Need a spec sheet for enchancement pvp

[Fornaw]

7% spell hit is required, anyone who says otherwise is giving bad information. Since 3.0.8 racials that grant additional chance to be missed by certain spell schools can be mitigated by gaining additional chance to hit. So unless you feel like missing a purge/windshear/hex on the next druid (or any Belf/Nelf/Tauren) you face, keep going to 7% spell hit.

[Deleted]

7% spell hit is required, anyone who says otherwise is giving bad information. Since 3.0.8 racials that grant additional chance to be missed by certain spell schools can be mitigated by gaining additional chance to hit. So unless you feel like missing a purge/windshear/hex on the next druid (or any Belf/Nelf/Tauren) you face, keep going to 7% spell hit.

cough, arcane mage, cough

[meliancill]

7% spell hit is required, anyone who says otherwise is giving bad information. Since 3.0.8 racials that grant additional chance to be missed by certain spell schools can be mitigated by gaining additional chance to hit. So unless you feel like missing a purge/windshear/hex on the next druid (or any Belf/Nelf/Tauren) you face, keep going to 7% spell hit.

you sir are giving bad information. imo if you have no idea what you are talking about, yes some classes and some specs have ( reduice chance to be hit by x ) tallents. however do not gem, do not gear, and do not enchant above 5%. the biggest thing about pvp is geting the best average of the stats you can get.


to much resil will hurt you
to much stam will hurt you
to much ap will hurt you
to much crit will hurt you
to much hit will hurt you

yes you can stack any of those stats to insane numbers if you want to. but doing so will cause the others to drop to low, geting 7% hit for at best 30% of the classes/specs that play this game will hurt you agenst the other 70%...

pvp is a numbers game, just like raiding. you have an optimal and a minimal, this means that you are gearing to be the best posible agenst the majority of things / players you will fight.

example. you dont see tanks stacking insane deffense ratings to try and hit the thorium crit cap? no you dont, doing that would drop the other stats to low to be able to live threw that fight.

the same thing comes into play in pvp. yes you can stack 7% hit for those classes, however doing that will drop your damage, crit, resil, and stam low enough that you might as well stick pve gear on. dont come in here laying down your opinions as if its fact and you are right and everyone els is wrong. any time i post a comment i give evidance to back my comment up, if for some reason i am proven wrong i look at it myself and re-work my information to make it correct. you did no such thing in your post, so if you actualy want anyone to take you seriously please place some facts so we can see for our self.

Don't devalue hit. Hit might be our best pvp stat. Remember with dual wield we still have a 24% chance to miss with either weapon. Having more white hits land is by far a better use of stat points. More white means more maelstrom and more chance for WF and Frostbrand to proc.

The problem with stacking crit is resil devalues it twice. It drops the chance for a crit to happen and it drops the damage the crit does once it does land.

as for this your point is valid however off hand hit is imposible to get close enough in pvp gear even with tallents to make it worth doing. even with the 6% hit you get from the tallent your off hand will still miss 18% of the time. while it will do nothing at all for your main hand weapon, since that was already caped 6% ago.

you combine the fact that hit in pvp is hard to get with the proper pvp gear and on top of that only ups the damage you do from a weapon that at best deals 50% of its damage.

if you want more maelstrom procs your better off with haste imo ( however dont do it in pvp i have yet to see it work - this is just an example ). if you wanted more maelstrom pocs haste will increse the damage from your main hand and off hand ( dps ) and up the maelstrom ( ppm ) because of the speed. but agen in pvp you just dont get the stats you need to make it viable.

[Fornaw]

you sir are giving bad information. imo if you have no idea what you are talking about, yes some classes and some specs have ( reduice chance to be hit by x ) tallents. however do not gem, do not gear, and do not enchant above 5%. the biggest thing about pvp is geting the best average of the stats you can get.


to much resil will hurt you
to much stam will hurt you
to much ap will hurt you
to much crit will hurt you
to much hit will hurt you

yes you can stack any of those stats to insane numbers if you want to. but doing so will cause the others to drop to low, geting 7% hit for at best 30% of the classes/specs that play this game will hurt you agenst the other 70%...

pvp is a numbers game, just like raiding. you have an optimal and a minimal, this means that you are gearing to be the best posible agenst the majority of things / players you will fight.

example. you dont see tanks stacking insane deffense ratings to try and hit the thorium crit cap? no you dont, doing that would drop the other stats to low to be able to live threw that fight.

the same thing comes into play in pvp. yes you can stack 7% hit for those classes, however doing that will drop your damage, crit, resil, and stam low enough that you might as well stick pve gear on. dont come in here laying down your opinions as if its fact and you are right and everyone els is wrong. any time i post a comment i give evidance to back my comment up, if for some reason i am proven wrong i look at it myself and re-work my information to make it correct. you did no such thing in your post, so if you actualy want anyone to take you seriously please place some facts so we can see for our self.


as for this your point is valid however off hand hit is imposible to get close enough in pvp gear even with tallents to make it worth doing. even with the 6% hit you get from the tallent your off hand will still miss 18% of the time. while it will do nothing at all for your main hand weapon, since that was already caped 6% ago.

you combine the fact that hit in pvp is hard to get with the proper pvp gear and on top of that only ups the damage you do from a weapon that at best deals 50% of its damage.

if you want more maelstrom procs your better off with haste imo ( however dont do it in pvp i have yet to see it work - this is just an example ). if you wanted more maelstrom pocs haste will increse the damage from your main hand and off hand ( dps ) and up the maelstrom ( ppm ) because of the speed. but agen in pvp you just dont get the stats you need to make it viable.

Can you read? I said absolutely nothing about classes or specs, I was talking about RACIALS. Three of the most popular races in the game have a reduced chance to be hit by nature spells as a racial. This includes ALL druids and ALL horde paladins.

The additional melee chance to hit will help make your specials land against Nelfs, Paladins, Frost DKs and most likely a class or two that I am forgetting. It will also increase your maelstrom charge generation by about 1.5% off white swings.

If you don't go to 7% spell hit you may as well not go to 5% spell hit, the additional chance to hit has at least some effect on all players you face, and a decent effect on about half the possible race/class combinations in game.

[meliancill]

you just dont get it do you................



an enhance shaman uses about 60% of his damage threw spells, this is true. your talking about droping 4 gem slots ( about 80 rating ) on hit gems. now look at what you waist.

if i did that on my toon i would lose.

x2 32 ap gems ( just dont have the money for the epics yet )
x1 20 resil gem
x1 16 ap 12 stam gem

you lose totel

80 ap
20 resil
120 hp

just so you can be spell caped on SOME races / classes / specs. even if 50% of class / race / spec combinations have a reduced chance to be hit by spells it dosnt mean you should gear for it.

examples

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...krock&n=Flexxi - number 2 enhance shaman in the game - 133 hit rating 5.07% spell hit

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...huzad&n=Tuvahl - number 3 enhance shaman in game - 150 hit rating 5.72% spell hit

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...Dream&n=Bolune - number 4 enhance shaman in game - 150 hit rating 5.72% spell hit

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...ius&n=Joojulol - number 5 enhance shaman in game - 100 hit rating 3.81% spell hit

i didnt put the number 1 in because when i made this post he was in pve gear.


there is a reason you are the only person i have seen try to say the hit cap is 7% for an enhance shaman.

normaly when everyone els is saying / doing one thing, and you are saying / doing another, it means your wrong and they are right. infact dont we have a place for people that insist they are right and everyone els is wrong? oh yes now i remember... look for the people in white coats they are your friends and they are here to help...

[Fornaw]

you just dont get it do you................



an enhance shaman uses about 60% of his damage threw spells, this is true. your talking about droping 4 gem slots ( about 80 rating ) on hit gems. now look at what you waist.

if i did that on my toon i would lose.

x2 32 ap gems ( just dont have the money for the epics yet )
x1 20 resil gem
x1 16 ap 12 stam gem

you lose totel

80 ap
20 resil
120 hp

just so you can be spell caped on SOME races / classes / specs. even if 50% of class / race / spec combinations have a reduced chance to be hit by spells it dosnt mean you should gear for it.

examples

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...krock&n=Flexxi - number 2 enhance shaman in the game - 133 hit rating 5.07% spell hit

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...huzad&n=Tuvahl - number 3 enhance shaman in game - 150 hit rating 5.72% spell hit

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...Dream&n=Bolune - number 4 enhance shaman in game - 150 hit rating 5.72% spell hit

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...ius&n=Joojulol - number 5 enhance shaman in game - 100 hit rating 3.81% spell hit

i didnt put the number 1 in because when i made this post he was in pve gear.


there is a reason you are the only person i have seen try to say the hit cap is 7% for an enhance shaman.

normaly when everyone els is saying / doing one thing, and you are saying / doing another, it means your wrong and they are right. infact dont we have a place for people that insist they are right and everyone els is wrong? oh yes now i remember... look for the people in white coats they are your friends and they are here to help...

Not even talking about damaging spells really, purge/wind shear/hex.

Nor was I talking about regemming, consider instead picking up an additional piece of jewelry with hit. I honestly don't care at all about some armory links, you still haven't actually given me a reason I'm wrong.

We're comparing hit to crit if we talk about swapping jewelry, or do you actually think <1% chance to crit is better than missing with your primary utility spells?

Edit: Actually 2 of the players you linked with 150 hit rating are draenai, hence they each have 6.7% spell hit (bit closer to 7% than 5% don't you think?). The last one is wearing resto gear, which explains why they aren't even spell hit capped to begin with.

So basically 2/3 of your links agree with me...

[monkeysnarf]

as for this your point is valid however off hand hit is imposible to get close enough in pvp gear even with tallents to make it worth doing. even with the 6% hit you get from the tallent your off hand will still miss 18% of the time. while it will do nothing at all for your main hand weapon, since that was already caped 6% ago.

you combine the fact that hit in pvp is hard to get with the proper pvp gear and on top of that only ups the damage you do from a weapon that at best deals 50% of its damage.

if you want more maelstrom procs your better off with haste imo ( however dont do it in pvp i have yet to see it work - this is just an example ). if you wanted more maelstrom pocs haste will increse the damage from your main hand and off hand ( dps ) and up the maelstrom ( ppm ) because of the speed. but agen in pvp you just dont get the stats you need to make it viable.

Dual wielding increases your chance to miss, fighting same level target, by 24% for your main hand and 24% for your offhand, hence dual wielding increases your chance to miss with both hands by 24%.

On same level target, spell hit cap is 4% (105 +hit) and yellow hit cap is 5% (164 +hit).

I was saying that for pvp, point for point, after 164 +hit, hit is still a better stat than crit if you are a dual wielding enhance shaman. More landed hits = more maelstrom charges. Resil disproportionately devalues crit because it lowers the chance to crit and lowers the amount of damage that the crit does by more than the amount of damage resil lowers everything else.

Even still, in full relentless we’re not talking about “stacking” hit. Neck, Cloak and Ring can all give 50 hit each. Yellow gems in Shoulders, Chest and boots can all be socketed with 20ap 10hit gems. So unless you use a hit trinket, that’s still only 180 +hit.

If you are saying that the mechanics of hit, for dual wielding is different for pvp versus pve, please post a link.

[Fornaw]

After reading that last one I double checked, I had thought base chance to miss with spells was the same as base chance to miss with melee specials. I was wrong.

5% spell hit will spell hit cap you against most Belfs
6% spell hit will spell hit cap you against most Nelfs/Tauren

At least 6% is what you should be aiming for.

And in regards to the DW part you are entirely correct, MH and OH additional chance to miss are exactly the same while DWing. End game PvE the difference between hit and crit is negligible. End game PvP, from a strictly DPS standpoint, should be exactly the same, except that additional chance to hit is massively better against certain classes and races than additional crit.

[meliancill]

yes you do miss however in pvp you only want to cap specials / spells. im not goint to play around with complicated math and linkes to several sites giving information about this since i had to go in a few min.


basicly this is how it works... if you do that with hit and aim for the most posible yes you will get more white hits / fb procs. this is true. however with the way windfury works that wont give more windfury procs..


basicly it works like this

2.6 speed weapon

2.0 with flurry

0.0 hit - windfury
2.0 miss - no windury
4.0 hit - windfury


or you get as much hit as posible

0.0 hit - windfury
2.0 hit - no windfury
4.0 hit - windfury

as you can see with how windfury works geting more hits wont realy up your chance to get windfury pocs. while yes you will see more of them because your more likely to get less misses in a row it wont realy be a noticable diffrence.

there is a reason top end pvp enhance shamans play with 5% hit and stop at that point. their are simply better tallents / gear that you can get for pvp. like i said i dont have time to go into more detale. but to be honest i dont care what you do or how you gear, i have ben playing for over 4 years, was in a top 10 raiding guild pre ulduar and quit because of time problems. now i just do pvp when i have time, so i know what im doing and i dont care what your opinion is.

[monkeysnarf]

Meliancill you don't know what you're talking about. Who is talking about WF? How did WF get brought up in a conversation about hit? Plus you're just wrong. Who is running WF/WF?

Honestly you should probably quit posting. Every time you post something it's like you only read the first post of a 240 page EJ thread and now you think you know what you're talking about. On top of that it's like you don't have the mathematical/cognitive skills to figure the stuff out for yourself anyway.

For enhance shaman there is clear BiS gear for pvp for almost every slot. It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to figure out the very few combinations of gear and corresponding levels of hit and crit.

If you want to discuss gem/enchants and talents there would be no point unless we talked about team make up and strat.

[meliancill]

Meliancill you don't know what you're talking about. Who is talking about WF? How did WF get brought up in a conversation about hit? Plus you're just wrong. Who is running WF/WF?

were in a single one of my posts did i say a damn thing about wf/wf... i said and i will quote myself on this one

basicly this is how it works... if you do that with hit and aim for the most posible yes you will get more white hits / fb procs. this is true. however with the way windfury works that wont give more windfury procs..

i said nothing about windfury / windfury, infact i clearly said fb procs in my post. when i was talking about wf i was talking about the wf procs from the MAIN HAND. but i gues it takes some thinking on your part to figure that out. no i dont even read EJ unless i need to link it for a sorce, the information i have, and the information i am giving come from personal experiance as well as friends of mine who still play 2k+ arena, and looking at arena junkies to see what the latest trends are so i can test them myself.

beffor you post things like this, stating that some one is wrong BACK IT UP. every single post i have given information to back up my clames, you and the other person posting the same concept have yet to put a single sorce of information, or math to back it up.

when you do that i will actualy start to take your opinions with some meaning, untill then i will continue to blow them off. my personal experiance, pluss all the information i have seen says geting 6% hit is not required, and stacking hit tallents are not the best way to go in pvp.

[Fornaw]

were in a single one of my posts did i say a damn thing about wf/wf... i said and i will quote myself on this one

i said nothing about windfury / windfury, infact i clearly said fb procs in my post. when i was talking about wf i was talking about the wf procs from the MAIN HAND. but i gues it takes some thinking on your part to figure that out. no i dont even read EJ unless i need to link it for a sorce, the information i have, and the information i am giving come from personal experiance as well as friends of mine who still play 2k+ arena, and looking at arena junkies to see what the latest trends are so i can test them myself.

beffor you post things like this, stating that some one is wrong BACK IT UP. every single post i have given information to back up my clames, you and the other person posting the same concept have yet to put a single sorce of information, or math to back it up.

when you do that i will actualy start to take your opinions with some meaning, untill then i will continue to blow them off. my personal experiance, pluss all the information i have seen says geting 6% hit is not required, and stacking hit tallents are not the best way to go in pvp.

And yet, additional hit DOES give more windfury procs, you're looking at what happens 20% of the time, the other 80% of the time your next hit is eligible to windfury.

Why hit is good for dps as enh, it generates additional white dps, it generates additional FT/FB damage at nearly the same % as the additional hit picked up, it generates additional maelstrom charges at ~70% of the additional hit picked up, it generates additional windfury damage at ~50% of the additional hit picked up. In the case of PvP it also has the effect of reducing your chance to miss with crucial spells against certain races and classes.

I mean compare hit to spell pen. Spell pen is only guaranteed to be useful if there is a druid or an arcane mage on the opposing team. It may also be useful if there is a shaman or a hunter on the opposing team, though each of these classes is giving up an awful lot to give their team nature resist. In the case of druids, MotW is purgable, however you have to get through mark to purge. Now considering how situational spell pen is it seems odd that you would advocate it and downplay additional hit, which isn't situational at all, it is a dps increase against ALL targets.

[Barawr]

beffor you post things like this, stating that some one is wrong BACK IT UP. every single post i have given information to back up my clames, you and the other person posting the same concept have yet to put a single sorce of information, or math to back it up.

when you do that i will actualy start to take your opinions with some meaning, untill then i will continue to blow them off. my personal experiance, pluss all the information i have seen says geting 6% hit is not required, and stacking hit tallents are not the best way to go in pvp.

You have yet to post any REAL math or facts to back up a single thing you said. Continue with this attitude towards everyone who questions your strategy for gearing/gemming/etc. and I will assure you get a ban.

[Prinnyabomination]

Completely off topic regarding this whole argument, but I have a question.

Does the glyph of frost shock include the root time, or just the snare?

[monkeysnarf]

were in a single one of my posts did i say a damn thing about wf/wf... i said and i will quote myself on this one

You didn't. You posted a time line for a 2.6s weapon that showed that WF cannot proc back to back. This everyone already knew. You used that time line to devalue hit based on a number of invalid assumptions. The only way that your assumptions could even have the slightest bit of credibility is if you were talking about WF/WF, so I cut to the chase. I'll go into it then:

First, WF does not proc every time a swing lands outside of the 3s cooldown. WF has a 20% chance to proc, that's one in 5. So before you start in with, "because of the 3s CD the probability for WF is lower because at least 1 swing is incapable of procing so the probability must therefore be at least 1 in 6", while the statistics for that are correct, that does not mean that is how Blizzard coded their game. There is no proof that Blizzard based the WF mechanic off of real world probabilities and statistics. In fact Blizzard has said that WF still has a 20% chance to proc despite the 3s CD (that was only implemented in vanilla to prevent back to back and WF procing off itself).

Second, the only way to guarantee a loss in WF is to haste your swing time down so low that you’re hitting more than 5 times, with a weapon imbued with WF, every 3s. The amount of haste required to do that, including flurry, WF totem, Blood Lust and a haste pot (not usable in arena) is unattainable with the gear that is currently in game now, assuming you only have WF on your main hand. Assuming you have WF/WF you could haste your weapon speed down low enough to force a WF loss. What you’d need all to proc at the same time is:

Flurry = 25%
Blood Lust = 30%
WF totem = 20%
Haste pot = 500 haste = 19.8%
[item=45609] = 726 haste = 28.8%
[item=48722] = 512 haste = 20.31%
Haste from gear = 405 haste = 16.1%

This would haste your 2.6s weapons down to 1.0s so you’d swing at least 5 times (6 actually) inside 3s. (This is unreasonable in arena.)

My last post I just cut to the chase and asked who is running WF/WF instead of going into all of this, primarily because it has very little to do with the argument of hit versus other stats.