Is Elitist Jerks wrong for a change? (Regarding Unholy DPS)

[Bael]

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...els&n=Katzghan

OK, got a small problem. I used Elitist Jerks' recent Unholy thread and the 17/0/54 build (See: http://elitistjerks.com/f72/t72364-u...i_ever_wanted/ ) to try out returning to a 2-hand weapon build after putting a DW Frost setup through some paces. I followed the guidelines (Proper runeforged weapon, gems for almost nothing but strength, aimed for the hit cap, etc.) and I found I am doing several hundred DPS LESS (I'm doing 2900 compared to 3100 on average) than my previous Frost build. Biggest thing to get used to was the fact Obliterate was consuming Diseases every hit, so I decided to completely remove it from my hotbars. But after some testing in both Heroics, Raids, and simple wailing on target dummies, it's hard to maintain around 3000 DPS. I float around 2900-2950 DPS with Horn of Winter active along with Victor's Call active. I can spike to 3100 if I time swings right, but it's mostly luck of the draw.

So, I pose this question. Is Elitist Jerks somewhat wrong in the fact that Unholy can have better sustained DPS or am I missing an important point in my setup?

The first problem I found was that you didn't take Obliterate off your bar when you first went Unholy. That was your initial mistake, but as you said you fixed that. The second problem I see is that you're wasting points in improved unholy presence that could instead give you more AP and crit if shifted back over to blood. I hope this doesn't mean you've been trying to dps in unholy presence this whole time. That would also explain a lot of the lack you observe. Go for blood presence when using a two-hander.

I notice that your experise is low. It's probable that you're experiencing quite a few dodges, which can make a rotation much more difficult. It's good that you've enchanted your gloves to help cover for this. Do likewise with your bracers.

I observe that you're wasting many slots when it comes to gemming. Change to a relentless metagem. Place a nightmare tear in your chest's blue socket, and remove all gems which provide stamina. Use either +str or +str/crit. If neither of those gems will get you a given piece's socket bonus, the bonus is not worth your time.

For purposes of improving my performance on movement-based fights, I've been using a Tuskarr's Vitality enchant. I'm finding the speed boost to be sufficient to increase my on-target time. Your mileage may vary. If you don't care for the improved run speed, the crit to boots that you have is probably fine.

Essentially I would say that before complaining about information you find at Elitist Jerks, you need to actually use it first.

Since your only active trinket requires time to stack and needs to have as much up time as possible to have any noticable effect, I would recommend macroing it to your scourge strike.

#showtooltip Scourge Strike
/cast 13
/cast 14
/cast Scourge Strike

If it were a trinket that gave its entire effect immediately, I would instead suggest macroing it to your gargoyle.

Since you have failed to follow examples at EJ, I'm going to assume you may not understand the basic idea of the current unholy rotation (which will change, or rather revert, come 3.3).

Use plague strike first so that every attack, including your first icy touch, benefits from rage of rivendare. You do not need to use your blood strikes together at all times since they are not converting to death runes, so your 'rotation' is actually much simpler. It's more of a priority system really.

Get blood plague up. Get frost fever up. Activate desolation with a blood strike. Activate your sigil with a scourge strike. Use your last rune on a blood strike since it's the best dps move left that you can spend a single blood rune on. Fire a death coil, since it's your hardest hitting single attack at this point in time. Use horn of winter so that you'll have enough energy to fire another death coil. Leave your pet on defensive with only claw enabled on autocast so that he will attack your target immediately. If a situation demands it, switch him to passive and start managing him manually. If there's a large aoe attack incoming, get out of it and tell him to huddle while you're strafing.

If your ghoul dies you lose 10-14% of your damage depending on the details of the encounter and your buffs/debuffs. Your rotation is a simple, short, disease-clipping one that repeats. It will look like this in shorthand.

PS, IT, BS, SS, BS, DC, HW, DC
PS, IT, BS, SS, BS, DC, DC

I imagine that a part of the difficulty is also your weapon's item level holding you back to some degree.

Also, what Ruki said.

[Fargom]

The ends can't justify the means. Tun acted like a child, refused to provide any proof why his "logic" was superior, and got banned for it. If he would have simply followed the rules, and posted some sort of proof it would be fine, instead he decided to act like hot stuff because he is in ensida.

Regardless of what guild you are in, if you don't follow the forum rules you are going to get the banhammer. Tun wasn't a special snowflake, hope he learned his lesson.

[Snebbles]

The ends can't justify the means. Tun acted like a child, refused to provide any proof why his "logic" was superior, and got banned for it. If he would have simply followed the rules, and posted some sort of proof it would be fine, instead he decided to act like hot stuff because he is in ensida.

Regardless of what guild you are in, if you don't follow the forum rules you are going to get the banhammer. Tun wasn't a special snowflake, hope he learned his lesson.

Actually read the response from EJ

Elitist jerks response in Tun's evidence:
"Sadly, since Tun got banned, he could no longer argue his point about validity of the final DPS numbers and the merits of FB versus not. As far as merits of FB go (which he didn't dispute necessarily), I think at his gear level, he may have been right, to a degree."

Wouldn't u agree, that Ensidia would have a better understanding than EJ?

It is safe to say when EJ are told sumthin rite, they reject it!

That's another way of saying "yeah, we were stupid and wrong, BUT he was disagreeing with us, and it's impossible for us to be stupid and wrong, therefore he has to be stupid and wrong, so we banned him, even though he was right".

[Toogood]

Guys and girls, you can't be so gullible to believe everything EJ (not just EJ) has come up with mathematically. As i said, take information with a grain of salt.

Some of you seem to be pretty gullible IRL, if you treat EJ stats with so much certainty!

Experience > Mathematical calcualtions.

[Fargom]

Actually read the response from EJ


That's another way of saying "yeah, we were stupid and wrong, BUT he was disagreeing with us, and it's impossible for us to be stupid and wrong, therefore he has to be stupid and wrong, so we banned him, even though he was right".

Go read the entire thread, Tun was a douche.

[Pineapple]

My God, nerd drama is the BEST.

And look at the responses from both EJ and Ensidia! Who needs "Days of our lives" when you've got this crap. Should WoW go to hell, at least they'll have a future in soap.

"Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned" would be 100% accurate had it no been for the fact that they're not women, just acting like them.

Disclaimer: No offense intended, females of the world! You just seem to enjoy drama a tad to much

[Toogood]

Go read the entire thread, Tun was a douche.

But he was correct! People do make mistakes, and if your a person who can't take criticism and reject a valid point, than there's something wrong.

You just keep going round in circles with each post saying Tun was a douche, a girl, a cry baby. This just proves, that you feel very insecure, when
another person proves you wrong, and just state abusive gargon to cover up your own failure.

[Fargom]

Experience > Mathematical calcualtions.

Your perspective is fatally flawed, logically speaking. You are guilty of Appeal to Authoritah, by which I mean you assume your own "personal logic" is superior to the empirical study and use of carefully-derived formulae available in an accepted simulation. Despite massive evidence to the contrary, you assume your inability to attain the listed damage numbers is due to logical flaws in the spreadsheet, not the fact that you suck.

Debate class 101 pwns your face.

[Enova]

Creating an EJ account (or any other form of private account on the internet nowdays, for that matter) assumes that you understand and agree to abide by a set of rules.

If you do not follow the rules, people with some authority to enforce the said rules will take action. It doesn't matter what guild you play for. It's pretty much the same way that even Mike Tyson has to pay taxes

I'm sorry to say this, especially since for all I know Tun could actually be a great player (despite playing Horde :P), but talking to any gathering of people and proclaiming that your opinion is better than theirs, without proof or at least something to cast a shadow of doubt will get you ostracized by that community. It's one of those retardedly simple things that you're supposed to know by the end of high school.

You don't tell the nuns that God is dead and then expect to be invited to the convenant for Christmas dinner. And you can not even provide a reasonable argument for that claim, since it's religion :P
You don't tell the people at NASA that you have built an anti matter powered space craft out of a micro-wave oven and two nylon panties and expect a Nobel prize without at least producing some blueprints.
You don't tell the people on the EJ forums that you have no proof but you know that a certain spec is better because you're from Ensidia.

Okay, I'm exagerating here, but wouldn't it have been so much simpler if Tun's theory was phrased more like this:
'I have a theory that <X rotation with Y spec and Z gems> is better than <A rotation with B spec and C gems>; right now, I'm running some parses to verify this, but I'd like some other independant testers to provide some parses of their own, for statistical accuracy and to cover a wider combination of raid compositions, talents, gear levels and strategies' ?

Just saying, man...

And yes, sometimes information on EJ is wrong. Sometimes I was wrong, sometimes I saw wrong information being posted. Here's a hint: you have two eyes and a brain, filter what you read. If the reasons why things happen are not clear to you, it's usually better to send a PM to whoever claims something you don't understand. NEVER take anything as an axiom; everything is best served with a grain of salt. Even when proof is presented, it does not make a claim universally valid.

[vandamme]

He didn't follow the rules. Does not matter whether or not his opinion was correct, he was not banned for being contrary to the popular opinions. People are just using it to 'prove' EJ is wrong or bad when he pretty much deserved it.

[chupavida]

My favorite part about posts (and the failures who post in them) like this is that they refer to EJ as if it were some monolithic entity, handing down wisdom from on high.

Threads are written by players who have proven themselves competent, players from a wide variety of high-end raiding guilds, guilds like Premonition, Juggernaut, Fusion etc. It's a community of (mostly) intelligent people, and thankfully, one of the few places on the internet where I can read about or discuss the game without wanting to stab people. Heavy handed moderation is what makes that possible, and I laugh at people who aren't capable of surviving in that kind of environment.

If you have a problem with "what EJ says," there's a really really good chance you're an idiot.

[Kinettik]

I think the Yogg+0 is impossible made some assumptions about the p3 adds that were negated with different tactics.

Regardless, that doesn't matter. What point are you trying to make? Are you insinuating that because EJ's community was wrong about "X, Y, or Z" that somehow that means the whole site is wrong?

That irritates the bejesus out of me. It's one of the most common ways primitive screwheads argue. (IIRC it's ad hominem tu quoque. But don't quote me.)

"Well 30 years ago 'science' predicted global cooling, so global warming must be false."
"Well, 'scientists' can't prove how life started, so evolution must be false."
"Well EJ said Yogg+0 was impossible, so they must be wrong about everything."

Not at all, my insinuation was that Ensidia, allthough they claim to hate EJ and everything about it ran to them and their Theory-crafting to justify a failed progression kill on their part. It was a diect response to the quote in my first post and not to negate any validity that the EJ site has proven to be known for.

I for one do use EJ for thier Spreadsheets and regardless what certain Ensidia members claim, EJs info is very valid and helpful for any raider, even them. Its a "Guideline" for BiS itemization and not a set way of downing encounters or DPS that "Should" be attained. Some people still dont get that.....

[Asgard]

EJ is weird sometimes yeah. They do provide some good info (if you're new to the class), they do make mistakes (everybody does), but their "Rules" are so crappy. I got an infraction on my first post ever, because I wrote :

"I'm not sure to understand what you mean by FFB"
instead of
"I'm not sure to understand what you mean by FFB."
(Yep, just for a dot)

[rabbimojo]

EJ is a site doing WoW science, basically.
It's on a small scale, and is subject to the expected perturbations thereof, but that's the basic idea. You pose a hypothesis, and bring data when you do it. You show your work, people peer review it, and if it stands the test it moves towards becoming part of the canon.

Personally, I use EJ as sort of a shortcut to some knowledge. I'll go there, look for conclusions (some communities are better than others at this), find some evidence, learn about the trip-ups to expect, etc.

Then I'll do my own work. It's important for theorycrafters in general to understand exactly -why- something is the way it is, because every formula on EJ has a set of assumptions alongside it, whether stated or not. Those assumptions must be understood to make any use of the rules and formulas.

Example, @OP: EJ's analyses typically involve people at or near BIS. Different specs and rotations scale differently with gear. Some require a certain threshold on this or that. When you are doing 3k dps, it's likely that your situation is fundamentally different from that of someone doing 8k dps.

You can use EJ to learn nuances of your class (e.g., finding out that "refreshing" icy touch doesn't refresh IIT's raid haste), and use those to make good decisions about your character and what you do. You shouldn't use it as some sort of "How to Raid: for Dummies!" guide.

It's in constant flux, and occasionally is too conservative with various changes. It is not always perfect, so you must read with your eyes and brain open.

EJ is from time to time a great community. If you can fit their posting rules well, you can enjoy yourself.
If you aren't extremely convinced you're able to post properly, you will probably hate it.

Oh, and the name is not a joke. They are often elitists, and they are often jerks. I've received infractions for things that the moderator was flat-out wrong on, but you can't really do anything about it. It's their community. If you can't handle that, best to stay away.

[Fargom]

EJ is weird sometimes yeah. They do provide some good info (if you're new to the class), they do make mistakes (everybody does), but their "Rules" are so crappy. I got an infraction on my first post ever, because I wrote :

"I'm not sure to understand what you mean by FFB"
instead of
"I'm not sure to understand what you mean by FFB."
(Yep, just for a dot)

Its almost as if they have rules that are clearly posted regarding the use of proper grammar.


Oh wait, they do. Sure, it can be harsh sometimes but without the heavy handed infractions for terrible typing it would be a horrible place.

[Asgard]

Its almost as if they have rules that are clearly posted regarding the use of proper grammar.


Oh wait, they do. Sure, it can be harsh sometimes but without the heavy handed infractions for terrible typing it would be a horrible place.

I'm ok with not using "imo lolret R not fine lol u suxx" but getting an infraction for this... I wouldn't call it "terrible typing".

Oh and by the way, "Its" isn't correct, "It's" would be better.

[Fargom]

I'm ok with not using "imo lolret R not fine lol u suxx" but getting an infraction for this... I wouldn't call it "terrible typing".

Oh and by the way, "Its" isn't correct, "It's" would be better.

I clean up my spelling and grammar for EJ posting, this forum does not require it. Reading the rules for where you are posting is hard, isn't it?

[Toogood]

It's funny how it started from DK unholy dps to ''Fargom, making stupid posts'' to ''Grammar checking''!

Anything that Fargom says can be viewed as not even there

Cheer up, watch my sig ;D

[RoKPaNda]

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...els&n=Katzghan

OK, got a small problem. I used Elitist Jerks' recent Unholy thread and the 17/0/54 build (See: http://elitistjerks.com/f72/t72364-u...i_ever_wanted/ ) to try out returning to a 2-hand weapon build after putting a DW Frost setup through some paces. I followed the guidelines (Proper runeforged weapon, gems for almost nothing but strength, aimed for the hit cap, etc.) and I found I am doing several hundred DPS LESS (I'm doing 2900 compared to 3100 on average) than my previous Frost build. Biggest thing to get used to was the fact Obliterate was consuming Diseases every hit, so I decided to completely remove it from my hotbars. But after some testing in both Heroics, Raids, and simple wailing on target dummies, it's hard to maintain around 3000 DPS. I float around 2900-2950 DPS with Horn of Winter active along with Victor's Call active. I can spike to 3100 if I time swings right, but it's mostly luck of the draw.

So, I pose this question. Is Elitist Jerks somewhat wrong in the fact that Unholy can have better sustained DPS or am I missing an important point in my setup?

With your gear you should be able to push out a lot more than that. Your gear is better than mine in a couple slots, the same in others. My trinkets are better though, and I push out 5.5k in raids, and just under 4k on the dummy. I assume you're talking about raid DPS, but even if you're talking about dummy DPS I would think your DPS would be higher. Then again, I'm blood, but I can't imagine the DPS difference being THAT big.

[prodge64]

I'd say the following pretty much sums it up: theorycrafted dps != live dps.

It's like trying to read up on how to beat Tetris! What you'll learn is to fit the falling pieces in even rows, leaving no holes. All that sounds great on paper but in reality you can't foresee how the game will evolve, since there's no way of pre-determining the order of said pieces, and paper is what EJ deals with.