Haste affects dots/hots(via glyphs)

[fabian]

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...43783047&sid=1

We are trying to make haste a slightly more attractive stat for classes that utilize a lot of damage or healing over time spells, specifically Shadow priests, warlocks (though especially Affliction) and Resto druids. We realize other classes use hots and dots too, but I think we can all agree that it's a bigger problem for the ones I mentioned.

I'm going to share with you an idea that the class and item designers came up with for 3.3. This is a work in progress so it's possible we'll end up going a different way after we see how it plays. However I also wanted to explain our logic here in case it wasn't obvious.

We have new tech that will allow specific hots and dots to tick faster -- the time between ticks would decrease. This means more damage or healing per time but also having to refresh those spells more often. Since there is a trade-off, we're not sure the change is a no-brainer, especially in the healing case.

Because of this, we are planning on introducing the concept through glyphs. Glyphs represent a great test bed for new ideas because they are easier to change (and easier on the players when we do change them) compared to core spell functions or even talents. If we like the way it feels and players like the way it feels and the glyphs prove popular or fun, then this may be the kind of thing that shifts from glyphs over time -- not unlike the way some favorite set bonuses eventually become talents.

For 3.3 we are talking about introducing three new glyphs for Shadow Word: Pain, Corruption and Rejuvenation that would allow these spells to tick faster with the more haste you have. There are glyphs of Corruption and Rejuv already, and we're not sure how we're going to resolve those yet. For Shadow Word: Pain, we are likely to rename the current glyph to Glyph of Mind Flay, remove the old Glyph of Mind Flay, and increase Mind Flay by 10 yards in the base spell.

Again, these are not promises (nor ponies). For a variety of reasons, you may see these changes on the PTR or you may not. If you do see any or all of the three glyphs implemented however, we wanted you to have some idea of what we were trying to do. Feedback is certainly appreciated, especially if you get to try them out.

/discuss

I see 2 good things, the (current) Glyph of Mind Flay will be going away, and more DPS!

The new Glyph of SW:P wouldn't even increase the amount of mana we use now since we refresh SW:P about every 3 seconds already!

[Direshadow]

I'm not exactly sure what to think at the moment. Having a hasted Shadow Word Pain would be nice, because despite the fact that it wouldn't last as long, it rarely falls off anyways due to mind flaying.

"For 3.3 we are talking about introducing three new glyphs for Shadow Word: Pain, Corruption and Rejuvenation that would allow these spells to tick faster with the more haste you have. There are glyphs of Corruption and Rejuv already, and we're not sure how we're going to resolve those yet. For Shadow Word: Pain, we are likely to rename the current glyph to Glyph of Mind Flay, remove the old Glyph of Mind Flay, and increase Mind Flay by 10 yards in the base spell."


That confuses me.


It'll be interesting to see exactly what happens.

[fabian]

I'm not exactly sure what to think at the moment. Having a hasted Shadow Word Pain would be nice, because despite the fact that it wouldn't last as long, it rarely falls off anyways due to mind flaying.

"For 3.3 we are talking about introducing three new glyphs for Shadow Word: Pain, Corruption and Rejuvenation that would allow these spells to tick faster with the more haste you have. There are glyphs of Corruption and Rejuv already, and we're not sure how we're going to resolve those yet. For Shadow Word: Pain, we are likely to rename the current glyph to Glyph of Mind Flay, remove the old Glyph of Mind Flay, and increase Mind Flay by 10 yards in the base spell."


That confuses me.


It'll be interesting to see exactly what happens.

What are you confused about? The glyph changes for priests?

[harky]

This would be a required glyph for Afflic and Shadow now. The 'shorter duration' would never come into play. It's something like a 25% gain on SW:P damage and possibly more for Corruption. Rejuvenation though? Eh... Druids would need to have haste working on Lifebloom and Wild Growth to start contemplating taking haste gear. It would be a slight throughput gain, but not compared to their other healing glyphs.

[Direshadow]

I'm confused about this part specificly


read it... maybe it's just worded oddly.

"For Shadow Word: Pain, we are likely to rename the current glyph to Glyph of Mind Flay, remove the old Glyph of Mind Flay, and increase Mind Flay by 10 yards in the base spell."

[Direshadow]

so if this change went through, would it effect PVP at all?

Would haste PVP gear become more important?

What's more, would the talent that refreshes SW:P become a more important talent in pvp as well?

[spec]

All round PvE and PvP buff for aff warlocks and shadowpriests.

I am slightly annoyed that it would require glyphs, i dont see glyphs like "your frostfire bolt will now be affected by haste", why dots should need em i dont know.

Better than nothing though, just hope its minor glyphs.

[Danner]

I'm confused about this part specificly
read it... maybe it's just worded oddly.

"For Shadow Word: Pain, we are likely to rename the current glyph to Glyph of Mind Flay, remove the old Glyph of Mind Flay, and increase Mind Flay by 10 yards in the base spell."

* Glyph of Mind Flay range increase becomes baseline.
* Glyph on Mind Flay will be renamed to something else, and do something completely different involving haste on SW:P. It's basically a completely new glyph, but if you are already using Glyph of Mind Flay you will get this glyph for free.

[Direshadow]

All round PvE and PvP buff for aff warlocks and shadowpriests.

I am slightly annoyed that it would require glyphs, i dont see glyphs like "your frostfire bolt will now be affected by haste", why dots should need em i dont know.

Better than nothing though, just hope its minor glyphs.

well at the moment, it seems like they're just using the Glyph idea as an experiment. This is a pretty big change, and is probably going to take a lot of testing. It may also come down to personal preference as well. It'd really suck if something went wrong, and suddenly Shadow Priests are sort of.... locked in this new mechanic that is cemented into the talent tree.

Either way... it seems like it's a nice buff. It also seems that Blizzard is finally getting the idea that... no... Shadow is NOT fine... and YES... we need help.

[KresnikHellfire]

When I first read it I was happy. For a buff is a buff, and this is a very nice buff.

I realise it's experimental but I'd still like to hear that Vampiric Touch and Devouring Plague are getting a haste buff before 3.3 hits though... I doubt it will happen.

Still, I remember Blizzard saying something to the effect of: "Shadowpriests are fine" a couple of weeks back. Kind of weird that they say this so quickly afterwards... maybe it was Eoy's blog yesterday that gave them the final push.

Gonna wait to see how it pans out, hope it works

[Direshadow]

When I first read it I was happy. For a buff is a buff, and this is a very nice buff.

I realise it's experimental but I'd still like to hear that Vampiric Touch and Devouring Plague are getting a haste buff before 3.3 hits though... I doubt it will happen.

Still, I remember Blizzard saying something to the effect of: "Shadowpriests are fine" a couple of weeks back. Kind of weird that they say this so quickly afterwards... maybe it was Eoy's blog yesterday that gave them the final push.

Gonna wait to see how it pans out, hope it works

I actually first read about it on WoWinsider.com, just the front headline, then I came here.

I'm actually VERY glad that haste isn't effecting VT or DP at the moment. VT is already a wee bit short, making it even shorter would be a nightmare. At least with SW:P, your mind flay constantly refreshes it for you.

[isfry]

Yeah it is nice that they are looking at a way for fix a stat that we have to have but avoid lots of (like +hit) and making it viable again. It will need to be played with alot to see what it will mean to us. The never ending SW:P with this will be nice but might not have been something they thought of. VT and DP dots will just take some more management and make the rotation/pirorities more demanding to keep up time.

This might just run counter to what i just said and there is nothing to play with this is pure speculation but dose this run the risk of making making the rotation static. where you have haste at play on all of our spells? Where the you can fit x number of MF's and MB's in dot rotation that that dot rotation is going to shrink at the same rate as the cast time on MF. the only thing that would not change would be the CD on MB? Ok time to wait and see and download my PTR client.

[KresnikHellfire]

I actually first read about it on WoWinsider.com, just the front headline, then I came here.

I'm actually VERY glad that haste isn't effecting VT or DP at the moment. VT is already a wee bit short, making it even shorter would be a nightmare. At least with SW:P, your mind flay constantly refreshes it for you.

Yeah, I do realise that. It's a very nice buff, I just don't think it's going to give us the 20+% we need to catch up with where we should be.

Haste still only affects the global cooldown of devouring plague and the cast time and GCD of vampiric touch.. the DoT portion still has no affect from haste. How they want to impliment it (% damage increase ?) or just making them tick faster, I don't know, but it's something I'd like to see for the sake of scaling.

[spec]

well at the moment, it seems like they're just using the Glyph idea as an experiment. This is a pretty big change, and is probably going to take a lot of testing. It may also come down to personal preference as well. It'd really suck if something went wrong, and suddenly Shadow Priests are sort of.... locked in this new mechanic that is cemented into the talent tree.

Either way... it seems like it's a nice buff. It also seems that Blizzard is finally getting the idea that... no... Shadow is NOT fine... and YES... we need help.

i actually play aff warlock, but there was no topic in the lock forum so i came here to air my views :P

[ignatius]

I predict only minor total output gain from using this glyph, which is not going to make shadow priest dps magically competitive with the other hybrids.

Go look at your parses, you probably look something like this across an entire raid:

MF 35%
VT 20%
Pain 15%
DP 15%
MB 13%
Death 2%

Assume for a sec that 1% haste = 1% dps (even though it probably wont be that good) and assume say 15% haste from gear (plus another 8% from 25m raid buffs).

Pain at 15% of total output times 1.23 (or 15+8) equals 18.5% for a gain to total dps of 3.5%.

The math isn't quite as clean as this, but it's a good approximation.

This will have a greater affect on multidot movement fights, however, the problem for shadow priests is that Mind Flay makes up the biggest portion of our damage on single target fights.

And Mind Flay scales terribly with haste. Or more correctly it scales fine, but you only notice power gains at haste rating thresholds that allow you to squeeze in an additional tic of Flay in between Mind Blasts.

So you gain a tic at each haste rating threshold 280, 720, 1030, 1280, etc but the extra haste between any two thresholds is unused.

There's no way around this with the tools the shadow priest currently has available, hence the proposed CATA nuke for shadow priests.

The better option imho, is to not have haste affect any of our channeled spells or dots, instead only affecting cast times on spells like Mind Blast and VT.

Increase the cooldown time of Mind Blast by .5 seconds, and increase damage and cost accordingly.

And then give us a straight haste rating to spellpower conversion built into shadowform.

No brand new nuke would be necessary even though we'd still get no real benefit from heroism or other spell casting speed buffs.

[doomchken]

Rejuvenation though? Eh... Druids would need to have haste working on Lifebloom and Wild Growth to start contemplating taking haste gear. It would be a slight throughput gain, but not compared to their other healing glyphs.

y
Um lol no other heal touches teh amount of healing rejuv does to the raid the only reason druids care at all if they get crit or haste now is because we actually use nourish and our T9 set bonus but trust me in 3.3 it will be all about haste so look for 1 second cast nourish again because druids will be back up to 600+ haste. BTW it is obvious you don't have a druid healer because the Wild Growth glyph barely matters since WG is so glitchy, Swiftmend is amazing and i love the nourish one so there is 1 spot open definitly worth increasing the speed of our top heal that we spam all over the place.

[Deaths]

corruption eh? nice... it never needs refreshing as affliction anyways

[Worshaka]

I realise it's experimental but I'd still like to hear that Vampiric Touch and Devouring Plague are getting a haste buff before 3.3 hits though... I doubt it will happen.

Won't happen for VT, it's already OP with it's current coeffecient... if they do add haste scaling to VT expect the coeffecient to be reduced back to the norm.

I would think at this stage they will see how it plays out on SW:P and then perhaps introduce it in a more comprehensive way which is pretty much in line with what was stated in the blue.

[KresnikHellfire]

Won't happen for VT, it's already OP with it's current coeffecient... if they do add haste scaling to VT expect the coeffecient to be reduced back to the norm.

I would think at this stage they will see how it plays out on SW:P and then perhaps introduce it in a more comprehensive way which is pretty much in line with what was stated in the blue.

Not to brag, but Ghostcrawler has posted (since I last posted):

"We might eventually apply it to more dots and hots if we (and you) think it's a good change. We feel like we may need a patch or two to make this conclusion though.

We might apply it to more dots and hots originally, especially DP and VT."

(taken from http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...&pageNo=10#183)

[622killer89]

Yay, now they just need to nerf our dmg so that we arent completely OP in Naxx gear levels