Gearscore ruining the game

[uglyloc]

sorry, had to log on to actually post since its been a while for me

raid leaders that use gearscore are retarded, but obvioulsy if i see a player in top end gear no enchants shitty gems, not gemmed properly not enchanted properly im probally gonna kick them over someone in a lower tier of gear but has their shit together, i would rater take people that know their shit but are undergeared rather than a group of complete fucking retards
/thread

[Tarantism]

in general, if you have top notch gear, you're probably going to be a pretty good player.

That may be true. If you have 258 gear from ToGC 25 (top notch gear), you are probably know what you are doing. but the fact is, when people use gear score, they aren't checking for Item level 258. They want to see if you have mostly ulduar to ToC gear, and the fact is, getting 226 or 245 epics doesn't require anything but time.

And another anecdote for you, my lock had the second worst gear in my former guilds main raid group (by gear score) but was normally 1-3 on damage done for a fight. (I left that guild because most of them were shitty players who were obsessed with their phat lewtz).

Sure, one persons experience is not statistically significant, but how many peoples personal experience need to say the same thing before it does become statistically significant?

In short, I expect anyone I see with truly "top notch" gear to be good; however, content that drops anything besides 258 or 239 (and heroic 10 man ToGC gear to an extent) is far too easy to be able to determine from a persons gear that they know how to play. That doesn't mean that all people with gear under preform, but a good amount do. (and in some cases they do a lot worse than just under preforming).

[Vongimi]

so what you guys are saying is if I have to choose between 2 tanks for a uld or ToC raid, one with a 4k gearscore and one wth a 2.5k gearscore, and the 4k hasn't done the instance and may not be the best while the 2.5k has on an alt and says he's an great tank I should take the 2.5k on the SOLE fact that he claims he has done the instance on his main and is a good tank (which btw, anyone who is undergeared for an instance ALWAYS says hey are good/pro) but doesn't offer to log on his main to prove it? screw that I don't mind quickly explaining fights if it means I get a better geared tank.

Tanks are more of an issue, you definitely want better geared tanks because no matter how much skill you have you are still gonna take a truckload of damage with bad gear. You dont dodge more because you are better at the game :P

But gearscore I never really see people base off of... I definitely dont even know any of my character's gearscores, and I could care less. I never look at people's gear scores when I run pugs.

[Tankyouverymuch]

In short, I expect anyone I see with truly "top notch" gear to be good; however, content that drops anything besides 258 or 239 (and heroic 10 man ToGC gear to an extent) is far too easy to be able to determine from a persons gear that they know how to play. That doesn't mean that all people with gear under preform, but a good amount do. (and in some cases they do a lot worse than just under preforming).

I think it's a pretty safe assumption to say that players fall along a bell curve, with most doing average damage and smaller percentages doing very poorly or very well. The problem with your logic here -- and you're not alone, so I don't mean to single you out -- is the assumption that is rampant throughout this thread that somehow that bell curve doesn't apply to poorly-geared players as well as well-geared players.

If you're going to play the odds, and you're an unsophisticated pug raid leader, then you fill your raid with well-geared players. Some will underperform, most will be run-of-the-mill, and a few will be monsters. If you ignore gear scores and just fill randomly, you're still going to encounter the bell curve, only the negative effects on the raid will become more pronounced - bad players in really bad gear are worse than bad players in really good gear, after all.

[Cronic420]

Pretty argumentative point with too many possible answers.

On one hand while having a high gear score does directly prove that you have taken the time to play and gear your character, it doesn't prove how. As stated previously grinding 213/226 from badges is pretty much idiot proof now, and the reason i actually speced ret on my paladin for the first time ever in 3 years. Because of this ive been able to get into geared toc10 runs as ret becasue i have the achievment for doing it holy or prot. But to be completely honest, i suck as ret, dps is just not my thing. Ive got something like a 4400+ GS REt and can only pull like 4k dps.

Gearscore in my opinion has only replaced Armory as a quick way to find out that a person can grind heroics. Overall, if you want to know how good a player is, do it the old fashion way and give him/her a chance, and if they suck /kick.

[Syonide]

having almost BiS for every slot.

I liked the part when you said you were almost in all BiS, but you haven't even broke 40k unbuffed. It made me giggle.

Anyways back on topic, the people who dislike gearscore are the people with bad gear who can't get into raids, or peoples who's guilds are too bad to do any kind of alt runs. My guild runs 2 25mans ToCs and Onys, 5 10man ToCs, 2 Heroic 10mans and one 25man Heroic. Now, were not uber leetskeet, last week we downed heroic 25man bests for the first time, however we have successfully carried many horribly geared alts thru content to the point where my main warrior is at 4.9 GS and my Druid who has been raiding for two weeks counting tuesdays raids is at 4757 GS. If for some reason you can't get into one of your servers better guilds because of your gear, start forming your own pugs, you can't be kicked from your own group.

In otherwords, don't harp on me because I don't feel like putting up with your shenanigans. Gearscore is a tool to derive a numerical value for the POTENTIAL of the player. Yes, obviously if they have great gear they can still be crap, but if you have crap gear you can still be garbage to. However,in the case of the person with 4.5k GS vs 3.5k GS, the person with 4.5k has a greater potential.

To sum it up, lol@thepallywhothinksheistoughshit, if you voted yes it's because you have bad gear, get into a good guild and win.

[Tarantism]

I think it's a pretty safe assumption to say that players fall along a bell curve, with most doing average damage and smaller percentages doing very poorly or very well. The problem with your logic here -- and you're not alone, so I don't mean to single you out -- is the assumption that is rampant throughout this thread that somehow that bell curve doesn't apply to poorly-geared players as well as well-geared players.

I am not ignoring the fact that the poorly geared players aren't on the bell curve as well. I just think that the decrease in probability of being a good player from an ulduar geared player to a player in naxx 10 gear is very small. (I would have to argue that the bell curve we are dealing with is strongly skewed right)

Don't get me wrong I am not saying that gear score is completely useless and that it is total trash. I am saying too much emphasis is placed on the number.

The first issue with gear score is that many people far over inflate the numbers you need to run a given instance. The standard requirement for onyxia on my server require is 4.5k (and sometimes higher). I know well enough that you don't need that high a score to face roll your way through there.

The second issue with gear score is that many raid leaders are, quite honestly, extremely stupid and don't know how to interpret the numbers they are seeing. My rogue in furious and relentless gladiators gear has a much higher gear score than my lock in his ulduar gear. That doesn't at all mean that my rogue will out dps my lock. I guess I should be thankful I am not getting stuck with those groups though.

I believe that gear score should be used to determine that you are geared enough for an instance assuming you are an average to slightly below average player, not to determine the likelihood that you are a good player.

[DocQuantum]

I chopped three things from your post; hopefully I didn't lose context.

the people who dislike gearscore are the people with bad gear who can't get into raids, or peoples who's guilds are too bad to do any kind of alt runs.

Wrong.

I don't like gearscore.

I'm sitting at 4980-something right now. I know that's not the best gear out there (it's definitely nowhere near BiS)... but it's not "bad gear," and I have no trouble getting into raids.

Gearscore is a tool to derive a numerical value for the POTENTIAL of the player.

100% agree. More on this below.

To sum it up, lol@thepallywhothinksheistoughshit, if you voted yes it's because you have bad gear, get into a good guild and win.

Again, wrong.

You are 100% right about gearscore being a value of POTENTIAL. It shows the character has gear of a certain level, and that leaves the hope that they can play their character to that level.

In that aspect, it's very similar to requiring achievements to be linked. It shows the character received the achievement, which leaves the hope that they earned it.

I've seen a lot of people with gearscore and achievements who couldn't step out of fire, who couldn't avoid boss fight mechanics (with warnings!), who couldn't put out reasonable DPS (for their gear/spec) or who had no clue how to tank/heal (depending on spec), who didn't understand the fight at all (even ones they had an achievement for).

Gearscore is NOT a sure-fire way of determining if someone is "good enough"... but that's what a lot of groups use it for. (I even saw someone asking for 3500+ gearscore for Brewfest boss the other day; that might have been a joke... but it drew a lot of derision in Trade.)

What I've started seeing recently, however, are PUGs (say, for VoA) inviting more people than they need (e.g., 28 people for a 25-man run)... then kicking the lowest gearscore people. Sure, that might be best in some cases - but watching some of the failures they kept when I KNOW that at least one of the people they kicked would have been a LOT better is rather frustrating.

[Tankyouverymuch]

I believe that gear score should be used to determine that you are geared enough for an instance assuming you are an average to slightly below average player, not to determine the likelihood that you are a good player.

Put yourself in the shoes of an unsophisticated pug raid leader who wants to maximize his chances of success. Assuming that everyone is an average player, your best bet is to fill your raid with players sporting high gear scores. I'm not even certain that most pug leaders believe that high gear scores equate to being a "good" player - they just know that high gear scores equate to an easier time and relatively greater odds of raid success. In the end, that's all that matters.

[Fornaw]

anyone who still puts faith in gearscore obviously doesn't realise how easy gearing up is.

Since it is in fact easy to gear up in this game I wouldn't want to form a raid for current content bringing along people who can still get upgrades from heroics. I think its fair to use an addon to help a raid leader make that determination. I have no doubt that some good players will get left behind on content that they could clear, but good players also know where the upgrades are, and should be willing to go get them. Good players also know that there are gear checks in all levels of content, and don't wish to be carried through.

Assuming the gearscore addon works something like wowheros it will give much higher weights to gemming and enchanting than the stats from gemming and enchanting really warrant. So in a way it is rewarding points for effort, making it a lot more fair than making people link their epic achievement or have at least X health/mana.

I'm being a bit of a devil's advocate here, I don't really have a problem with some people having less gear than others in a pug raid, but if anything is ruining this game, gearscore addons isn't it.

[Vanchesco]

Yes its easy to gear up. But those kinds of "easy carries" will only get you to around 4k. so anyone with more than say, 4.5K i would say actually knows good enough what their doing to get into more than just carries. so having an alt with 3k either means that you are too lazy to gear up, or aren't good enough to.

To the people who say raid leaders for pugs are retarded for using GS, who is going to say "ya, i got crappy gear and i suck." people with bad gear scores have to lie to get into the pugs if they really aren't good. Theres no way to test everyones skills and knowledge of the fights without taking them in. People with higher GS's have more potential.

But true, GS's alone wont tell you how good of a player they are, unless their rocking 5k+. When i'm picking pugs, i mainly look at gems, enchants, and talents.

The best thing to do is join a raiding guild and never pug again.

[Paladin885]

I have t8.5, etc (holy gear) and I honestly dont care about gearscore or even understand how it is important. Every upgrade is going to have a numerical value to it and the higher your gear the higher your score.

if nothing else its just a phallic symbol like everything else in wow lol.



Now I will admit I do keep track of all the paladins on my server (using warcrafter.com) and its only for fun and to see how everyone is doing. With all the raiding of various guilds I only know progression but this allows me to see each and every guildies own progression. Plus I like to see how everyone gears up and what everyone seems to prefer. Ironically every class and every spec is about 98% the same lol.

[Brewswami]

Problems I have with gearscore:
It only looks at the item level not whether the item is good for the class. PVP gear is much worse for dps than pve gear. A 200 ilevel pve item most of the time will out dps a 226 ilevel pvp item. A shaman wearing a ilevel 226 ring/cloak with spirit on it is really disguessed wearing a 200 ilevel.

Gearscore also makes the raid leader's job too easy. Many people used to not want to lead a raid for the sole reason that they would have to armory everyone. Since gearscore has come out, I am finding at least 1/2 the pug's raid leaders on my server are completely lazy, incompetent and have a sense of entitlement with their wellfare epics giving them a 4500 gear score. There would be less idiots running raids if these kind of mods were not available. With the increase of immature idiots leading pugs, I am also seeing about a 100% increase in raid leaders ninja'ing/reserving gear.

There are some great pug raid leaders on my server, and they utilize the best tool of all. Paying attention to who is failing and who is doing a great job and then making notes on their friend's list or a mod to help keep track of that. It only takes a few seconds and saves you hours having skilled players who will most likely run with you everyweek. I have 4 level 80's all over 4800 gear score and have never been in a guild since level 70. Who needs a guild when as soon as you log on you are getting messaged/invited to raids from good raid leaders who kept track of the fact that you are awsome.

[Pielord]

Put yourself in the shoes of an unsophisticated pug raid leader who wants to maximize his chances of success. Assuming that everyone is an average player, your best bet is to fill your raid with players sporting high gear scores. I'm not even certain that most pug leaders believe that high gear scores equate to being a "good" player - they just know that high gear scores equate to an easier time and relatively greater odds of raid success. In the end, that's all that matters.

This.

I tend to raid lead alot of pugs, And 80% of the time, higher average gear score = higher chance of success. I'm sorry, but in general I am not looking out to gear your exceptionally-played-but-not-geared-alt-which-you-leveled-to-be-your-new-main-so-you-really-know-how-to-dps/heal/tank-gud character. I am looking to do the best for the raid, and this in general means getting people with better gear. Where do you draw the line? Should I take every ones word for it, and then bring in people in blues and ilvl 200 epics to ToC or H ToC raids because , from their own accounts they are really really good at this game? Newsflash: This game is easy. And if for some reason I manage to get some failures in the group, well, just remember who NOT to invite next time.

[Kyrottas]

anyone who still puts faith in gearscore obviously doesn't realise how easy gearing up is.

Anyone that puts faith in gear score or HP totals for DPS equivalency should go off themselves now

[Spl4sh3r]

I just want to say that gearscore isn't always correct in judging, I mean for example Greatness trinket is ilvl 200 which is pretty much the lowest ilvl on epics for level 80 as a result lowest gearscore of epics :P

Higher ilvl doesn't always mean BiS

[Kayvas]

who judge a player for is gear score is a moron, end of discussion

btw a player have to understand what are its limits with the equip that has available

[sd78]

If you're competent player having problems getting your alt geared, JOIN A GUILD.

You can't expect random PUGs to be able to assess your skill if you are massively undergeared for the raid.

[strossus001]

GEARSCORE =/= ANYTHING OF RELEVANCE

[bayi]

"Gearscore" was in the game since day one called Item Level and the ppl who judge u based on your items are the same than the ones who inspected you before you joined their raids.
IF you want better gear for your alts join a guild, i pug very rarely and i have mostly positive experience