Lay on Hands (Merged)

[alt-ithist]

Nope it's a PVP nerf.. Remember, rated BGs are coming.. Get ready for a whole new stream of PVP nerfs due to rated BGs.

If that was the case it would be balanced during the Cataclysm patch

This is a serious nerf to me as a prot pally, there goes an oh-shit button. Since they dont care about regular BG im certain it isnt a pvp nerf, and ret pallies arent making great use of it in pve other then (a battle rezz but only if you catch them before they die). It's purely a tank nerf and im pissed.

[Vordox]

You can all whine as much as you want, but that's a good nerf IMO.

Bubble + LoH is a deadly combination, too deadly and not at all in balance with other classes. As a feral druid, I can easily shoot down a paladin one time, two times possibly, threee times... come on, you must be joking...

I'm still waiting for the removal of
-Bloodlust/Heroism
-Army of the Dead
-Soul Stone
-Tranquility
-Reincarnation

If they change LoH for Rated Bgs, I want these "staple" abilities changed for PvP totally as well.

[Zanel200]

man wtf lay on hands why they change lay on hands.

[Maleia]

AD needs to be nerfed, not Lay

It's targeting Prot paladins in PvE the hardest, as we don't get as good of CDs compared to our counterparts, warriors and DKs.

AD is far too powerful, since it's completely passive. LoH, I'm sorry Blizz, but you shouldn't go changing things that have been for 5+ years, get a clue. You need to nerf AD, and leave LoH alone.

If it was too powerful from the start, you had a long time to change it, and you didn't. Bite the bullet and live with it, not like the game has much time to fly anyway. Raiding will go down the tubes come Cata. Casuals won't be playing if they can't get carried to raiding content. And anyone that argues my point otherwise, it happens majorly with Wrath, it's going to continue to happen.

[Extract]

i'm bored.

Then play WoW!

[Monkeybutt22345]

If you're going to post in the Paladin forums, trying to tell us how we operate, you deserve all of the constructive criticism you receive.

You didn't play your class well. He did. You deserve the loss.

It actually takes skill to play shadow priests well. Ret paladins on the other hand do not.

[Worshaka]

My 2nd toon or main alt is a Pally and when I read about the LOH change I was a bit amazed. However after i've had a bit of time to process it I think it's not as unreasonable as it might seem at first.

Orginally LoH and a 1hr CD and cost 100% of the Paladin's remaining mana and healed for 100% of the target's health... now it's a 20min CD, costs 0 mana and heals for not more than the Paladins Max health.

Basically it got insanely buffed and the only restriction placed on it was the Paladins Max health condition which is hardly worth noting. It's been rather OP for quite awhile and as with the wow community they don't acknowledge buffs they just complain about nerfs. Think about it... a 0 mana heal that is instant and is likely to heal any target back to full health (the exceptions being tanks).

I think from that stand point it warrants the nerf and Blizzard are obviously trying to keep the flavour of the spell by not messing around with what it does, they are just messing around with who it can target as a way to balance an OP ability. My only concern is this removes a CD for prot pallys who already suffer from a lack of CD tanking abilities. The reason Ardent Defender got the free life ability was due to a lack of CD buttons and now one has been removed. I think there should be a deep prot talent that allows you to cast it back on yourself, similar to the change they made to sacred shield.

If not they need to give prot pallys another CD, or they will fall behind in the tanking department again.

[Noxxe]

Correct me if Im wrong but isnt it only on Ptr atm anyway?
Lets first just see how it turns out when the patch comes live.
Loved LoH for prot, Id get it more cd instead of nerf it that hard

[Tèmpést]

First reaction to this change:
*($^%(*&$%^(@*$%^(*@$&

Then later:
Another attempt to nerf Ret PvP.


Although I must say, LoH has saved my mana many times in many a PvE situation more times than it has with the health it comes with. I'm not the best wtih mana management, and I might miss casting my Judgement on the time it comes up since another ability came active, LoH filled that gap in for me. I primarily use it for the mana benefit of it, rather than the health restoration. I use it nearly every cooldown I get - I'm just that obsessed with it. If I don't use it, which is very rarely, I look for some Hunter or Shaman in the raid that could use the mana, even if 2250 doesn't sound feasible.

[dew]

Ardent Defender is essentially replacing Lay for PVE Protection, it's just that for a brief amount of time, you had both.

[Rushuna]

not sure about warriors, but priests can't get 100% hit on mass dispel

it's also a cast, impossible to stop the pally from healing at least once with holy light

if it's the same for warriors and isn't a 100% guaranteed bubble dispel, then they have the same luxury there

if not, oh well, you know what it's like to have to be good and not just totally reliant on the best assortment of cds

welcome to the game, friend

Very much not true, at least on my warrior >.>. Fighting pally, when they get low, switch to Battle stance, await bubble while fighting like normal, when bubble casts, it takes 1.5 secs for GCD to finish, then 2.5 (- haste) for Holy Light to finish. So, you have FOUR SECONDS to use a 1.5 second cast to destroy the bubble outright (Shattering Throw) or .5 sec talented 6 TIMES (Disc PvE) or even 2 1.5 sec casted Mass Dispels (Shadow/Holy) and STILL have a second left over to fear/pumel to interrupt.

I've have missed MAYBE 3-4 bubbles in my time of PvPing on my warrior, and those were from not paying attention to his health and being ready, or premature bubbling (like 60-70% HP so he doesn't get interrupted as a Holydin) and STILL he would only get 1 cast off and I'd have him interrupted on the second almost guaranteed.

Interrupting is far from impossible, although for many, especially those with laggy connections or slow reaction speeds, it must be very IMPROBABLE.

[Parameter]

My 2nd toon or main alt is a Pally and when I read about the LOH change I was a bit amazed. However after i've had a bit of time to process it I think it's not as unreasonable as it might seem at first.

Orginally LoH and a 1hr CD and cost 100% of the Paladin's remaining mana and healed for 100% of the target's health... now it's a 20min CD, costs 0 mana and heals for not more than the Paladins Max health.

Basically it got insanely buffed and the only restriction placed on it was the Paladins Max health condition which is hardly worth noting. It's been rather OP for quite awhile and as with the wow community they don't acknowledge buffs they just complain about nerfs. Think about it... a 0 mana heal that is instant and is likely to heal any target back to full health (the exceptions being tanks).

I think from that stand point it warrants the nerf and Blizzard are obviously trying to keep the flavour of the spell by not messing around with what it does, they are just messing around with who it can target as a way to balance an OP ability. My only concern is this removes a CD for prot pallys who already suffer from a lack of CD tanking abilities. The reason Ardent Defender got the free life ability was due to a lack of CD buttons and now one has been removed. I think there should be a deep prot talent that allows you to cast it back on yourself, similar to the change they made to sacred shield.

If not they need to give prot pallys another CD, or they will fall behind in the tanking department again.

Have it heal for 30% of your max hp and you can keep it as a tanking CD, because in all honesty a tank should not be allowed to heal himself to full just because a healer slacked off. It would still be an op tanking CD since it is an instant recovery of so much health when us Warriors and them Bears have a HoT, but meh.

[TwistedPower]

@ Ret pvp nerf idiots.... nobody cares about bg's or world pvp. It was not a ret nerf. You guys are retarded.

It is ok, we have 2 prot pallys they can just use it on eachother...

[rabbimojo]

...
I think from that stand point it warrants the nerf and Blizzard are obviously trying to keep the flavour of the spell by not messing around with what it does, they are just messing around with who it can target as a way to balance an OP ability. My only concern is this removes a CD for prot pallys who already suffer from a lack of CD tanking abilities. The reason Ardent Defender got the free life ability was due to a lack of CD buttons and now one has been removed. I think there should be a deep prot talent that allows you to cast it back on yourself, similar to the change they made to sacred shield.

If not they need to give prot pallys another CD, or they will fall behind in the tanking department again.

Removing it outright wouldn't put them 'behind' in tanking, because LoH isn't usable often enough in PvE to make it especially powerful. Although this is not proof that nobody is doing so, I haven't heard of guilds waiting for LoH to be back up for each attempt. Realistically, occasions where it makes a big difference are rare.

I think really it could be changed to be something like 30%, 40%, maybe 50% of the target's HP, maybe a 5 or 10min cooldown if on the lower end of those. With everyone getting more HP, would make some sense.

Have it heal for 30% of your max hp and you can keep it as a tanking CD, because in all honesty a tank should not be allowed to heal himself to full just because a healer slacked off. It would still be an op tanking CD since it is an instant recovery of so much health when us Warriors and them Bears have a HoT, but meh.

^
Realistically it's just an old ability which we've all grown used to having. It's not especially balanced, but it's not so insanely OP that it's a problem.

I think it ought to be normalized some, in any case, if only to get it out of the discussion on paladin balance. Get it out, or get it properly 'in'.

[Ricey]

The paladin class has officially gone to the crapper..... Q_Q

[BoxofRox]

Hmmm, maybe if people cry more about DKs, they'll get nerfed too.

Wait...

[Lassy]

1) GC has already mentioned this is a huge "maybe" on the ptr. As in "not likely to go live".

2) Would you rather have your bubble removed? Because honestly, even if it happens once every 15 minutes, a paladin with a healthpool three times as big as the next class is a bit much guys.


I weep for the (slight) loss in PvE utility, I do. But I'll be so glad that the paladins I meet in BGs or outdoor PvP don't have a third ffing healthbar I have to work through.

[Sigmundus]

For all of you whining about LoH read this:

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/27/2067...n-changes.html

They have changed it back for now.

[Forcelink]

If I had to guess, I could see this being a prot tanking nerf above all else, yah, you got limited buttons, but you have a passive cant die every 2 mins, and another once every 20 mins. No other tank can spike 50k+ hp on demand. I still don't agree with the change tho.

Lets see...a druid with survival instincts = >60k>50k

Warrior with last stand= >52k

And lets no forget cooldowns like shield wall/divine protection

[Astray]

LoH would be a big nerf. Sacred shield the same. I love my paladins ability to solo a lot of stuff. I know its unfair. 99% of all players dont want to solo old content, but i'm sure it will break their heart, that paladins can to it better than them.