Does Scourge Strike and Disease Glyphs used together give a DPS increase?

[skaarrj]

Hear me out. I just can't see blizzard providing a patch that they say is not supposed to be a DPS decrease with the changes we've seen them make to the glyph of SS, i'm trying to see things from their point of view, which means figuring out the best use of the scourge strike glyph. So hear me out.

Glyph of the Ghoul, Glyph of Disease, and Glyph of Scourge Strike. You take both Reaping and Epidemic.

So our diseases will last 21 seconds. Enter Scourge Strike Glyph (3 scourge strikes) and now our diseases will last 30 seconds. That's 30 seconds that you don't have to use any runes to refresh diseases at all. This saves a lot of runes that can be used for more scourge strikes, which means more runic power. And when you do finially have to refresh your diseases, you just use pestilence to do so, instead of using a Frost and Unholy rune for icy touch and plague strike.

So in 30 seconds you're only going to be using 1 rune to keep diseases up.

How is this a DPS loss to what's going on now? I'm not good at theory crafting, i'm not math oriented guy, this is just a thought that i had.

[Exclusive]

Well first of all, especially in high end gear, reaping is a dps loss since 2 blood strikes do more damage than a single scourge strike.
Epidemic kinda as well but that's still arguable.

The big question for your setup is... does the glyph of scourge strike work when you refresh the duration with glyph of disease or not? Because the glyph clearly states "refreshes the duration" instead of "re-applies your diseases".

But on the other hand, plague strike + icy touch is not even that much less damage than scourge strike but it does give more RP, which is on it's turn more DC's and UB damage.

Unholy has changed a lot. A while ago, it was all about spamming scourge strikes as your entire post is about. But nowadays, it's completely different and your damage comes more from other sources than from scourge strike.

You should try the EJ forums, there's a post there called something like, scourge strike now and forever, it has really good information on the place of scourge strike (and basically the entire unholy tree) and I'm sure it will clear up some things for you.

[Ion]

2 blood strikes are not going to outdamage 1 scourge strike if one of them does not crit, and if scourge strike crits. There's a bigger chance of scourge strike critting than having both blood strikes crit.

And my average damage of 2 combined blood strikes is lower than 1 scourge strike. Im geared pretty well, 4 piece tier 9, 232 weapon. I do need to test out to see if disease and scourge strike can even work together. I don't visit EJ forums, they're too mathy for me.

[Dethday]

2 blood strikes are not going to outdamage 1 scourge strike if one of them does not crit, and if scourge strike crits. There's a bigger chance of scourge strike critting than having both blood strikes crit.

And my average damage of 2 combined blood strikes is lower than 1 scourge strike. Im geared pretty well, 4 piece tier 9, 232 weapon. I do need to test out to see if disease and scourge strike can even work together. I don't visit EJ forums, they're too mathy for me.

Are you sure you've been playing in 3.2? Where SS hits like a wet noodle? 2 non-crit BS >>> 1 crit SS.

[Shiira]

I am currently using the optimal talent/glyph setup for unholy, feel free to copy it.

http://armory.wow-europe.com/charact...atol&n=Leorina

And yes reaping is a dps loss.

[Wingwraith]

Are you sure you've been playing in 3.2? Where SS hits like a wet noodle? 2 non-crit BS >>> 1 crit SS.

^this.

[Exclusive]

And this is my gear/glyph/spec, dual wield unholy.
Yes, dual wield unholy.

And it's actually doing more damage than my old cookiecutter dw frost spec. The biggest difference is in my old spec, oblit/melee/froststrike were all about 20-22% of total damage. Now it's like 28% melee and the rest is below 20%. Doesn't matter, only makes potion of speed more efficient ^^

http://armory.wow-europe.com/charact...l-Nerub&n=Raiz

[I_r_smERt_dkayy]

Are you sure you've been playing in 3.2? Where SS hits like a wet noodle? 2 non-crit BS >>> 1 crit SS.

my SS always crits usually for around 7-9k
and i dont even have the best gear

[Wingwraith]

Kahorie's Sim results.
My current dps gear is 2/5 T9.5; 3/5 T8.5
(excuse me for not making a table)

As you can see, 2 BS > 1 SS

Ability Total % Landed Hit% Crit% Miss% Average
Main Hand 53531059 21 13199 61.2 38.8 0 4055.7
Death Coil 33715127 13.2 5998 57.6 42.4 0 5621.1
Ghoul 31762667 12.5 32736 87.1 12.9 0 970.3
Scourge Strike 25799397 10.1 4432 54.9 45.1 0 5821.2
Blood Strike 21953608 8.6 6958 51.7 48.3 0 3155.2
Gargoyle 14210726 5.6 3592 86.7 13.3 0 3956.2
Frost Fever 13520141 5.3 10290 100 0 0 1313.9
Blood Plague 12551795 4.9 9861 100 0 0 1272.9
Necrosis 10704742 4.2 13199 100 0 0 811
Wandering Plague 9576082 3.8 7417 100 0 0 1291.1
Plague Strike 8053284 3.2 2244 56.1 43.9 0 3588.8
Blood Caked Blade 7676571 3 3921 100 0 0 1957.8
UB 6742824 2.6 5998 100 0 0 1124.2
Icy Touch 5243247 2.1 2058 65.8 34.2 0 2547.7
Horn 0 0 893 0 0 0 0
DPS 7084
Total Damage 255.04m in 10h
Threat Per Second 3529
Generated in 8s
Template: my 16-0-55 Unholy
Priority: My Unholy DC Priority
Presence: Blood
Sigil: Virulence
RuneEnchant: FallenCrusader
Pet Calculation: True

[Ion]

Yeah, Sim's not workin for me there Wingwraith.

My scourge strikes crit for 7-8k, and my bloodstrikes dont even see above 3k crits EVER.

I dont rely on sims, i rely on personal experience, well, not sure why i made this thread in the first place if everyones just gonna pretty much quote elitist jerks. I'm sitting here with completely different results.

[bigblack23]

....I'm sitting here with completely different results.

I bet you 500g you just havn't bothered to look at recount properly.
Post screenshots.
As soon as you do this, you will (most probably) see that you are wrong.

Elitist Jerks are also pretty dam accurate on their Deathknight info, they aren't always optimal in their information (although this is quite rare for them not to be aswell), but i can't recall a moment where they have been absolutely incorect, especially in something so simple as determining whether 2 x bs is better than 1 x ss

[Proletariat]

Maybe your raid has no armour debuff

[bigblack23]

2 blood strikes are not going to outdamage 1 scourge strike if one of them does not crit, and if scourge strike crits. There's a bigger chance of scourge strike critting than having both blood strikes crit.

I just did a test dummy for 3 mins.
Average BS hit = 1630
Average SS hit = 3074

Armour debuffs (like sunders) will only make BS better than SS even more in actual boss fights.

Your above sentence is not only contradictory (because you say that you only need 1 x bs crit versus 1 x ss crit, but then go on to compare 2 x bs crits versus 1 x ss crit), but it is also wrong for the following reason -

There is more chance that you will get one bs crit if you use it twice, compared to getting a ss crit if you only use it once. You in fact have double the chance of getting a bs crit.

And my average damage of 2 combined blood strikes is lower than 1 scourge strike.......

I don't believe you. As i said before, post a screenshot or simply stop making shit up you THINK is correct compared to saying stuff you HAVE PROVED to be correct.

Unfortunately (for you), WoW is one of the few places where opinions are easily proved/disproved by performing simple tests. This is why opinions have very little meaning unless they are backed up with results.

It took me a simple 3 minute test to prove that your idea was bad. Probably less time than it took you to write the post

[Shiira]

Yeah, Sim's not workin for me there Wingwraith.

My scourge strikes crit for 7-8k, and my bloodstrikes dont even see above 3k crits EVER.

I dont rely on sims, i rely on personal experience, well, not sure why i made this thread in the first place if everyones just gonna pretty much quote elitist jerks. I'm sitting here with completely different results.

If you're going to make a point of relying on anecdotal data rather than sims designed to eliminate uncontrolled variables to produce reliable numbers then you don't really belong in a serious theorycraft discussion.

[Nillo]

There is more chance that you will get one bs crit if you use it twice, compared to getting a ss crit if you only use it once. You in fact have double the chance of getting a bs crit.

That's so wrong: Using an ability more often does increase the _number_ of crits but neither increases the _chance_ to crit nor the total damage done.

[bigblack23]

That's so wrong: Using an ability more often does increase the _number_ of crits but neither increases the _chance_ to crit nor the total damage done.

There is more chance that you will get one bs crit if you use it twice (compared to using an ability once)

What we are talking about is binomial probability (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binomial_probability) of a single event occuring in multiple event situations.

I should of probably used the word "probable" instead of chance.


The % chance of a crit happening in a single event situation will always remain fixed, and while multiple occurences of this single independant event happening remain a % fixed chance to crit, the actualy probability (or chance) of you achieveing one crit the more times you use the ability increases.


You can pick the words apart all you like, but i think the point remained clear. -

The more times you use an ability, the higher chance (probability) you will have of producing a single crit.

[Nillo]

The more times you use an ability, the higher chance (probability) you will have of producing a single crit.

Again - how does that matter in any way? It does neither increase the chance to crit nor does it increase the overall damage done compared to Scourge Strike.

To make it simple : 50% crit ; 1500 BS , 3000 SS ; crit modifier 200% for both skills.

SS is now either 3000 damage (50% chance) or 6000 damage (50% chance) (4500 average)
BS is now either 1500*2=3000 (25% chance) or 3000+1500 or 1500+3000 = 4500 (50% chance) or 3000*2=6000 (25% chance) , which is an average of 4500 as well.

[bigblack23]

Again - how does that matter in any way? It does neither increase the chance to crit nor does it increase the overall damage done compared to Scourge Strike.

Over the course of the whole fight, then your above sentence is correct.
The average sum of all blood strikes are directly comparable to the average sum of all scourge strikes and will remain unchanged based on a fixed % of crit.

I, however was replying to what the OP said here -

2 blood strikes are not going to outdamage 1 scourge strike if one of them does not crit, and if scourge strike crits. There's a bigger chance of scourge strike critting than having both blood strikes crit.

And my average damage of 2 combined blood strikes is lower than 1 scourge strike.

Where the OP was compareing the overall damage done with 2 x BS (each with independant fixed % chances to crit) compared with the overall damage of 1 x ss (that has a fixed % chance to crit).

Comparing 2 abilities with 1 in this way in an independant outcome results at looking at all possible outcomes and comparing them directly.

Lets assume BS will hit for 1.6k and crit for 3.2k, whereas ss will hit for 3k and crit for 6k. (@ 50% fixed chance to crit on both abilities)

Scenario 1 -
2 x bs hits = 3.2k
1 x ss hit = 3k

Scenario 2 -
1 x bs hit + 1 x bs crit = 4.8k
1 x ss hit = 3k

Scenario 3 -
1 x bs crit + 1 x bs hit = 4.8k
1 x ss hit = 3k

Scenario 4 -
2 x bs crits = 6.4k
1 x ss hit = 3k

Scenario 5 -
2 x bs hits = 3.2k
1 x ss crit = 6k

Scenario 6 -
1 x bs hit + 1 x bs crit = 4.8k
1 x ss crit = 6k

Scenario 7 -
1 x bs crit + 1 x bs hit = 4.8k
1 x ss crit = 6k

Scenario 8 -
2 x bs crits = 6.4k
1 x ss crit = 6k


In an independant comparions of 2 x bs versus 1 x ss you can see that in 5/8 situation bs will produce more damage.

I was directly replying to the OP's comparions (whether or not he was right to compare in this way is irrelevant for the reply i gave him).

I have never said that the the more you use an ability, the higher your chances to crit with that ability.

I simply said the more you use an ability, the more chance you will have of critting AT LEAST ONCE.

In an singular event of all possible outcomes, comparing an ability you use TWICE does make a DIFFERENCE to an ability you use ONCE when looking at fixed % chances of crit.

The problem here is that you are applying my sentences to the OVERALL OUTCOME, whilst i was never applying them to the overall outcome, i was making reply to a SPECIFIC SENTENCE the op made that specifically looked at all possible outcomes of a SINGULAR EVENT.

[Exclusive]

I dont rely on sims, i rely on personal experience, well, not sure why i made this thread in the first place if everyones just gonna pretty much quote elitist jerks. I'm sitting here with completely different results.

I completely agree with you, I never do sims or spreadsheets or shit whatever. I do read EJ for "inspiration" (so to say), but my final decision always comes from my own experiences in raid environment.

And it's actually doing more damage than my old cookiecutter dw frost spec. The biggest difference is in my old spec, oblit/melee/froststrike were all about 20-22% of total damage. Now it's like 28% melee and the rest is below 20%. Doesn't matter, only makes potion of speed more efficient ^^

http://armory.wow-europe.com/charact...l-Nerub&n=Raiz

Yes I did get the basics of my spec and the idea about DW unholy from EJ, but maybe you should read beter because I clearly said "it's doing more damage than my dw frost spec", which means I tested it and didn't run some sim or whatever.

[Adlian]

dont forget BS trigger 2p t9 set bonus