Nerfs inc soon for shadow

[Yon]

I love that someone said Worshaka showed class though... in a post where she insulted over 10 million people. Yeah, hats off indeed for bad logic and inflammatory posts.

Just goes to show that you can go a long way by writing eloquent posts.

So if I understand Worshaka's argument correctly now, it's that in his personal experience, he is doing good dps compared to the rest of his guild because he doesn't care as much about dps meters and chooses to focus more on avoiding things that will kill ya in boss encounters. An interesting proposition, but I fail to see how that has anything to do with shadowpriest issues. Seems it has everything to do with your personal playstyle.

Furthermore, you can be quite aware of your surroundings and dps to your full potential at the same time. If we have to bring up anecdotal evidence, I'm not doing too bad in my guild either. I usually place quite high in any fight that requires some complexity, and I'm not dying either.

I also notice that even though I gear up faster than most others in my guild, I'm falling more and more behind them in terms of dps. You may argue that it should be enough to address scaling problems in later expansions, maybe by increasing some spell's damage by x% or some other temporary fix.

It is my firm belief, however, that scaling problems should be nipped in the bud as soon as possible. It's really quite disheartening when you see every new piece of gear dropping in an instance and know that it would be a much larger upgrade for the mage beside you.

No. Making dots scale with haste is the best thing that's happened to us in quite a while. I don't know if it's enough yet, but it's certainly a big step in the right direction. Better scaling!

[Mewseph]

There is absolutely nothing that shadow priest brings to raid as utility. Maybe boomkins and elemental shamans are as low as we are, but they are at least providing something to raid.

I laughed when I read this.
Boomkins (I play one) bring a hugely disproportionate amount of buffs/debuffs to the raid comparatively to any other spec in the current implementation of the game. It's ridiculous when most other specs bring 1-2, then their class another 1-2.
Lemme list em: Spec; +5% spell crit, +13% spell damage, +3% spell hit, +3% haste, +3% miss, 5% armour penetration + standard druid crap.

But I digress; Spriests need a leg up more than any other spec right now, Elemental just got theirs which brought them up to competing with other mutli-role classes, Rets could do with a decent boost and Boomkins are enjoying being top of the pack hybrids (Mostly due to OP tier bonuses... screw you T8), but could use some lovin' and a smaller reliance on procs to be competitive.

On the note of anecdotal evidence; It's specious. Just because you appear to be doing well, doesn't mean you are comparatively in the scope of the whole (All of WoW). A good example is pugs, I can dominate in pugs, easily top or come 2-3 in a standard 25VoA. Guild run? Easily 8th and below. Now take my guilds DPS and compare them to another, outdone again (If they're more "Hardcore") where it would place me even lower if I were to compete with them. It's all relative.

[Matafact]

I think you people have it all wrong here, though i may not pump out 6k+ dps my damage done as a spriest is still amazing, you people need to stop comparing actual dps to actual damage, they are completely different.

As for the buff, who doesn't like getting a buff, instead of qqing about a buff, they could just nerf everyone to be at the shadowpriest level right now.

[Weena]

I think you people have it all wrong here, though i may not pump out 6k+ dps my damage done as a spriest is still amazing, you people need to stop comparing actual dps to actual damage, they are completely different.

DPS or Damage done, we're still at the bottom

[Direshadow]

I think you people have it all wrong here, though i may not pump out 6k+ dps my damage done as a spriest is still amazing, you people need to stop comparing actual dps to actual damage, they are completely different.

As for the buff, who doesn't like getting a buff, instead of qqing about a buff, they could just nerf everyone to be at the shadowpriest level right now.

First off, I really doubt you can pull off 6K dps like it was easy breezy. You're most likely seeing AOE damage or multi-dotting damage, which isn't needed for a lot of boss fights.

Secondly, I agree that Spriests shouldn't be number 1 DPS, but as it stands now, we're to easily replaceable, no matter how good the "Player" is. This counters Ghostcrawler's epicly stupid idea of "bring the player not the class".

[Worshaka]

Just goes to show that you can go a long way by writing eloquent posts.

So if I understand Worshaka's argument correctly now, it's that in his personal experience, he is doing good dps compared to the rest of his guild because he doesn't care as much about dps meters and chooses to focus more on avoiding things that will kill ya in boss encounters. An interesting proposition, but I fail to see how that has anything to do with shadowpriest issues. Seems it has everything to do with your personal playstyle.

Furthermore, you can be quite aware of your surroundings and dps to your full potential at the same time. If we have to bring up anecdotal evidence, I'm not doing too bad in my guild either. I usually place quite high in any fight that requires some complexity, and I'm not dying either.

I also notice that even though I gear up faster than most others in my guild, I'm falling more and more behind them in terms of dps. You may argue that it should be enough to address scaling problems in later expansions, maybe by increasing some spell's damage by x% or some other temporary fix.

It is my firm belief, however, that scaling problems should be nipped in the bud as soon as possible. It's really quite disheartening when you see every new piece of gear dropping in an instance and know that it would be a much larger upgrade for the mage beside you.

No. Making dots scale with haste is the best thing that's happened to us in quite a while. I don't know if it's enough yet, but it's certainly a big step in the right direction. Better scaling!

I think the point that's been missing is that with a bit of skill and execution you can output DPS numbers (in the 3.2 environment) that aren't so much lower than what other DPS classes can achieve to cause a negative impact to your raid.

I think there is a solid argument for cutting edge guilds to say otherwise but a vast majority of the WoW community don't play in cutting edge guilds and participate in server firsts let alone world firsts.

This being the case I never thought spriest DPS was so awful as to require 'drastic action' which is what most of the spriest community has been voicing for some time. I do believe that our scaling issues may have brought us to that point in ICC but that is based on pure speculation.

The other part I wish to highlight is there is more to raiding as a DPS class than your DPS numbers. For the most part the amount of DPS you bring is trivial, in a lot of circumstances staying alive is more important which some rogues and ret pallys in my guild have trouble understanding. In a lot of circumstances tuning extra DPS is an easy problem to solve, keeping people alive is much more difficult.

So yes I think some buffs were required for the next Teir of content but I don't believe the garbage most spriests go on with about what's been released so far. Sure our DPS is somewhat lower than some clasess in particular but so what. We still contribute, we don't prevent content being cleared, we can still participate effectively.

[nanondorf]

spoke out of my soul!!!

thumbs up for Worshaka

[Slicewrists]

i reckon the reason why you probz do more dps is the fact you either have a brain or dont panic on new content like so many people do and if you do our dps doesnt suffer as much as most other classes do when we start running around like headless *&^@'s. Due to dots making up a major part of our dps, also could be like my guild where im competive but on fights that even if the stars align raid buffed tipping 6k is a effort on a fight that adds no dps extras, Where a rogue can pump away and/or hunter and do like 6k+ plus without trying that much in lesser gear

[Yon]

Sure our DPS is somewhat lower than some clasess in particular but so what. We still contribute, we don't prevent content being cleared, we can still participate effectively.

I get your point that just because shadowpriest dps is slightly lower, that's not the biggest factor standing in the way of clearing new content for non-top edge guilds. Most of the times it's people dying, people playing their class suboptimally or otherwise making flat-out mistakes.

But you can't always look at the ideal situation, because that's rarely what we face in-game. For example, if 25 people are alive and playing well on Anub25 heroic you'll most likely not have any trouble reaching phase 3 before the 3rd Burrow -- but in most guilds, especially non-top edge guilds, things won't proceed 100% smoothly. Maybe one guy died earlier in the encounter, maybe 1 add was out of AoE range for 5 seconds too long and didn't go down in time or any number of other suboptimal situations. Then would it have been a kill if you brought someone that did a lot more damage than you?

The above is just an example and I know many shadowpriests, me included, do well on Anub25hc. But my point is that the generally lower dps of shadowpriests does pose a problem, not only for the top edge guilds, but for every guild, every time things don't go 100% according to plan but when that extra little bit of dps would have helped. It's not easy to discern when that situation occurs, though. Since if you had the 8k dps mage take down the mob a few seconds earlier than the 6k dps shadowpriest would have, maybe the tank wouldn't have died. What if, what if, what if... it's impossible to know. But everyone should agree that extra dps helps compensate for the inevitable mistakes, large or small, that face guilds in every raid and every boss try.

So my bottom line is: indeed, having a shadowpriest doesn't automatically prevent you from clearing content, but it's not a black and white situation. Rather it's a gradual thing where having someone who does significantly more dps than a shadowpriest will be more beneficial to the raid and raise the chances of success.

You'll probably say that you don't consider the lower dps of shadowpriests to be significant enough to warrant the QQ, so my above block of text may be for nothing. :P But I do think it's significantly lower already and as you say it would've only gotten worse and worse due to the poor scaling and you would maybe have changed your mind in ICC.

I don't see why Blizzard should wait until scaling problems get out of hand, though. I know it's hard to balance classes and you can't make everyone scale exactly the same. But aside from the obvious dps differences between specs that scale well and those who don't, I think there's also the issue of 'fun'. Face it, gearing up is fun regardless of how you try to rationalize it. But it's not as fun to gear up when you are progressively getting worse than your guildmates -- and you can see the effects first-hand. It's almost as if you're not gearing up at all, but rather gearing down. We've been plagued by that since TBC (for some, even earlier), and I do think it's about time it changes. Damn, that was long.

[Worshaka]

I actually think the most compelling argument for an increase in spriest DPS is tied to a blue that said they were happy that Feral DPS had a high pay off for such a complex rotation.

That's not to say spriest DPS is as hard as Feral DPS (it's not), but it is rather complex and difficult to execute. To that end if they are happy to giver Feral Druids a high DPS ability as a pay off then why not shadow? They also said they were reluctant to nerf Feral DPS too much because they were concerned with the numbers mediocre players would be able to output... again perhaps a lot of spriest DPS issues are tied with medicore players finding it too difficult to output a decent number.

I think that makes a solid argument for an increase in possible DPS... far more compelling than a lot of garbage I see.

[Direshadow]

Well our setup is pretty complex.... but after we get going, it's only a matter of mind blasting whenever it's up, and refreshing our dots at the right times.


It's usually why I hate trash or weak bosses so much. By the time I really get going, the mob is already dead, lol.

[Worshaka]

Well our setup is pretty complex.... but after we get going, it's only a matter of mind blasting whenever it's up, and refreshing our dots at the right times.


It's usually why I hate trash or weak bosses so much. By the time I really get going, the mob is already dead, lol.

It sounds easy to simply MB and refresh DoTs at the right time but executing that is quite a bit harder than it sounds.

And I totally agree that with low health targets we have no viable strategy to provide good damage. I think that is an inherit weakeness that could use far more work than some of the QQ that's taken place as well. I want a good burst option as well as a sustained DPS option so I can contribute with add switching and the like and not rely on multi dot being effective.

[Myzrael]

Well our setup is pretty complex.... but after we get going, it's only a matter of mind blasting whenever it's up, and refreshing our dots at the right times.


It's usually why I hate trash or weak bosses so much. By the time I really get going, the mob is already dead, lol.

Aka we're lacking burst damage. Dots scaling with haste does improve our burst slightly. I'm really curious to see how good it will scale with Heroism.
In my guild there aren't many good casters. I can already predict a lot of QQ once ICC comes out and I stomp them on damage, just cause they're performing poorly, not cause my class got buffed "too much".

[Direshadow]

Maybe I've just been playing a Shadow Priest for to damned long. While I think my rotation and setup are easy, shmeasy, the moment I try out my hunter, I just get all weirded out and find myself wanting to go back to my spriest.

More and more though I'm starting to think that we need a burst mechanic... there have been to many times where even in PVP, my target is at like.... 2% health, and I just don't have anything BIG to throw at him and finish him off. I mean, mind blast is usually what got him so low in the first place, so that's on cooldown. O_o

[Worshaka]

Maybe I've just been playing a Shadow Priest for to damned long. While I think my rotation and setup are easy, shmeasy, the moment I try out my hunter, I just get all weirded out and find myself wanting to go back to my spriest.

More and more though I'm starting to think that we need a burst mechanic... there have been to many times where even in PVP, my target is at like.... 2% health, and I just don't have anything BIG to throw at him and finish him off. I mean, mind blast is usually what got him so low in the first place, so that's on cooldown. O_o

Call me crazy here but SW?

I get what you mean however... I think that you don't really explain the problem though. Our lack of burst means we can't offensively pressure opponents to acting defensively. We have to use so much time to setup damage that a burst option used on use completely ties up our time and we don't spend any time on offense (so to speak).

If we try to burst when they are at full health to get them to act defensively we use SW that invokes a 12sec CD and hits us for some portion of the damage it dealt.

It's this structure that makes us bad in PvP, we lack the control to manage our slow damage and without the ability to provide offensive pressure we spend our times playing defense... we might as well be disc.

[Oneleg]

So you managed to gain about 5% more dps and now you are afraid of being op?
Have you seen what the hydrid melee and pures can do?
Hybrid melee dps is very high in dps right now, they have good single target dps and crazy cleave dps. They are the ones who should live in fear of nerfs.

Sorry my enhancement shaman has no "cleave" dps to speak of. The ones that really do need a slight nerf would be feral cats...

[greysin]

I think the point that's been missing is that with a bit of skill and execution you can output DPS numbers (in the 3.2 environment) that aren't so much lower than what other DPS classes can achieve to cause a negative impact to your raid.

I think there is a solid argument for cutting edge guilds to say otherwise but a vast majority of the WoW community don't play in cutting edge guilds and participate in server firsts let alone world firsts.

This being the case I never thought spriest DPS was so awful as to require 'drastic action' which is what most of the spriest community has been voicing for some time. I do believe that our scaling issues may have brought us to that point in ICC but that is based on pure speculation.

The other part I wish to highlight is there is more to raiding as a DPS class than your DPS numbers. For the most part the amount of DPS you bring is trivial, in a lot of circumstances staying alive is more important which some rogues and ret pallys in my guild have trouble understanding. In a lot of circumstances tuning extra DPS is an easy problem to solve, keeping people alive is much more difficult.

So yes I think some buffs were required for the next Teir of content but I don't believe the garbage most spriests go on with about what's been released so far. Sure our DPS is somewhat lower than some clasess in particular but so what. We still contribute, we don't prevent content being cleared, we can still participate effectively.

you'd have to be a dumbass to not address the scaling issue that has been obvious with each and every patch. in t9 spriests are already at the back of the pack and with current mechanics, would easily take over THE last spot in a raid, between 20-30% behind the top of the dps chart.

blizz said they want to see hybrids put out no less than 95% as much dps as pures

putting out 70-80% as much is WAY too low

if you can't see how an spriest at 100% was already worse than a rogue at 90%, a feral druid at 90%, a mage at 90%, hell, every other class at 90%, then you're in denial

i can tell by your "ideals", your rants, and your spec that you want to be A SPECIAL SNOWFLAKE so you can't help but go against what is the norm. right now, the norm is an spriest in last place on the dps charts, 20-25% behind the top.

yes, there is most certainly a problem. an spriest's raid value is as low as anything has ever been in this game. if content wasn't so easy, nobody would bring spriests because they couldn't afford to. since you can do content in gear 2 tiers old, it's not as big of an issue.

and you mention rogues and ret pallies in your guild who can't stay alive, that means that YOU are possibly the best player in your guild, it doesn't mean spriests are ok


i was top 1-2 dps in my guild and we breezed through toc in crappy gear. i know i can get 100% out of my toon but i also know if i had been playing a rogue or mage i'd be doing a lot more dps and it would be that much easier.

easy content that doesn't even require that every spot be filled doesn't mean spriests are ok.

blizz said 5% difference in dps so there needs to be 5% difference, not 20%, it's as simple as that

[Worshaka]

you'd have to be a dumbass to not address the scaling issue that has been obvious with each and every patch. in t9 spriests are already at the back of the pack and with current mechanics, would easily take over THE last spot in a raid, between 20-30% behind the top of the dps chart.

Not sure you read my posts... I said that I was top 5 in my guild in progression raids. I have achieved 6.3K DPS, that did involve a small amount of multi dotting but I have reached 6K on pure single target. Yes I can be well behind a feral druid but not by 20 or 30%

blizz said they want to see hybrids put out no less than 95% as much dps as pures

Actually Blizzard have gone to extroidary steps to avoid placing a number for the very reason people like yourself will try to use it as evidence they are failing by throwing the number back at them whenever you get teh chance. There is no number.

putting out 70-80% as much is WAY too low

if you can't see how an spriest at 100% was already worse than a rogue at 90%, a feral druid at 90%, a mage at 90%, hell, every other class at 90%, then you're in denial

i can tell by your "ideals", your rants, and your spec that you want to be A SPECIAL SNOWFLAKE so you can't help but go against what is the norm. right now, the norm is an spriest in last place on the dps charts, 20-25% behind the top.

yes, there is most certainly a problem. an spriest's raid value is as low as anything has ever been in this game. if content wasn't so easy, nobody would bring spriests because they couldn't afford to. since you can do content in gear 2 tiers old, it's not as big of an issue.

Dont agree with you, i've already posted a combat log of a spriest in 3.2 mechanics doing 7.2K dps... fact is most spriests play poorly. In your personal experience the numbers you quote might be accurate but just because you experience those numbers doesnt mean those are the max possible numbers. Fact is there are far better spriests than you and there are far better spriest than me. I can't reach 7K yet i've seen logs of spriests who have. I allow room for the fact I'm not the best in the world, a lot of other players think their numbers are simlar to the world best.
and you mention rogues and ret pallies in your guild who can't stay alive, that means that YOU are possibly the best player in your guild, it doesn't mean spriests are ok


i was top 1-2 dps in my guild and we breezed through toc in crappy gear. i know i can get 100% out of my toon but i also know if i had been playing a rogue or mage i'd be doing a lot more dps and it would be that much easier.

easy content that doesn't even require that every spot be filled doesn't mean spriests are ok.

blizz said 5% difference in dps so there needs to be 5% difference, not 20%, it's as simple as that
[/quote]

[Myzrael]

Not sure you read my posts... I said that I was top 5 in my guild in progression raids. I have achieved 6.3K DPS, that did involve a small amount of multi dotting but I have reached 6K on pure single target. Yes I can be well behind a feral druid but not by 20 or 30%

I've done 6k single target as well, but our feral does 8.5k while also providing feral aura, rebirth and occasional tanking for several secs, if some mistake happens, until our "real" tank gets ressed. Feral is also a hybrid, right? Why do they get better treatment than us?

[Matafact]

First off, I really doubt you can pull off 6K dps like it was easy breezy. You're most likely seeing AOE damage or multi-dotting damage, which isn't needed for a lot of boss fights.

Secondly, I agree that Spriests shouldn't be number 1 DPS, but as it stands now, we're to easily replaceable, no matter how good the "Player" is. This counters Ghostcrawler's epicly stupid idea of "bring the player not the class".

If you would look at actual damage done compared to others, I am always top 7ish, If your not then you are not bringing the player but the class. You may be able to read everything there is to know about spriests but if you just suck with all that know how, you still just suck.

So ghostcrawler was right, bring the player not the class, people are so worried about comparing something to someone else's ability, if it is such a huge deal then go play that class.