orbs to often, but might be helpful to know

[Kalx]

not changing for the shields on reg is the usual way, but on heroic is almost mandatory, not recommended.
I guess you should switch essences and do a better job avoiding the orbs, will work much better and the shield will surely go down.

of course, there's RNG, and a shitton of the opposite orbs could swarm the raid... but then again, even being hard, it's not impossible

also, tell all your raiders to go play ikaruga, they will learn to handle the orbs much better xD

[llDemonll]

it's called heroic for a reason. it requires people to play much better than normal, part of that is not dying.

you are complaining because you cant kill a shield with "6 or 7 people dead". i'm pretty sure you just answered your own question.

[Knuffelbert]

Did you even read what I was writing?

The assumption under which we operate is that the shields are neutral (i.e. the essence of the damage dealer is not considered when DPSing the shield). Thus no one is switching their essences as it is lost time if all the DDs want is to kill the shield and switch back to the original target.

"you are complaining because you cant kill a shield with "6 or 7 people dead". I'm pretty sure you just answered your own question."
I actually said that we DID kill the shield with 7 dead, which made me wonder whether this assumption is correct as the shield DPS (with our strat) is pretty tight.

Please read before writing, thank you.

"not changing for the shields on reg is the usual way, but on heroic is almost mandatory, not recommended." I'm not sure I understand it, switching essences is mandatory but not recommended? I'm not a native speaker but that sounds contradictory or am I missing something? If it's just a grammar issue and you are telling me that we have to switch essences I assume it's confirmed that the damage on the shield is based on which essence the damage dealer has?

While I was always wondering why the shields would be neutral, because it trivializes the encounter quite a bit, this is a common strategy because of this assumption in all groups attempting twins (talking about nonheroic, we belong to one of the two guilds who have access to this boss on the server on heroic) where this works fine though (it's only nonheroic after all)

[SuperCommander]

The shields are affected by the damage bonus/reduction just like the normal mob is. It is very easy to test, try with the correct essence and then the wrong one(Used Thunderclap for testing).

Right color essence gives you 150% dmg. Wrong(Same color) gives you only 50% dmg done. This translates into 3x as much damage with correct color.

EDIT: This also implies that you gain DPS from switching even if you only get 5seconds of DPS time with the right color.

[Knuffelbert]

The shields are affected by the damage bonus/reduction just like the normal mob is. It is very easy to test, try with the correct essence and then the wrong one(Used Thunderclap for testing).

Right color essence gives you 150% dmg. Wrong(Same color) gives you only 50% dmg done. This translates into 3x as much damage with correct color.

EDIT: This also implies that you gain DPS from switching even if you only get 5seconds of DPS time with the right color.

I know that the damage difference is huge between having the correct and incorrect essence and I have tested that. However how to test it if the shield is up (except forcing the whole raid "to try it", as I said, the assumption is that as long as the shield is active the essence does not matter (I think it would be quite strange to design the encounter like that, but this assumption is lodged into our raid leaders)? I only get "absorb" not how much (though combat log might have it(?) it scrolls to fast and I assumed it would only show absorb.). Is there an addon showing me how much is absorbed? Recount doesn't seem to give that.

[Sazabius]

also, tell all your raiders to go play ikaruga, they will learn to handle the orbs much better xD

<3

Another actual gamer playing WoW? I'm shocked. I have mentioned the Ikaruga thing so many times, not once has anyone got it. XD

[SuperCommander]

Yes it is quite tricky to see how much is absorbed. The combatlog however shows that information. A tip is to make a filter that only shows damage done by you. Also enable other filters such as no misses shown, only absorb etc and it becomes much easier to filter out what you want to know.

[Knuffelbert]

K, will try it next ID, no attempts left :/ . We have WWS, maybe that is shown there too...

[nubnub2009]

Look who has the highest dps.
Then check how many absorbs that person has.

If they have the least amount of absorbed hits, you know they fail and you can tell them to shape up or gtfo and stop padding dps meters.

Also keep a close eye on who pops their cooldown on shields and who pads meters by wasting them on the bosses.

Easy enough fix tbh.

[Deleted]

I know that the damage difference is huge between having the correct and incorrect essence and I have tested that. However how to test it if the shield is up (except forcing the whole raid "to try it")? I only get "absorb" not how much (though combat log might have it(?) it scrolls to fast and I assumed it would only show absorb.). Is there an addon showing me how much is absorbed? Recount doesn't seem to give that.

Use a combat-addon.
I'm currently using Parrot to show me the incoming damage, outcoming damage, heals, buffs, etc.
When playing with my DK on 25man (pretty bad gear, but whatever) it clearly showed me "Absorbed(10827)", etc.
Since my DK is NOT really geared, I've got no chance to reach a 10k Crit without any situational buffs. That means that the damage I did to the shield was greater than what I would have done to a neutral target.
---> Switch color.

[Moodada]

You would assume that the damage you deal is consistent when the shield is up and when it is down.

Also, it is not recommended to switch in Heroic mode twins, its Mandatory (Meaning that you shouldn't even think about not switching)

[nubnub2009]

And also, its not possible to have any addon that shows accurate absorbed damage.

[Deleted]

And also, its not possible to have any addon that shows accurate absorbed damage.

My parrot does o.O
I mean... it's like attacking someone who's having PW:S up... if my LvB hits for 13k and the shield absorbs 7k, I'll be notified that I did "6***(7*** absorbed)" damage.

[bigfoot1291]

Did you even read what I was writing?

The assumption under which we operate is that the shields are neutral (i.e. the essence of the damage dealer is not considered when DPSing the shield). Thus no one is switching their essences as it is lost time if all the DDs want is to kill the shield and switch back to the original target.

"you are complaining because you cant kill a shield with "6 or 7 people dead". I'm pretty sure you just answered your own question."
I actually said that we DID kill the shield with 7 dead, which made me wonder whether this assumption is correct as the shield DPS (with our strat) is pretty tight.

Please read before writing, thank you.

"not changing for the shields on reg is the usual way, but on heroic is almost mandatory, not recommended." I'm not sure I understand it, switching essences is mandatory but not recommended? I'm not a native speaker but that sounds contradictory or am I missing something? If it's just a grammar issue and you are telling me that we have to switch essences I assume it's confirmed that the damage on the shield is based on which essence the damage dealer has?

While I was always wondering why the shields would be neutral, because it trivializes the encounter quite a bit, this is a common strategy because of this assumption in all groups attempting twins (talking about nonheroic, we belong to one of the two guilds who have access to this boss on the server on heroic) where this works fine though (it's only nonheroic after all)

He meant it's not just recommended, it's required. The shields are the color of the twin that uses it, I believe.

[Gerian]

The shields are the color of the twin that uses it, I believe.

This is correct.

[Nubs]

He meant it's not just recommended, it's required. The shields are the color of the twin that uses it, I believe.

Is this a 25 man thing only? Because my 10 man never switches.

[nubnub2009]

My parrot does o.O
I mean... it's like attacking someone who's having PW:S up... if my LvB hits for 13k and the shield absorbs 7k, I'll be notified that I did "6***(7*** absorbed)" damage.

No it doesn't.

On the Twins shields combat log doesn't tell you anything on your damage, therefore no mod can tell you what dmg you have done on them.

If Parrot is telling you your total absorbed damage on Twin shields, then it is in "guess" mode and thus not accurate as i said.


The best way to check someone is dps'ing the shields properly is to see how many absorbed HITS they have on the shields, and visually check when they pop their cooldowns. That is what makes the fight a retard check. People who use everything they have outside of shield duration, to "pad" dps meters, are basically retards.

They are the same retards who post dps meters afterwards when they are on top at Twins, not realising that everyone else is laughing or being angry at them for being noobs.

He meant it's not just recommended, it's required. The shields are the color of the twin that uses it, I believe.

There is no way to check if switching colours will do more dmg to the shields for the same reason above. The only way to check if switching colours produces more dps on shields is to time how fast you kill the shield without switching compared to with switching.

[Dendrek]

It's not required that you switch.

Switching requires movement and a loss of dps uptime. Granted, the dps you gain from switching is a lot, but considering that the shield is only active for a short period of time and the act of switching may result in free-floating orbs hitting unintended targets, you may experience more of a loss switching essences for Twin's Pact than you would have by just popping cooldowns.

Of course everyone needs to get on the shield no matter what their essence, but a good strategy (if switching doesn't work) is to have half of your dps (melee) one essence and the other half (ranged) the other, and to pop CDs for the first shield, BL for the second, and CDs for the third. If you happen to get a 4th shield, chalk it up to bad luck (or burn the hell out of the unshielded one (this would be the 6th or later special, so they should already be very low) and hope you kill them before the heal goes off). With good dps, the twins should be dead after 5 or 6 special abilities.

In case anyone questions whether this strategy works, my guild killed Twins using it.

[Knuffelbert]

Well, I guess we can be proud of ourselves that the DPS is enough to kill the shield most of the time without anyone switching. However once a few die it becomes impossible and maybe the shorter duration of the shield would result in more people who can take care of orbs. Me as a warlock spends at most 3 seconds for changing essence two times (port at one portal, standing right next to another) and we need it. Maybe our DPSers slack a bit (including me :/) Considering that we got them to around 30% a couple times like this (often without BL) we might kill them eventually anyway with a couple gear upgrades and setup tweaks (and a lot of luck . Spending 47 tries this week on them is a bummer however.

Do you have no problems at all with that stra,t or is it "close", "difficult" or luck-dependent for you?