21 crit or 21 agi Meta

[Profânity]

Well i perfer 21 crit meta over the 21 agi because of the t9 gem bonuses. But alot of people on my server keep telling me to use the 21 agi where as i dont need agi and i dont mind socketing x2 blue gems?

With all the t9 bonuses you get an extra 28 stre (5/5 t9) even with 4/5 t9 you still get alot depending on the pieces your wearing.

Opinions please.

[XtreO]

As a DPS warrior I'd take the agi one, because of two things - It yields about the same amount of crit after raid buffs and you can gem more strenght and still have it working.

[phantomlink]

use the 21 agi meta, use a nightmare's tear to activate it and then just use all red or yellow gems

[noogie]

It purely depends on your gemming. Do you plan to stack nothing but armor pen? Well then going with a 21 agility is worthwhile. Do you play to get one of your Blue gem socket bonuses because of that extra bit of expertise you may use? Then you probably wanna go with the 21 crit.

What works for one player on this particular topic, won't work for another player. It all comes down to your gem selection in the end. Are you planning on slotting a blue or yellow gem? If so then go 21 crit, if not, go agi.

[Horn]

use the 21 agi meta, use a nightmare's tear to activate it and then just use all red or yellow gems

This is generally the case for all physical damage dealers.

[Sidonis]

This is generally the case for all physical damage dealers.

As long as you're at the point you've stopped rapidly replacing gear and are using epic gems in all sockets. Or if you're ok with spending the money on epic gems while rapidly upgrading. Point being, if you're using blue quality gems still, then it's okay to use the 21 crit rating gem as was done before 3.2 when epic gems were introduced.

[Elttab]

This is a somewhat difficult topic to give a clear-cut answer on, as most people in the thread have said.
In all fairness, it's very difficult to say without seeing your armory. I'd suggest checking Landsoul's spreadsheet.
For an example though, where the "exception to the rule" applies, it's better, according to my current SEP values, for me to use the +21 crit, because I have two slots that give a +6 (or better) strength bonus. My crit SEP is sitting at ~.95, with agi sitting at ~.75, which makes 21 crit win out against 21 agi + 4 str.
Regardless, it's such a marginal difference I doubt you'd notice it if you did switch. My math comes out to a .2 SEP difference, using rounded values that is.

[Nillo]

The difference between those 2 possibilities is usually so small (you often get a 2nd +6 Str blue slot), that I wouldn't sacrifice 15 stamina for that insignificant dps gain (if it is a gain).

[Master Guns]

Can someone *please* look at my armory and tell me if I should use 21 agi or crit?
I keep going over the numbers in my head and thinking mentally what I would socket different and it just gets messy.
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...k&n=Aggronautt

[VibeTribe]

I honestly don't understand why would someone take relentless over chaotic.

Relentless - 21 agility = 0,366% crit
Chaotic - 21 crit rating ~ 0,47% crit

I've done the maths counting with BoK+GoW and it still didn't compensate using relentless. I may have done the math wrong tho.

The real issue here is only if it compensates while having agility buffed, not the color requirements, because both give the same results.

Using relentless :

1 red - 20 str

1 blue - nightmare's tear (10str)

1 yellow - 10 str

Total of 40 strenght.

Using chaotic :

1 Blue - Tear (10 str)

1 Blue - 10 str

The 3rd one you don't have to worry about while comparing with the relentless - 20str

Total of 40 strenght.

EDIT: I've just repeated my calculations and i've changed my mind, i missed some stuff i shouldn't have. Relentless is indeed superior to chaotic, but i would guess it still relies a bit on the type of gemming you're doing.

[Nillo]

Relentless - 21 agility = 0,366% crit
Chaotic - 21 crit rating ~ 0,47% crit

I've done the maths counting with BoK+GoW and it still didn't compensate using relentless. I may have done the math wrong tho.

Using relentless :
1 red - 20 str
1 blue - nightmare's tear (10str)
1 yellow - 10 str

Total of 40 strenght.

Using chaotic :
1 Blue - Tear (10 str)
1 Blue - 10 str

The 3rd one you don't have to worry about while comparing with the relentless - 20str

Total of 40 strenght.

There's so many mistakes in here:

GoW doesn't affect the Relentless Meta - what makes you think it does?

Your colors are just all wrong:

Relentless - requires 1 of each color:
1 Nightmare's tear (Prisma -> requirements met)
1 Red gem = 20 Str

Chaotic - requires 2 blue
1 Nightmare's tear (just because it's better than stam/str)
1 Purple gem = 10 Str
1 Socket bonus = 6 Str (don't know any pieces except for the helm that has +8 and taking +4 would just be stupid)

-> it's 21 Crit + 16 Str +(15 Stamina) vs 21 Agi + 20 Str

the difference is slim and as I said above I'd go for the chaotic because of the 15 stamina.

[VibeTribe]

There's so many mistakes in here:

GoW doesn't affect the Relentless Meta - what makes you think it does?

Your colors are just all wrong:

Relentless - requires 1 of each color:
1 Nightmare's tear (Prisma -> requirements met)
1 Red gem = 20 Str

Chaotic - requires 2 blue
1 Nightmare's tear (just because it's better than stam/str)
1 Purple gem = 10 Str
1 Socket bonus = 6 Str (don't know any pieces except for the helm that has +8 and taking +4 would just be stupid)

-> it's 21 Crit + 16 Str +(15 Stamina) vs 21 Agi + 20 Str

the difference is slim and as I said above I'd go for the chaotic because of the 15 stamina.

Yep, i made a huge mistake. I confused a few buffs in the middle, don't ask why.

Anyway, relentless still may be superior taking into account kings. Don't have time for maths atm.

[Battousai]

I honestly don't understand why would someone take relentless over chaotic.

Relentless - 21 agility = 0,366% crit
Chaotic - 21 crit rating ~ 0,47% crit

I've done the maths counting with BoK+GoW and it still didn't compensate using relentless. I may have done the math wrong tho.

The real issue here is only if it compensates while having agility buffed, not the color requirements, because both give the same results.

Using relentless :

1 red - 20 str

1 blue - nightmare's tear (10str)

1 yellow - 10 str

Total of 40 strenght.

Using chaotic :

1 Blue - Tear (10 str)

1 Blue - 10 str

The 3rd one you don't have to worry about while comparing with the relentless - 20str

Total of 40 strenght.

Except most put reds into yellow sockets even...so thats 10str more. And Nightmare's tear adds 10 more agl.

So you're really comparing this:

21 Agl plus 10 Str and 10 Agl from Nightmare and 20 str form the extra red you get to use, with BoK adds 34 Agl and 33 Str is .544 crit and 66 AP

21 crit rating plus 10 crit and 10 str (yellow) and 10 str (blue). With kings this is 31 crit rating and 22 Str.

In short:

- 0.544% crit and 66 AP (21 AGL META)
compared to
- 0.675% crit and 44 AP (21 CRIT META)

If you don't want to fill a yellow with a red even....fill a yellow slot with a 10 str - 10 crit instead of the red and you get

-0.76% crit and 44 AP (21 AGL META)
compared to
-0.675% and 44 AP (21 CRIT META)


....hence you get more crit out of the 21 Agl meta than the 21 crit.


/endthread

[Murrey]

Except most put reds into yellow sockets even...

Even the worst WotLK socket boni are worth ~2 strength and since crit-rating is worth more then 0,8 strength it is hard to understand your reasoning.
The difference ain't huge, but I am pretty sure that its always better to go for the bonus unless a blue socket, or a skill cap is involved.

[Nillo]

Except most put reds into yellow sockets even...so thats 10str more. And Nightmare's tear adds 10 more agl.

So you're really comparing this:

21 Agl plus 10 Str and 10 Agl from Nightmare and 20 str form the extra red you get to use, with BoK adds 34 Agl and 33 Str is .544 crit and 66 AP

21 crit rating plus 10 crit and 10 str (yellow) and 10 str (blue). With kings this is 31 crit rating and 22 Str.

Ah comeon read my post please, but to correct you it's 1 blue 1 yellow vs 2 blue gems on the meta:

the first line is correct 21 agi + (10 str + agi+ 10 stam) + 20 str
the seconds line is wrong it's 21 crit + (10str+agi + 10 stam) (yes you use the nightmares tear here as well) + (10 str + 15 stam) + 6 Str, you will never use a yellow gem here (why would you?)

TL;DR small amount of crit + stamina vs small amount of strength.

[Blasfomy]

Ah comeon read my post please, but to correct you it's 1 blue 1 yellow vs 2 blue gems on the meta:

the first line is correct 21 agi + (10 str + agi+ 10 stam) + 20 str
the seconds line is wrong it's 21 crit + (10str+agi + 10 stam) (yes you use the nightmares tear here as well) + (10 str + 15 stam) + 6 Str, you will never use a yellow gem here (why would you?)

TL;DR small amount of crit + stamina vs small amount of strength.

Okay, new stats (Nightmare tears cancel each other out).

Crit one:
21 crit(0.46% crit), 10 strength, 15 Stam.

Agility one:
21 agility(0.34% crit), 20 strength.

Strength is our number one stat, so no contest 10 str > .12% crit and (150 health is worthless) 15 stam.

[XtreO]

I honestly don't understand why would someone take relentless over chaotic.

Relentless - 21 agility = 0,366% crit
Chaotic - 21 crit rating ~ 0,47% crit

I've done the maths counting with BoK+GoW and it still didn't compensate using relentless. I may have done the math wrong tho.

The real issue here is only if it compensates while having agility buffed, not the color requirements, because both give the same results.

Using relentless :



1 red - 20 str

1 blue - nightmare's tear (10str)

1 yellow - 10 str

Total of 40 strenght.

Using chaotic :

1 Blue - Tear (10 str)

1 Blue - 10 str

The 3rd one you don't have to worry about while comparing with the relentless - 20str

Total of 40 strenght.

EDIT: I've just repeated my calculations and i've changed my mind, i missed some stuff i shouldn't have. Relentless is indeed superior to chaotic, but i would guess it still relies a bit on the type of gemming you're doing.

Well, duh. Your math is flawed. I cba finding the particular thread, but agi is superior to crit in terms of straight DPS stats. Go look it up on elitistjerks.

Edit: seems like Battousai corrected it allready

[Nillo]

Assuming epic gems.
Crit one:
21 crit(0.46% crit), 20 strength, 30 Stam.

Agility one:
21 agility(0.34% crit), 10 agi (.16% crit), 30 strength, 10 stam.

So the overall gain is greater if you gem the agility one over the crit rating one, even if crit rating is better than agility.

For the 3. time in this thread you use a nightmares tear with the Crit one and you get another + 6 socket bonus..... start reading my posts and stop ruining the work I've put into them.

[Battousai]

Ah comeon read my post please, but to correct you it's 1 blue 1 yellow vs 2 blue gems on the meta:

You're right...I intentionally left out the extra socket bonus...because not everyone has one that is applicable with your gear set...not to mention arms warriors will be using all the red slots with ArP which scale completely different than Str...potentially a lot better depending on how much passive ArP they already have. I also assumed an orange in the yellow...its possible I mistyped it.

My repsonse was directed at the difference raid buffed. Assuming that you had a Full BoK on. The Agl gained helps the Relentless. Not to mention that evidently Agl increases AP slightly through Armored to the Teeth.

EDIT: 15 stamina is not a concern in my opinion...and its my opinion. When splash damage hits as hard as it does, that little extra isn't going to save your life. And as a min maxer for dps...I can't pass up str/arp/crit for stam at any point. Your going to stay alive a lot longer by just not dying to stupid stuff.

[VibeTribe]

Yes, relentless is better. I made a series of mistakes that probably confused the OP a little bit, sorry for that.

I also didn't take into account that 1agi = 2ap.

Relentless > Chaotic.

edit: Using landsoul's spreadsheet, chaotic gives a slight dps increase over relentless. Ok, now i confused myself.