Melee using PVE Gear in Arena's, Why is it ok?

[Iniquity]

Let me see if u got this right...U just stated that u need more skill in Wotlk than in TBC?? If u are....U kind sir are a first class idiot.


If not...forget that i ever made this comment ;D ;D

Ofcourse I didn't state you needed more skill in wotlk than in tbc. Simply tried to state that in tbc pve gear was almost required. Whereas in wotlk it isn't because the damage is so high even with full pvp gear.

And ofcourse that no matter if you decide to use pve gear and pvp gear, or simply just pvp gear you can get to the top if you just have the skill, which is my point about this not being an issue and has nothing to do with TBC

[SwiZzZ*]

He arena's in 4 pieces of Tier gear and then uses the relentless accessories , He said "The 4 set bonus makes resil useless". I Frequently see Rogues/Rets/Warriors doing the same thing. I recently encountered a rogue who wore 4 Tier pieces in arena and was rated 2300+. (why is it ok, why is there no penalty?) Why can he have higher burst/ higher sustained, and not really suffer any survivability? )

Please wear pve gear. i play elemental sham destruc lock holy pala (3vs3 wizardcleave). If they wear tier gear they go even faster down then 1.5 sec ;D mate u say and not really suffer any survivability??? rofl let me crit 11k or more with coe and my shamans totums with chaos bolt and conflag

Greetz mars

[K4ge]

Ofcourse I didn't state you needed more skill in wotlk than in tbc. Simply tried to state that in tbc pve gear was almost required. Whereas in wotlk it isn't because the damage is so high even with full pvp gear.

And ofcourse that no matter if you decide to use pve gear and pvp gear, or simply just pvp gear you can get to the top if you just have the skill, which is my point about this not being an issue and has nothing to do with TBC

The exact opposite. In BC you could play with full pvp as any class (neilyo getting vengeful on bg9 and brutal on rampage with ONLY pvp gear), now you almost need pve gear. It was worse in s5, but still.

[Varon]

there would be a solution for the "problem" of using PVE gear in PVP ...

Double Resil on PVP Gear and give PVP gear "Resil piercing" thus it lowers the effective Resil to the previous amount if you are full PVP geared

ex.
(just making up numbers)
Now: 1k resil in full PVP gear ~10% dmg reduction etc.
after Change: 2k resil in Full PVP gear ~20% dmg reduction ect.
but in full PVP gear 1k Resil piercing thus a full PVP geard opponent has only 1k resil again
but if you waer full PVE gear you still face 2k resil.

could be better to jsut make the resil piercing % based rather than fixed numbers ...

[mxl]

last season i played elm/destro/holy pala and my warlock was using 2 part t8 and we got to 2500 so i guess its not really a big prob

[B.A.N.]

Ofcourse I didn't state you needed more skill in wotlk than in tbc. Simply tried to state that in tbc pve gear was almost required. Whereas in wotlk it isn't because the damage is so high even with full pvp gear.

Oh yeah. Dude, I remember those days when warlock and druid in 2v2 were like "Ok, this is it... I DoT 'em, you just run away like crazy and often heal me... Oh! and do some cyclones"

Then our team was suddenly in 2k rating.

[Barradin]

To the OP,

People have always used pve gear in arenas (even moreso in bg's). Yes, this may seem unfair when certain classes appear to get away with using more of it than others but remember the following:

1) pve gear is itemized for greater damage (though certain stats aren't exactly useful in pvp - hunter haste for example).
2) pvp gear is itemized for survivability - stam/resil - at the expense of your dps stats.

every class makes the trade-off of survivability and functional output (HPS/DPS) it's just a matter of how far the balance is swung. Believe me and a lot of the other players out there that will attest to how fast ANY class without ANY pvp gear will drop.

It's arena - 'a tournament'. People can play/use whatever distribution of gear they wish. Some high level dps will be all PVP geared because they get focused a lot, another dps will mix gear - team strat also comes into play here too - but the trade-off between damage output and relative survivability is distinctly noticable with every piece of gear you change over.

If you find rogues/dk's/war's/hunters/whatever doing too much damage, then that team is gambling/prioritizing protecting those dps from harm because they will drop faster than the same player stacking pvp gear. They won't do as much damage but then they'll be much harder to kill

6 of one, half a dozen of the other.

also - PVP gear actually puts out a fair bit of damage too once you get the better tiers of it.

[Unionflip]

I don't get the point of all this. What are they going to do, not allow you to wear pve gear?
I wear a few pieces for burst in 2's and more resilience in 3's. You gain burst but give up survivability. For the record i have been past 2k in every season in 2's and 3's. I play feral.

[TwistedPower]

For warriors, If you have 2 pieces of relentless set, and all the offset, you can easily wear 3 pieces of say Hellscreams set for 6% amror pen in battle stance. The 4 pieces bonous for reduction of cooldown for intercept is not needed for an Arms warrior. All the while still at around 600-700 res, yet sitting at just under 5k atk power unbuffed.

But I would say certain melee classes dont have that luxery. Like enh shamens, becuase they are squishy in the first place.

[codyallyn]

I appreciate all the posts from people, and I appreciate the suggestions and Ideas and thoughts, Not really fond of the trolls, and flame; but I guess such is life with a forum.

Thanks Varon;
I liked your idea of Double Resil on PVP Gear and give PVP gear "Resil piercing" thus it lowers the effective Resil to the previous amount if you are full PVP geared

I wish blizzard would do something like that.
Personally for me It seems such a waste of effort and time esp for those classes who Need every bit of resilience they can get their hands on when someone like a warrior/rogue/ret can come along wearing a mixture of PVE gear and benefit from a set bonus and essentially make the resilience feel useless.

Thanks Trishot
I also liked your thoughts regarding how to fix;
How to fix it? Either buff casters survivability, nerf the survivability of melee or nerf the output of healers.

Re-Cap
To re-cap, I understand that people wear PVE gear in PVP scenarios, and I realize some people wear PVP gear in PVE scenarios. My Point is that an equally geared PVE person put up against an equally geared PVP person will out perform them; Healers will heal for more, DPS will DPS for more. Performance is definitely in favor of PVE.

Anyhow, I think the main point of my question has slipped through the cracks and is unanswered still.


What I already know, and what's been mentioned more than once in this forum and probably many others regarding pve geared people in arena's.

1. I already know people do it.
2. I already know people did it in TBC, etc..
3. I know why people do it now. (More burst, more damage, higher pressure, etc.)
4. I know Rogues/Rets/Warriors are the highest percentage of classes who do it.
5. I know why classes like Priests/Enh Shamans/Caster dps doesn't do it (because they are squishy and aren't afforded the luxury).
6. I know Most people agree that certain classes benefit from it, with less worry of repercussion (rogues/feraldruids/paladins/warriors).

Lets for a minute assume that PVP is PVP and PVE is PVE; As mentioned above PVE gear outperforms PVP gear in PVE situations and this is already known, not questioned and not challenged. Logically then, shouldn't PVP gear out perform PVE gear in PVP situations?


My question is "Why is it ok for some to benefit from PVE gear in PVP situations and not all?"; Also, If Resilience is the defining variable for PVP gear, why does it allow for 2-4 piece bonuses from pve/tier gear to make it feel essentially useless? Why does it not take into consideration this matter? Why if in a PVP scenario should the PVE geared person benefit from the situation? Why is it ok?

[K4ge]

Pile of BS, every single mage uses pve gear, almost all warlocks use pve gear.
If you don't know what you're saying please shut up,

[meliancill]

let me explane this a little better with a fairly good arena makup for 3v3

holy pally / ms warrior / enhance - ele shaman

the holy paladin will use a mix of pve gear and pvp gear to up spell power, mana, and crit. the pvp gear just dosnt give enough for a holy paladin however they still need some to be viable. 500-700 is fairly common for a holy paladin

an ms warrior in this team will use a bit of pvp gear and pve gear. the pvp gear is to grab around 700 resil after they hit that number most will go full pve to up burst damage.

the shaman ele or enhance will stack resil ( commonly geting 1k some times more ). this is because normaly shamans are focused down. they have insane burst as ele and can be more than a pain in the ass if played properly as enhance. removing blood lust / heroism and totems is normaly the first priority when you enter a game and have to fight agenst a team with one.

because shamans get focused down 90% of the time ( personal experiance ) they stack much more resil than other classes. most commonly using full pvp gear even some gems for resil with pvp weapons as well ( if they are high rated )


in this case for this team makup PWS the pally and warrior normaly dont get focused down so they dont have to worry about surviving that much. the enhance / ele shaman however is normaly the first to get focused so in his / her case they need much more resil. like i said 1k tends to be the norm, however you can go down to 800 and still have it not make TO much of a diffrence. however 800 is on the low end in this case and 1k is much better.

i hope this explanes why some classes / team makups have diffrent amounts of pvp and pve gear. it realy just depends on how often and how fast you die in arena. if you die to fast stack more resil - if you can tank 2 playes at a time while your healer deals the most damage on your team you probably have to much resil and need to drop some for damage.

[chrion]

because somehow blizzard forgot that squishy class's need to kite and set up CC to do damage, they have given the melee class's more CD's to use to close the gap on range than range do to keep the distance, which is the opposite of how it damn well should be. Also melee plate class's for some god aweful reason have been given damage on par with squishy glass cannon type class's, which obviously makes no sense, and has turned 3v3 into a frustrating headache for ranged casters who are playing 10x faster screaming out on vent timing everything perfectly!!! to set up damage. Only to have what I picture to be 2 fat kids with there eyes half closed talking in super monotone s...l...o...w motion on the other team just casually holding the W key walking towards one target the whole time popping whatever CD they need to easily close the gap and smash whatever clothy they feel like with over 1k resilience in 3 globals. Either range needs to have the advantage to kite alomost nonstop, or big plate melee need to have there damage output cut more than in half for any balance to occur. Meleecraft is no fun

[Hi11topper]

Intersting stuff. I have a question though.

I run ret/ resto druid for 2s. How much PvE gear shoud I be wearing? I have 3 piece furious, 2 deadly, and the non set peices are either relentless or furious.
My damage is still shit-tacular and can't get kills unless my healer really cc's well.
Is it just a crappy weapon issue? Im using Edge of Ruin from HTOC. I would include my armory but I am at work and logged out in my prot gear.

Any advice appreciated.

[Clarkis2001]

On my 3s team (yes the rating is horrible but we only played one night and one week because the healer is too busy now) we were flying along winning, winning, winning (War, Lock, Druid) and then BAM hit a team 3 times in a row: Ele Sham, Destro Lock and I don't even know wtf the third member was. The casters were in all PvE gear and BLEW ONE OF US THE F UP IN SECONDS!

Can casters wear PvE gear in arena? Yes. Is it riskier? Maybe. Does it excel to the degree of melee using PvE gear? I doubt it BUT they hit harder than any melee in PvE gear if given a few seconds.

Just wanted to point out melee may pull this off more often but casters can too. If anything this just exemplifies the issue (which I think is huge): PvE gear being used too much in PvP. If all raid/heroic dungeon drops had a debuff (X% less stat/dmg contribution vs players) that made it less attractive for PvP then maybe people would actually itemize the way Blizzard intended.

Maybe. Or maybe not. =p

[Barradin]

My question is "Why is it ok for some to benefit from PVE gear in PVP situations and not all?"; Also, If Resilience is the defining variable for PVP gear, why does it allow for 2-4 piece bonuses from pve/tier gear to make it feel essentially useless? Why does it not take into consideration this matter? Why if in a PVP scenario should the PVE geared person benefit from the situation? Why is it ok?

Thanks for clarifying what you were asking. To take another stab at it, I think that, yes, it seems a little unfair that some classes at least have the option of stacking pve OR pvp gear but I think this is more a symptom of certain types of class imbalances in pvp (maybe this is obvious). But while this IS somewhat unfair, it will depend on your team comp as well, a hunter might be most commonly focused on one team but largely left to their own devices when playing in another comp.

So again, yes I think that some melee classes lose less survivability by switching out pvp gear for pve pieces. However, I honestly enjoy the added arena dynamic of trying to figure out not only what the opposing team's comp is and the appropriate attack strategy, but also who's wearing pve vs pvp gear since it has a distinct effect on your strategy (i.e. that hunter or ret pally is extra dangerous = a higher priority target).

I think your idea of doubling PVP resil and then allowing it to be pierced definitely increases the relative value of pvp gear in pvp situations, but I'm not sure that then end result you're searching for (everyone playing pvp in pvp gear) is necessarily a good thing for arenas. Remember, it's not only a competition between players to determine their techincal play capabilities (i.e. fastest reaction time / best communication) but also their creative, on-their-feet, thinking (faking a heal to draw out a counterspell, creative or unusual compositions designed to counter more mainstream comps, etc.). That triple pve geared caster team mentioned above.. wrecks havoc on someone that's not expecting it but I'm comfortable guaranteeing you that the top tier teams wearing the better pvp gear will fare better in the end.

[deegee]

try wearing any pve gear in 2s as a lock
good luck lasting the first 8 seconds

[rathok]

Here is my complaint.... SOME classes benifit from PVE gear in PVP because their PVP gear is sub par. These would include - most melees, mages and ele shaman.

NO mage who is worth their salt wears more than 2 pieces of the glad set. In fact, most of the good ones dont even wear 2, they just wear either the current season chest or shoulders. My mage is my main and I he wears PVE Chest, helm, gloves and a trinket because our gladiators set offers us zero haste which as a frost mage is our #1/2 stat (haste vs sp is up for debate but crit is pretty much worthless).

Idk about you guys but i despise having to raid for my PVP gear. If i wanted to raid then i would raid. You'd think blizz could at least itemize PVP gear for us a little better. I've got a 2k rating in 3s but that doesnt do shit for me because i need to grind 75 badges for a helm that's worth a shit and another 45 for respectable shoulders.

[xDavidTChang]

Oh yeah. Dude, I remember those days when warlock and druid in 2v2 were like "Ok, this is it... I DoT 'em, you just run away like crazy and often heal me... Oh! and do some cyclones"

Then our team was suddenly in 2k rating.

dude those days were the best. and they weren't these gay 20second long games either, i think ive had a 47 minute long match against a mirror lol.

[Hi11topper]

hello, check my armory and you get a picture about what gear you should use

Thanks! So wear pretty much full pvp gear it is! Need to get me a ring and one of those badass darkmoon cards:P