CS Glyph Change Suggestion

[ScatteredBWL]

K uhm I've been playing ret since BC came out and I've played wow since about a month into beta (rogue) so I got into a long discussion with a few other rets talking about ret pally utility. I understand the fact that we have things such as cleanse, freedom, bop, and bubble and others of the sort for utility of keeping someone else alive but isn't it about time that rets got a snare so instead of relying on a 1 minute cooldown stun that can be trinked and cleansed / freedom'd out of and our burst which is still there but not as good as it was before SoB removal and CS nerf so isn't it about time that rets got a snare? Even a minuscule snare would be such a pvp improvement. Instead of relying on our cute little 15% movement speed increase to catch our target when in reality just about every other class in the game has a talent like that AND a snare and a good snare at that. So I got to thinking and I figured the best way to make the change was to change Crusader Strike glyph to act like Heart Strike glyph. For one Crusader Strike glyph is complete trash and if you use it you should reroll secondly a snare would be almost the best thing to help improve ret pally pvp (best being a MS but I know that's asking too much). I'm just asking for a little help catching people.....I'm tired of judging justice (when I do judge justice) and chasing my target for literally 15-25 seconds, which is along time in arena, before I get in range of melee attacks....

[Arcilux]

We really don't need a snare imo. Once you get into melee range it is easy to stay. With PoJ and JoJ, you can run at 115% while your opponent is stuck at 100. Cleanse off Frost Nova's etc. Use Repentance or HoJ to close the initial gap. Getting into and staying in melee range isn't that difficult.

[ScatteredBWL]

And that's where you're wrong, first off pent and hoj is used for CC for alot of arena games. Secondly the extra 15% will keep you in range if you can get there in the first place which means pray you're not getting snared which you are in any arena game period and you can cleanse FN sure or freedom but since freedom nerf it's not that easy and if you spam cleanse the whole fight vs mage especially with judgement getting absorbed you oom in less than a minute. Then ofcourse you're going to bring up divine plea which returns 25% sure but you're burning that mana as fast as it's coming back and going oom again because judgement being absorbed. K so back to the topic if you use repentance to close a gap to an opponent instead of CCing with it then you probably shouldn't be playing ret...just saying...secondly all the spam cleanse (nova) as you said isn't as easy as it sounds especially with 5 stack winter's chill so GL with that I still stand by the fact we need that snare. It wouldn't even be that OP considering other classes in the game have movement speed increases just like ours and yet they have a mega snare too I'm just asking for like a 35 or 40%.

[zcks]

All depends on what type of enemy your facing & how good the player is, If its a decent player most classes (with the exception of a warrior by himself) have a way to counter a ret pally if done right.

One of the things I & I'm sure allot of other ret paladins are hoping they fix in cata is the fact that when were fighting a melee class it's almost no doubt that we will win but when fighting a warlock, mage, (good) hunter,(good) druid or any healer with an idea wtf there doing were just plain screwed.

Hopefully they make us a bit less op vs melee and a bit better vs ranged classes with cc.

The main problem we have is that because we have no real gap closer (just the +15% run speed when talented) we can be cc'd and our opponent can get distance then when the cc is over we have a huge gap with no way to close it. Cleanse and freedom only do so much to counter that because they have no effect on loss of control effects & freedom has the 25 second cool down, there is also the fact they both have a mana cost of over 250 which can make you go low on mana very quick if your not in range to use a judgment.

[riflemancho]

No, only if you make master's call 20 sec cd
/Hunter qq

[zcks]

In the end if they wanted to fix us for pvp they would need to
#1 give us a interrupt on a short cool down

#2 give us some form a of small snare (possibly get rid of pursuit of justice then give judgment of justice a 25% snare & give repentance a snare effect when it ends or is broken)

#3 give us some small stacking healing debuff (4-5% stacking 5 times) crusader strike would be good for this since it is such a weak attack

The problem with giving us these tools is that while it would make us better against ranged classes were we are under powered it would make us even better vs melee classes were we are balanced or op. The only real way they could solve this is to reduce the healing done by retributions instant flash of light spells by a set %. While this would end up better balancing us in pvp it would nerf us somewhat in pve.

[ScatteredBWL]

Yes but see if they didn't give us all three of those and just the snare it would drastically improve us vs range and wouldn't change much vs melee. So isntead of a MS and Kick AND a snare all I want is the snare to be perfectly honest it would allow us to catch range that put distance between us by CCing once and in the same sense wouldn't change much vs melee considering you're in range anyway. I do see what you're saying though in the sense vs other melee class we're pretty OP but MS can pretty much negate FoL insta's not fully but mostly ofcourse and then vs high resil targets you might not even get many crits or worst yet no crits WHEN IT COUNTS.

[Beatboxvin05]

I couldn't agree more with ScatteredBWL. Having to chase around ranged when anyone who has half a brain can learn to kite fairly easy is just horrible. Good Mages, and Hunters are two of the worst to go against.. freedom just gets spellstolen when vsing a mage and hunters just FD, reset and trap if u come even remotely close to them. A small snare without moving talents around, and redesigning the CS glyph would be what we need. Melee is in range of us anyway (OBV), and would only really affect a rogue trying to sprint/vanish to reset. As far as fights against healers go, well even a 20sec cd for an interupt would be nice, hell even 30sec...having to wait around for a 1min stun that can be cleansed is just boring..might as well give up the match unless the healer makes a mistake when HOJ, Rep, and silence are all up.

[Prentice]

We really don't need a snare imo. Once you get into melee range it is easy to stay. With PoJ and JoJ, you can run at 115% while your opponent is stuck at 100. Cleanse off Frost Nova's etc. Use Repentance or HoJ to close the initial gap. Getting into and staying in melee range isn't that difficult.

When, if ever, are you not snared regardless of your opponent? DKs, Shamans and Hunters will keep their AoE snare down. Rogues, Warriors, Feral Druids, Mages, and Warlocks will keep their slow debuffs up. Resto and Balance Druids will root/cyclone til they are need to Innervate.

Again, how does JoJ/PoJ combo keep us on our target?? Go ahead and say Hand of Freedom. The duration of this buff is piss. Lasts about half as long as BoP. I can make a partner immune to physical attacks for 10 seconds but I can only keep them un-snared for 6 seconds without blowing talent points on it. To get the full benefit of Hand of Freedom, you need to spend 4 talents points on it which is ridiculous. Freedom w/ Divine Purpose is best used for stuns unless you are against an opponent that doesn't have a stun.

[ScatteredBWL]

Speaking of that rogue sprinting is countered by JoJ anyway and concerning the silence that's only if you BE haha so yea.

[ScatteredBWL]

Glyph of Crusader Strike: Redesigned - Your Crusader Strike now also reduces the movement speed of your target by 50% for 10 seconds.

[Talen]

Glyph of Crusader Strike: Redesigned - Your Crusader Strike now also reduces the movement speed of your target by 50% for 10 seconds.

No.

Paladins don't need a snare. We have lots of tools to keep in range - once we get there - and a snare helps other classes as well, leadign to potential balance issues.

No...what Paladins need, especially in PvP, is a viable gap closer.

EJL

[Kaladarofsenjin]

Even though a lot of these changes would be amazing to get as a ret for pvp. You have to all know deep down inside blizz will respond with "We don't balance around 1v1."
Do ranged have an easy time getting a gap between us and maintaining it since the chain HoF nerfs? Hell yea they do. But that can be pointed as a heavily 1v1 oriented ordeal. I do threes with a rogue and we have no problem at all staying on nearly every ranged there is. And in fives we have a warrior and a death knight which is an insane amount of roots/snares and a yank back to us. Blizz will probably always respond to this request with "Use other classes strengths that benefit and shine well when compiled with your classes utilities." Against a lot of ranged you will probably always be told something to the effect of "Play more defensively when a ranged is there."

But I doubt we will see that change any time in the future. Personally I'd like to see a deep ret talent that boosted run speed of the paladin whenever he/she casts HoFreedom on anyone for the duration of the spell. Not really an amazing gap closer but gaining like...20-30% more runspeed for 6 seconds(in addition to the 15% PoJ) Might make closing gaps at least a little more reasonable.

/braces4forumtrollhatetells.

[Prentice]

No.

Paladins don't need a snare. We have lots of tools to keep in range - once we get there - and a snare helps other classes as well, leadign to potential balance issues.

No...what Paladins need, especially in PvP, is a kick on a reasonably short CD.

EJL

Fixt.

[pcrbaker]

Glyph of Crusader Strike: Redesigned - Your Crusader Strike now also reduces the movement speed of your target by 50% for 10 seconds.

Or could be something else a little less overpowered like so:

Glyph of Crusader Strike: Redesigned - Your Crusader Strike now also reduces your target's movement speed by 5% and attack speed by 1% for 10 seconds and stacks 5 times.

[Prentice]

Or could be something else a little less overpowered like so:

Glyph of Crusader Strike: Redesigned - Your Crusader Strike now also reduces your target's movement speed by 5% and attack speed by 1% for 10 seconds and stacks 5 times.

Because a glyph that reduces the targets mobility and reduces their damage output isn't equally overpowered?

[Kaladarofsenjin]

Or could be something else a little less overpowered like so:

Glyph of Crusader Strike: Redesigned - Your Crusader Strike now also reduces your target's movement speed by 5% and attack speed by 1% for 10 seconds and stacks 5 times.

Because a glyph that reduces the targets mobility and reduces their damage output isn't equally overpowered?

^^ A move that we always use being that good with 1 glyph is just a tad overboard.

[pcrbaker]

Because a glyph that reduces the targets mobility and reduces their damage output isn't equally overpowered?

25% speed reduction, 5% attack speed debuff at maximum stack. It would take a minimum of 20 seconds to get to the maximum if you can stay on your target and don't miss any cooldowns. Explain how this is overpowered compared to other debuffs like a mage's Slow or a Shaman's frost shock and earth shock.

[zcks]

Oh OH Idea just hit me

Minor glyph : Glyph of shut the hell up, Your exorcism now interrupts spell casting & if it is used on a target that is casting they are locked out of that spell school for 3 seconds.

Minor Glyph : glyph of were you runin to biatch, your crusader strike now reduces the targets run speed by 5% stacking 4 times.

[Prentice]

25% speed reduction, 5% attack speed debuff at maximum stack. It would take a minimum of 20 seconds to get to the maximum if you can stay on your target and don't miss any cooldowns. Explain how this is overpowered compared to other debuffs like a mage's Slow or a Shaman's frost shock and earth shock.

Explaining this proposed glyph's overpoweredness is pretty simple. The two abilities that you are relating too, Slow and Frost Shock, are skills learned by those classes through leveling or talents. Glyphs are not meant to be as strong as a skill or talent. They are enhancers, not huge buffs. You are suggesting rolling Thunderclap and Hamstring as side effects for an ability via a glyph. Do you see where I am coming from?