Envenom or Rupture.

[Infs]

I recently specced Muti pve on my alt rogue, now I was wondering if i should use Envenom or Rupture, since even with my not that great gear my Envenom crits for shitloads.
Also, do I still gem agility?

Sorry if this question has been asked before, i've looked for it but could only find answers to the question if Rupture > Eviscerate.

[Pikapika]

You should be using envenom and rupture. Open with garrote, HfB, SnD, mut if ruthlessness didn't proc, envenom, mut twice, rupture, mut twice, envenom. Repeat those last 4 steps and you're pretty much golden, keeping HfB up of course.

[Einari]

yes gem agility, arp is crap for muti since poison dmg is so high

[monkepro]

Unless you have the 4P T8.5 rupture bonus dont rupture unless you needa keep HFB up (considering there isnt a feral druid, Arms warrior or hunter in the group for bleeds) My 5 point envenoms hit for around 13-14k while without the T8.5 rupture bonus the whole duration of your rupture with glyphs and talents ticks for about 4-5k total duration. so its fairly useless without the crit modifier which can make it worth while to toss 1 up every once in a while because of the 50%crit base and with the glyphs i can usually see about 2.4k rupture crits and considering its a 50%crit chance your rupture dmg is doubled ish (more situational than anything) there full duration will be 10k or a little higher so its more hit than miss. thats what ive found out and since i banked my 4P t8.5 i just evenom spam. and I'm always easily 1st dps or top 3

[Annoying]

Unless you have the 4P T8.5 rupture bonus dont rupture unless you needa keep HFB up (considering there isnt a feral druid, Arms warrior or hunter in the group for bleeds) My 5 point envenoms hit for around 13-14k while without the T8.5 rupture bonus the whole duration of your rupture with glyphs and talents ticks for about 4-5k total duration. so its fairly useless without the crit modifier which can make it worth while to toss 1 up every once in a while because of the 50%crit base and with the glyphs i can usually see about 2.4k rupture crits and considering its a 50%crit chance your rupture dmg is doubled ish (more situational than anything) there full duration will be 10k or a little higher so its more hit than miss. thats what ive found out and since i banked my 4P t8.5 i just evenom spam. and I'm always easily 1st dps or top 3

Complete lies and bad advice. Rupture does almost as much damage as envenom, and costs 10 less energy, making it higher damage per energy than any other finisher. You should be keeping rupture up as close to 100% as you can, and envenoming when rupture's duration is solid.

[jcizzle]

1st of all, you should alternate envenoms and ruptures unless the fight doesnt last 13 seconds, then you should just envenom. 2nd, watch and learn http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqgXIfoVkGY&feature=fvw

[Taraxacum]

Previously I would of always agreed with whats been written above, however with the recent changes to Envenom/Master Poisoner, much to my hatred, this is not quite true any more from my experiece. (That video link is quite old!)

IF you are on a non moving fight with a single boss (i.e. you wont loose your stack of deadly poison), envenom is better than a rupture UNLESS your ruptures can crit. I've not looked heavily into the figures yet, just seen it happen all the time. This is the reason why they dropped the envenom glyph when WotLK came out, for the simple reason it was to powerful and made hi damage in mutilate specs a case of nearly useing just 2 buttons.

Get HfB up > Mutilate to 4-5CPs > Envenom > Mutilte to 4-5CPs > Envenom . . . . rely on someone else to get a bleed on the target (not difficult in a 25 man) > HfB . . . .

It is seriouly boring and just shows how little actual thought/playtesting has been done to try and give Mutilate a bit of extra damage now that the T9 gear stacks ArmPen which is near useless for us.

[ant1pathy]

Quit posting wrong information.

Rupture takes priority over Envenom unless you need to refresh SnD.

The reason they removed the glyph was because of HaT Rogues. I remember quite a few suggestions to put the effect on a deep Assassination talent instead, and here we are.

[whitey235]

So is there a real answer here?

If you are mut and are wear almost all t9, do should u still use rupture or just get SnD going then enevon the whole time? Of course keep HfB up.

Or do you keep rupture going?

[Sarcasm]

The rule for all rogues, unless you are ArP capped combat, is Slice and Dice > Rupture > Envenom/Evisc.

[Mercury0021]

if you want a real answer plug both into a spreadsheet and see which one wins.

[Kikazz]

if ya didnt get cut to the chase... dont be fail and get it.


Garrote, HFB, muti Slice and dice muti muti envenom(due to recent patch this mov no longer uses your poison charges yet still gives you a higher chance to apply it). then just rotate between envenom and muti when hfb is getting low switch out envenom for a rupture and HFB then repate the envenom and muti if you get this down it is literally a 2 button rotation... on single targets easy to pull 3.9k dps in Ilvl200 gear..

[Ultralisk]

Complete lies and bad advice. Rupture does almost as much damage as envenom, and costs 10 less energy, making it higher damage per energy than any other finisher. You should be keeping rupture up as close to 100% as you can, and envenoming when rupture's duration is solid.

This is true.

Rupture does (1736 + 0.3 * AP) base damage.
Envenom does (1075 + AP * 0.45) base damage.

Rupture has an overall damage modifier of +69% (30% Blood Spatter, 30% Trauma Debuff).
Envenom has an overall damage modifier of +80% (20% Vile Poisons, 50% buffed crit chance)

After damage modifier / buffs:
Rupture does (2934 + 0.51 AP) damage.
Envenom does (1935 + 0.81 AP) damage.

Obviously, Envenom outscales Rupture, but Rupture has a higher static damage component. The crossover point is 3330AP. Any time you have more than 3330AP, will cause more damage than using Rupture. But wait! It's not quite this simple, because Envenom costs more energy and you'll probably be somewhat energy constrained.

Rupture costs 25 energy and so does (117.4 + 0.0204 AP) damage per energy.
Envenom costs 35 energy and so does (55.29 + 0.0231 AP) damage per energy.

Again, Envenom outscales Rupture. But this time, the AP required for Envenom to outperform Rupture on a damage-per-energy basis is 23003AP. This is more than twice what raiding rogues are hitting today. And I haven't included the extra energy efficiency of Rupture due to either Glyph of Rupture or the 4pc T8 bonus (which we'll be moving away from due to the raw stats on T10 even if T9 wasn't a big upgrade).

Of course, if there's no trauma debuff available, rupture loses 30% of its damage. So the figures are a bit more lenient - if you have more than 4666AP, or your target will die within 15 seconds, Envenom always wins.

So there you go. In a raid environment with a trauma debuff up, always prioritise rupture over envenom unless you have less than 20 seconds left on the fight, or you have more than 23000AP, which you don't. If there's no trauma debuff, just use Envenom.

[Voij]

This is true.

Rupture does (1736 + 0.3 * AP) base damage.
Envenom does (1075 + AP * 0.45) base damage.

Rupture has an overall damage modifier of +69% (30% Blood Spatter, 30% Trauma Debuff).
Envenom has an overall damage modifier of +80% (20% Vile Poisons, 50% buffed crit chance)

After damage modifier / buffs:
Rupture does (2934 + 0.51 AP) damage.
Envenom does (1935 + 0.81 AP) damage.

Obviously, Envenom outscales Rupture, but Rupture has a higher static damage component. The crossover point is 3330AP. Any time you have more than 3330AP, will cause more damage than using Rupture. But wait! It's not quite this simple, because Envenom costs more energy and you'll probably be somewhat energy constrained.

Rupture costs 25 energy and so does (117.4 + 0.0204 AP) damage per energy.
Envenom costs 35 energy and so does (55.29 + 0.0231 AP) damage per energy.

Again, Envenom outscales Rupture. But this time, the AP required for Envenom to outperform Rupture on a damage-per-energy basis is 23003AP. This is more than twice what raiding rogues are hitting today. And I haven't included the extra energy efficiency of Rupture due to either Glyph of Rupture or the 4pc T8 bonus (which we'll be moving away from due to the raw stats on T10 even if T9 wasn't a big upgrade).

Of course, if there's no trauma debuff available, rupture loses 30% of its damage. So the figures are a bit more lenient - if you have more than 4666AP, or your target will die within 15 seconds, Envenom always wins.

So there you go. In a raid environment with a trauma debuff up, always prioritise rupture over envenom unless you have less than 20 seconds left on the fight, or you have more than 23000AP, which you don't. If there's no trauma debuff, just use Envenom.

You're missing the Envenom-Buff which increases your procchance with IP.

I have no math to support this, but I think Envenom and Rupture are either on par, or Envenom is better then Rupture.

[Executia]

Nice to see how everyone forgots about the fact that

1. Envenom scales with the 13% spelldmg debuff.
2. With envenom spam , the uptime of the buff is 100% , which produces shitloads of nature damage , which AGAIN scales with AP and the spelldmg debuff.

Drop Rupture if

1. No 30% bleed debuff is available
2. you're running full t9 and ilvl232-245
3. you don't have alot of crit combined with 4pct8


With my gear ( 3xt9,5 rest random ilvl232-245 ) I definately pull out alot more DPS with keeping up the envenom buff.

[Ultralisk]

You're missing the Envenom-Buff which increases your procchance with IP.

I have no math to support this, but I think Envenom and Rupture are either on par, or Envenom is better then Rupture.

Damn, I knew I was missing *something*. I know that anecdotally, I jump from around 3k to around 4k in heroics by dropping rupture, but that's probably largely due to mobs dying within 10 seconds. Moar theorycraftz coming. :P

[Jerboa]

Once you outgear the 4pt8 bonus, switch to 51/13/7 and use ruptureless cycles. Envenom buff, plus the fact that rupture will no longer crit, make envenom better. Remember to drop the 2 points from Blood Spatter into Quick Recovery, it's very useful for healers and you, especially in TotC 25 heroic.

[Ultralisk]

I would suspect that our marsupial friend is correct.

Assume that in a non-Rupture cycle, the Envenom buff is always up, and assume a 1.8 MH and 1.4 OH with ~50% overall haste including SnD. Call it a conservative 0.83 MH and 1.07 OH swings/second. Assume swapping in an OH with Deadly on it every 12sec to refresh Deadly stacks, but otherwise running an OH with IP.

According to a comment on wowhead (yep, quality references here :P ) a 1.8 weapon has a 38.5% proc chance and a 1.4 weapon has a 30% proc chance with instant poison and Improved Poisons. Now, there're two ways in which this could go, depending on what the wording on the Envenom buff really means. It says "75% increased frequency of applying Instant Poison". That could either mean "increases the proc chance by 75%" or "increases the proc RATE by 75%". In the first case, that 38.5% proc chance would increase to 67%. If it's the second, then the proc chance would be 100% for both main and offhands.

Because I'm home from work and want to actually play the game instead of theorycrafting, I'll just do a test case of a rogue with 5k AP, a quite reasonable figure for a 10man ToC raid.

Rupture will add (2934 + 0.51 * 5000) = 5485 damage over 16 seconds = 342.8 dps.

If it's the first case, the Envenom buff boosts this proc rate to 100% for both, giving an 'extra' IP proc on 61.5% of mainhand swings and 70% of offhand swings. This would give 0.51 MH and 0.749 OH procs a second from the Envenom buff, adding 1.259 * (300 + 0.1 * AP) = (377.7 + 0.126 * AP) = 1008 DPS.

The Envenom buff BY ITSELF does 3 times the DPS that Rupture does for a 5k rogue.

If it's the second case then the Envenom buff only boosts the proc rate by 28.875% MH and 22.5% OH, and hence 0.24 MH and 0.241 OH, adding 0.48 * (300 + 0.1 * AP) = 384.6 DPS, still a modest gain and with the extra Envenom damage 'for free'. Still a solid win for Envenom.

Remember that we're still ignoring the sizable direct damage component, and the 13% spell damage debuff that Executia mentioned. Ima go hit up a target dummy and test proc rates with a pair of white 1.0-speed daggers and see which case it is. If it really does bump your proc rate to 100%... time to get the LPCs out of the bank?

Edit: From the quick tests I did, it would appear that the Envenom buff increases your PPM by 75%, not your proc chance. It certainly wasn't proccing IP every swing with the buff up. Test method: IP MH, Deadly OH, get 5 stacks of Deadly, get full duration SnD, unequip OH, Envenom. Watch combat log while buff is up. It seemed to be proccing around half of the time which is right in line with the expected 50% all-up proc rate for a 1.3 weapon.

[Foquinha]

Rupture = Skill for outdated noobs that think just because it costs 10 less energy is better

Envenon = The best to use, only if u have 4pc t8.5 u should use rupture but if u have 4 pcs t8.5 ur weak man u should get more gears.

Never use a 5 points envenon, always on 3 or 4 combo points. The thing is, to have the maximum time with the envenon debuff on, it makes crazy procs with ur IP.

Forget about the Blood Spatter Talent, go for another, for myself ive putted on Quick Recovery since my expertise is low and it helps me on the dodges that sometimes happens to me.

Forget about Glyph of Rupture, go for another, ive putted Glyph of Tricks of the Trade, it gives 4 more seconds of aggro missdirected and damage forthe target, BIG boost for spanking and assisting

As i said, Rupture is for noobs nowadays (its not good damage then envenon, and its only good with 4 pcs t8.5, that makes u a noob if u still didnt replace the 4 pcs t8.5 two months after the patch)

[Annoying]

Rupture = Skill for outdated noobs that think just because it costs 10 less energy is better

Apparently you missed the part where 10 less energy makes it cost 70% of what envenom costs. My spreadsheet shows my bleed dps = 579.6, and envenom (and it's buff) yield 766.3.
So envenom's higher, I should only use it right? Wrong. It's not about the DPS when it comes to what ability to use, it comes to DPE. Rupture DPE = 579.6/25 = 23.184. Envenom DPE = 766.3/35 = 21.894. Rupture still does more DPE in my mutilate gear (which is quickly approaching BiS.)