Patch 3.3 - PTR Build 10747

[Revrant]

blurgh, I hope Invincible isn't some puss ass achievement or 1% drop, I was hoping it would be an Ashen Verdict mount, but it seems to be a unique raid mount.

I fucking hope the Ashen Verdict gets a mount, this is end-of-the-game here and I can't get a fucking proto-drake from anything but achievements or fucking camping/randomness, nor can I get a mount that isn't just an old god damned model(Argent Tournament).

Give the Verdict some love, dammit, I'm tired of this old Vanilla drake model.

[Ulrik]

Not to mention ALL your passive CD's and extra shit. You have CD's popping all over the place...

I think the only one is Ardent Defender which was recently brought down to a 20% reduction. The heal effect can only happen once every two minutes.

IC radiance is going to be a joke for you, you already get over 130% avoidance single target...

That is a ridiculous number. No tank has ever had, or will ever have that much of a chance to avoid getting hit. Unless you're adding blocking into that but then you're using the wrong term to describe it. That would be your 'unhittable' amount which is your Miss+Dodge+Parry+Block chance.

OMG you might actually have a CHANCE of using up your Holy Shield and Redoubt charges fully now lol which btw are CD's themselves on very very short timers.

First of all Holy shield is not a CD, it's one of our normal rotation abilities. If the duration and charges of Holy Shield don't change then no, there's almost no chance that it will get fully consumed before I can refresh. However at less then 2k BV in normal T9 gear, blocking which doesn't scale, has a minimal effect on our mitigation. Redoubt has a random proc and therefore can't be counted upon for anything.

The only encounter so far where Block stands out is Heroic 25 Anub adds. And that's because the encounter is broken and skewed towards block tanks. Even then Warrior talents make them the better chioce if you can get them.

So don't you dare compare your "I need to pop this CD every once in a while" shit with our "I have to pop this CD everytime it's up" shit.

Again I ask what would you think if receiving LoH prevented Icebound Fortitude for any duration? If I get a LoH then I'm left with 1 passive ability which is not a flat damage reduction, only 20% on things that bring you under 35% health. **Correction. It's 20% reduction on the part of the damage that falls under 35%, not 20% on the entire blow.

[Nicephorus]

3.3: PIRATES OF THE CARIBBEAN!

Honestly they need a better ending to the Lich King saga.

[HammondQ]

blurgh, I hope Invincible isn't some puss ass achievement or 1% drop, I was hoping it would be an Ashen Verdict mount, but it seems to be a unique raid mount.

I fucking hope the Ashen Verdict gets a mount, this is end-of-the-game here and I can't get a fucking proto-drake from anything but achievements or fucking camping/randomness, nor can I get a mount that isn't just an old god damned model(Argent Tournament).

Give the Verdict some love, dammit, I'm tired of this old Vanilla drake model.

Red Proto-Drake. Got Mine in February in Naxx gear 2 months before Ulduar came out, and I was FAR from the 1st to get it.

If your are just dieing for a Proto this is currently the easiest way to get one.


I imagine that the “Ashen Verdict” rep will be similar to the “Ashtongue Deathsworn” rep. Run Black Temple…I mean Ice Crown Citadel, and you gain rep incidentally.

Proto Drakes are pretty easy to get now but I doubt they will just hand them out as a free bonus just for raiding ICC.

[Chimbles]

Still obsessing over the new LK's possible identity. Goddamn it, need answers!

[inforsir]

Last time I check This IS a Nerf

Flash of Light: This spell no longer causes a heal-over-time effect unless the player has the Infusion of Light talent.

Thats also a nerf to Infusion Of Light

Lay on Hands: This ability now places Forbearance on the target and cannot be used on a target with Forbearance. THats A NERF


Aura Mastery: This effect of this talent has been reduced in duration to 6 seconds.
NERF NERF NERF NERF

This is even Dumber
Infusion of Light: This talent now causes the paladin’s Flash of Light spells to heal the target for 50/100% of the Flash of Light healing amount over 12 seconds.
U LOSE UR INsTANT FL FOR A 100% HOT THAT U ALLLREADY FUCKING GET WITH SS AND REG FOL

These ARNT BUFFS Get BRAINS FFS, I dont know how fuckign dumb u guys are but aprently pretty stupid

[Corian]

I think the only one is Ardent Defender which was recently brought down to a 20% reduction. The heal effect can only happen once every two minutes.

Holy Shield is a cooldown even if it is a short timer.
Redoubt is a proc that's up most of the time.
You have a passive all healing increased by 11% on yourself.
Argent Defender as another passive cooldown.

That is a ridiculous number. No tank has ever had, or will ever have that much of a chance to avoid getting hit. Unless you're adding blocking into that but then you're using the wrong term to describe it. That would be your 'unhittable' amount which is your Miss+Dodge+Parry+Block chance.

Avoidance/unhittable, w/e you wanna call it, I call total Avoidance as parry/dodge/to be missed and your Unhittable is routinely above 130% single target.

First of all Holy shield is not a CD, it's one of our normal rotation abilities. If the duration and charges of Holy Shield don't change then no, there's almost no chance that it will get fully consumed before I can refresh. However at less then 2k BV in normal T9 gear, blocking which doesn't scale, has a minimal effect on our mitigation. Redoubt has a random proc and therefore can't be counted upon for anything.

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck....
10k hit, you block 2k or 20%
10k hit I block 0 or 0%
20k hit you block 2k or 10%
20k hit i block 0 or 0%
See a pattern?

The only encounter so far where Block stands out is Heroic 25 Anub adds. And that's because the encounter is broken and skewed towards block tanks. Even then Warrior talents make them the better chioce if you can get them.

Bullshit!! Block makes Pallies and warriors better tanks for almost every single encounter in the f'n game, to say diff is just an absolutely assinine statement.
Again, your Pally vs my DK....you have more health, more threat, a slightly less amount of armor, same or more flat midigation, almost equal Total avoidance, completely blow me away in unhittable which results in you blocking anything and everything that gets past your avoidance, something I don't have what so ever anywhere, anyhow.
I end up popping CD's like candy just to accomplish the same thing you do pushing 4 buttons and talking on the phone.

Again I ask what would you think if receiving LoH prevented Icebound Fortitude for any duration? If I get a LoH then I'm left with 1 passive ability which is not a flat damage reduction, only 20% on things that bring you under 35% health. **Correction. It's 20% reduction on the part of the damage that falls under 35%, not 20% on the entire blow.

AGAIN, comparing your one oh shit button to which you may or may not have to use on a regular basis to my CD's which i HAVE to and NEED to use constantly is a retarded comparision.
You really don't get it do you?
You need your CD to save your ass once a fight maybe.
DK's need their CD's just to tank normally and hope we have something left when a really bad time pops up.

[nwo]

Actually infusion of light does seem like a buff for holy pallies. It sounds like you are no longer going to need a Sacred Shield to be on a target in order for them to receive the FoL HoT which is a pretty damn nice buff if you ask me. However, I may have misunderstood the Infusion of Light change, but from the sounds of it, my assumption is correct.

[Atang]

Holy Shield is a cooldown even if it is a short timer.

Holy Shield
Is a spell... Much like any other spell, Howling Blast, and just like any other spell It has a cool down, that doesn't mean it IS a Cooldown.

You have a passive all healing increased by 11% on yourself.

Protection Paladins have Divinity When they spend 5 talent points into it. Show me where your other 6% is magically coming from?!?!

Argent Defender as another passive cooldown.

Argent Defender is a Talent, not a cool down. It will reduce 20% damage only on the initial hit that TAKES YOU BELOW 35%, not once you are already below 35%. And will only heal you ONCE every 2 minutes.

Icebound Fortitude on the other hand can be ACTIVATED when you want it. Same 20% reduction and same 2 minute cool down. I know I would much rather like to be able to activate my 20% reduction instead of it just happen when i am close to dieing ONLY. On top of that you have Will of the Necropolis which will reduce Damage by an ADDITIONAL 15%, whenever you are going or ALREADY below 35%. I would much rather Argent Defender get a 15 second cool down and work WHILE i am below 35%.

You are talking about cool downs... Well since you can activate Icebound Fortitude when you want wouldn't that give YOU a DK more control over that cool down?

Avoidance/unhittable, w/e you wanna call it, I call total Avoidance as parry/dodge/to be missed and your Unhittable is routinely above 130% single target.

Block will only mitigate a certain amount, And this is a Paladin's biggest defensive mechanic. So even though the pally Blocked he will still get hit.

DKs on the other hand have high amounts of Parry. Now correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't parry avoid the hit all together?

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck....
10k hit, you block 2k or 20%
10k hit I block 0 or 0%
20k hit you block 2k or 10%
20k hit i block 0 or 0%
See a pattern?

No I do not see a pattern. At least one that makes sense. OMG so you don't have block, that is probably Because you do not carry a shield. Now lets look at the REAL numbers shall we.

• The Paladin and the Death Knight used as examples BOTH have a 2830-2880 Gear score on WoW-Heroes.
• Due to the rules of MMO-Champion Forums, I can not link them. As they are not my Characters.

10k Hit on a Paladin

• Paladin blocks 2k
• The Paladin absorbs 480 Damage is through Improved Righteous Fury.
• The Paladin absorbs 226 Damage from Blessing of Sanctuary
• Another 219 from Shield of the Templar.
• The Paladin in this case has 27000 Armor, after talents.
• 4378 Damage is mitigated through armor.
• The Paladin takes 2697 Damage
• Roughly 73% of the damage is mitigated.

10k Hit on a Death Knight

• Death Knight absorbs 1k from Frost Presence with Improved Frost Presence
• Death Knight absorbs 1800 more damage from Bone Shield
• The Death Knight is equally geared to the Paladin, but only has 18.5k Armor, after talents.
• The Death Knight has Frost Presence, increasing their Armor to 29600
• 4608 Damage is mitigated through armor.
• The Death Knight takes 2592 Damage
• Roughly 74% of the damage is mitigated.

20k Hit on a Paladin

• Paladin blocks 2k
• The Paladin absorbs 1080 Damage is through Improved Righteous Fury.
• The Paladin absorbs 508 Damage from Blessing of Sanctuary
• Another 492 from Shield of the Templar.
• The Paladin in this case has 27000 Armor, after talents.
• 9851 Damage is mitigated through armor.
• The Paladin takes 6069 Damage
• Roughly 70% of the damage is mitigated.

20k Hit on a Death Knight

• Death Knight absorbs 2k from Frost Presence with Improved Frost Presence
• Lets assume the Death Knight does not have Bone Shield active.
• The Death Knight is equally geared to the Paladin, but only has 18.5k Armor, after talents.
• The Death Knight has Frost Presence, increasing their Armor to 29600
• 11524 Damage is mitigated through armor.
• The Death Knight takes 6476 Damage
• Roughly 68% of the damage is mitigated.

Looks pretty Even to me... But wait, you wanted to say that Paladins take WAY less damage. We disproved physical damage. Maybe you are right with spell damage, lets check.

10k SPELL on a Paladin

• The Paladin absorbs 300 Damage from Blessing of Sanctuary
• The Paladin absorbs an additional 582 Damage from Guarded by the Light.
• Another 547 Damage is absorbed through Improved Righteous Fury.
• Another 257 from Shield of the Templar.
• Paladin blocks 0 Damage, huh can't block spells
• The Paladin in this case has 27000 Armor, after talents.
• 0 Damage is mitigated through armor, huh armor is null too.
• The Paladin takes 8314 Damage
• Roughly 17% of the damage is mitigated.

10k SPELL on a Death Knight

• Death Knight absorbs 1k from Frost Presence with Improved Frost Presence
• Lets assume the Death Knight does not have Bone Shield active. I really want to help you out here.
• Lets also assume the Death Knight does NOT have Anti-Magic Zone or Magic suppression.
• The Death Knight is equally geared to the Paladin, but only has 18.5k Armor, after talents.
• The Death Knight has Frost Presence, increasing their Armor to 29600
• 0 Damage is mitigated through armor.
• The Death Knight knows the spell is coming and uses his Anti-Magic Shell, because any good tank has DBM.
• The Death Knight takes 0 Damage
• 100% of the damage is mitigated.

And you can say "Oh, my Anti-Magic Shell was on cool down, cause it has a LONG 45 second cool down." Well then even if you had your Bone Shield up you would take less Spell damage than a Paladin. And if both abilities are on cool down then you are a novice tank and need to learn when to use them.

Bullshit!! Block makes Pallies and warriors better tanks for almost every single encounter in the f'n game, to say diff is just an absolutely assinine statement.

1) No need to swear in a forum, it doesn't help get your point across.
2) Assinine is spelled Asinine
3) It is not Asinine. I just proved, with REAL FORMULAS in use, that your views were wrong.
4) the references to formulas are linked at the bottom of my post... Feel free to check the math.

Again, your Pally vs my DK....you have more health, more threat, a slightly less amount of armor, same or more flat midigation, almost equal Total avoidance, completely blow me away in unhittable which results in you blocking anything and everything that gets past your avoidance, something I don't have what so ever anywhere, anyhow.

• The Paladin and the Death Knight used as examples BOTH have a 2830-2880 Gear score on WoW-Heroes.
• Due to the rules of MMO-Champion Forums, I can not link them. As they are not my Characters.

Paladin HEALTH

• The Paladin has 40k Health Unbuffed, As Wow-Heroes shows characters with no buffs on.
• The Paladin can add 4k Health with Greater Blessing of Sanctuary
• The Paladin can NOT use Blessing of Kings, so do not try to reply with that. 1 Paladin, 1 Blessing...
• The Paladin has a total Health of 44k, SELF BUFFED. EVERYONE can get the same raid buffs.

Death Knight HEALTH

• The Death Knight has 35k Heath Unbuffed, As Wow-Heroes shows characters with no buffs on.
• The Death Knight can add 2.1k Health with Frost Presence.
• The Death Knight has a total Health of 37.1k, SELF BUFFED. EVERYONE can get the same raid buffs.

So your views on the class mechanics of Health are correct. An Equally Geared Paladin will have more health than a Death Knight.

THREAT

• Threat is generated by a person's skill with their character. Effected by the abilities used and timing.
• Nothing Else needs Said about threat. If you need pointers, look up threat rotations.

MITIGATION

• We covered this above.
• Death Knights have better mitigation against Melee AND Spells than a Paladin. Especially if the Paladin does not block the attack.

Death Knight AVOIDANCE

• The Death Knight in my examples has 29.85% Dodge
• The Death Knight in my examples has 21.1% Parry
• This gives the Death Knight 50.95% Avoidance Chance

Paladin AVOIDANCE

• The Paladin in my examples has 27.72% Dodge
• The Paladin in my examples has 19.39% Parry
• This gives the Paladin 47.11% Avoidance Chance

Looks as if the Death Knight not only can mitigate more damage, but also avoids more damage. Please explain to US ALL where you figure ANYONE can get 130% avoidance!!!

Completely blow me away in unhittable which results in you blocking anything and everything that gets past your avoidance, something I don't have what so ever anywhere, anyhow.

I had to quote this part again to point out how absurd it is.

1) "Unhittable" is the same as Avoidance. Meaning you do NOT get hit.
2) Block is not in the same category as avoidance.
3) Block does NOT make you avoid the damage. It merely absorbs SOME of the physical damage.
4) Above we covered how a Death Knight's mitigation makes up for the amount of damage a Paladin CAN block.
5) Block is NOT 100%. Death Knight mitigation IS.
6) Even if a Paladin does block, they STILL GET HIT!!!

I end up popping CD's like candy just to accomplish the same thing you do pushing 4 buttons and talking on the phone.

Learn your rotations and cool downs is not a problem. Enough said about this...

AGAIN, comparing your one oh shit button to which you may or may not have to use on a regular basis to my CD's which i HAVE to and NEED to use constantly is a retarded comparision.
You really don't get it do you?
You need your CD to save your ass once a fight maybe.
DK's need their CD's just to tank normally and hope we have something left when a really bad time pops up.

You really don't get what he ORIGINALLY MEANT!!!

He is not talking about HIM using Lay on Hands. All Paladins get this spell, and if a HOLY PALADIN uses this at the wrong time. It CAN & WILL mess up the rotation and use of a survival spell by the Protection Paladin. As it will add a debuff to the player it is USED ON. This Debuff stops a Protection Paladin from being able to use 5 Different Abilities on himself for 2 minutes.

It would be the same as if a healer used a spell on you, but that spell stopped the use of your Icebound Fortitude by adding a 2 minute Debuff to you. So even if your Icebound Fortitude cool down is ready, the debuff stops you from casting it.


__________________________________________________________________________________________ _________________________________________________________
REFERENCES
http://www.wowwiki.com/Formulasamage_reduction

[buzon01]

so in this talent build he has imp frost pres and bone armour which are all defensive cooldowns from 2 different trees? if ur just lookin at all cds and doin the maths then ur numbers r off, so saying ull mit dmg with imp frost then further more with bone armour which will loose its charge after wat 5 secdons in end content is useless maths.

[mrwingtipshoes]

I sense much nerd rage in this thread....


QQ MOAR! Have pallys ever been nerfed before? (yea i know they were terrible at launch blah blah) but really have they been nerfed before? because maybe this is that pallys just aren't used to a nerf bad to the face?

[Langly]

Atang, you asked where he was getting 11% from, it's 5% from Divinity, and an additional 6% from improved devotion aura (which gives 6% healing to everyone affected by the paladin's aura's). It jumps up to 16% if you have a holy paladin healing who also has divinity.

However, not all prot paladins take divinity, so it's not necessarily 11% across the board.

[Corian]

Holy Shield
Is a spell... Much like any other spell, Howling Blast, and just like any other spell It has a cool down, that doesn't mean it IS a Cooldown.


Protection Paladins have Divinity When they spend 5 talent points into it. Show me where your other 6% is magically coming from?!?!

Argent Defender is a Talent, not a cool down. It will reduce 20% damage only on the initial hit that TAKES YOU BELOW 35%, not once you are already below 35%. And will only heal you ONCE every 2 minutes.

Icebound Fortitude on the other hand can be ACTIVATED when you want it. Same 20% reduction and same 2 minute cool down. I know I would much rather like to be able to activate my 20% reduction instead of it just happen when i am close to dieing ONLY. On top of that you have Will of the Necropolis which will reduce Damage by an ADDITIONAL 15%, whenever you are going or ALREADY below 35%. I would much rather Argent Defender get a 15 second cool down and work WHILE i am below 35%.

You are talking about cool downs... Well since you can activate Icebound Fortitude when you want wouldn't that give YOU a DK more control over that cool down?

Block will only mitigate a certain amount, And this is a Paladin's biggest defensive mechanic. So even though the pally Blocked he will still get hit.

DKs on the other hand have high amounts of Parry. Now correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't parry avoid the hit all together?

No I do not see a pattern. At least one that makes sense. OMG so you don't have block, that is probably Because you do not carry a shield. Now lets look at the REAL numbers shall we.

• The Paladin and the Death Knight used as examples BOTH have a 2830-2880 Gear score on WoW-Heroes.
• Due to the rules of MMO-Champion Forums, I can not link them. As they are not my Characters.

10k Hit on a Paladin

• Paladin blocks 2k
• The Paladin absorbs 480 Damage is through Improved Righteous Fury.
• The Paladin absorbs 226 Damage from Blessing of Sanctuary
• Another 219 from Shield of the Templar.
• The Paladin in this case has 27000 Armor, after talents.
• 4378 Damage is mitigated through armor.
• The Paladin takes 2697 Damage
• Roughly 73% of the damage is mitigated.

10k Hit on a Death Knight

• Death Knight absorbs 1k from Frost Presence with Improved Frost Presence
• Death Knight absorbs 1800 more damage from Bone Shield
• The Death Knight is equally geared to the Paladin, but only has 18.5k Armor, after talents.
• The Death Knight has Frost Presence, increasing their Armor to 29600
• 4608 Damage is mitigated through armor.
• The Death Knight takes 2592 Damage
• Roughly 74% of the damage is mitigated.

20k Hit on a Paladin

• Paladin blocks 2k
• The Paladin absorbs 1080 Damage is through Improved Righteous Fury.
• The Paladin absorbs 508 Damage from Blessing of Sanctuary
• Another 492 from Shield of the Templar.
• The Paladin in this case has 27000 Armor, after talents.
• 9851 Damage is mitigated through armor.
• The Paladin takes 6069 Damage
• Roughly 70% of the damage is mitigated.

20k Hit on a Death Knight

• Death Knight absorbs 2k from Frost Presence with Improved Frost Presence
• Lets assume the Death Knight does not have Bone Shield active.
• The Death Knight is equally geared to the Paladin, but only has 18.5k Armor, after talents.
• The Death Knight has Frost Presence, increasing their Armor to 29600
• 11524 Damage is mitigated through armor.
• The Death Knight takes 6476 Damage
• Roughly 68% of the damage is mitigated.

Looks pretty Even to me... But wait, you wanted to say that Paladins take WAY less damage. We disproved physical damage. Maybe you are right with spell damage, lets check.

10k SPELL on a Paladin

• The Paladin absorbs 300 Damage from Blessing of Sanctuary
• The Paladin absorbs an additional 582 Damage from Guarded by the Light.
• Another 547 Damage is absorbed through Improved Righteous Fury.
• Another 257 from Shield of the Templar.
• Paladin blocks 0 Damage, huh can't block spells
• The Paladin in this case has 27000 Armor, after talents.
• 0 Damage is mitigated through armor, huh armor is null too.
• The Paladin takes 8314 Damage
• Roughly 17% of the damage is mitigated.

10k SPELL on a Death Knight

• Death Knight absorbs 1k from Frost Presence with Improved Frost Presence
• Lets assume the Death Knight does not have Bone Shield active. I really want to help you out here.
• Lets also assume the Death Knight does NOT have Anti-Magic Zone or Magic suppression.
• The Death Knight is equally geared to the Paladin, but only has 18.5k Armor, after talents.
• The Death Knight has Frost Presence, increasing their Armor to 29600
• 0 Damage is mitigated through armor.
• The Death Knight knows the spell is coming and uses his Anti-Magic Shell, because any good tank has DBM.
• The Death Knight takes 0 Damage
• 100% of the damage is mitigated.

And you can say "Oh, my Anti-Magic Shell was on cool down, cause it has a LONG 45 second cool down." Well then even if you had your Bone Shield up you would take less Spell damage than a Paladin. And if both abilities are on cool down then you are a novice tank and need to learn when to use them.

1) No need to swear in a forum, it doesn't help get your point across.
2) Assinine is spelled Asinine
3) It is not Asinine. I just proved, with REAL FORMULAS in use, that your views were wrong.
4) the references to formulas are linked at the bottom of my post... Feel free to check the math.

• The Paladin and the Death Knight used as examples BOTH have a 2830-2880 Gear score on WoW-Heroes.
• Due to the rules of MMO-Champion Forums, I can not link them. As they are not my Characters.

Paladin HEALTH

• The Paladin has 40k Health Unbuffed, As Wow-Heroes shows characters with no buffs on.
• The Paladin can add 4k Health with Greater Blessing of Sanctuary
• The Paladin can NOT use Blessing of Kings, so do not try to reply with that. 1 Paladin, 1 Blessing...
• The Paladin has a total Health of 44k, SELF BUFFED. EVERYONE can get the same raid buffs.

Death Knight HEALTH

• The Death Knight has 35k Heath Unbuffed, As Wow-Heroes shows characters with no buffs on.
• The Death Knight can add 2.1k Health with Frost Presence.
• The Death Knight has a total Health of 37.1k, SELF BUFFED. EVERYONE can get the same raid buffs.

So your views on the class mechanics of Health are correct. An Equally Geared Paladin will have more health than a Death Knight.

THREAT

• Threat is generated by a person's skill with their character. Effected by the abilities used and timing.
• Nothing Else needs Said about threat. If you need pointers, look up threat rotations.

MITIGATION

• We covered this above.
• Death Knights have better mitigation against Melee AND Spells than a Paladin. Especially if the Paladin does not block the attack.

Death Knight AVOIDANCE

• The Death Knight in my examples has 29.85% Dodge
• The Death Knight in my examples has 21.1% Parry
• This gives the Death Knight 50.95% Avoidance Chance

Paladin AVOIDANCE

• The Paladin in my examples has 27.72% Dodge
• The Paladin in my examples has 19.39% Parry
• This gives the Paladin 47.11% Avoidance Chance

Looks as if the Death Knight not only can mitigate more damage, but also avoids more damage. Please explain to US ALL where you figure ANYONE can get 130% avoidance!!!

I had to quote this part again to point out how absurd it is.

1) "Unhittable" is the same as Avoidance. Meaning you do NOT get hit.
2) Block is not in the same category as avoidance.
3) Block does NOT make you avoid the damage. It merely absorbs SOME of the physical damage.
4) Above we covered how a Death Knight's mitigation makes up for the amount of damage a Paladin CAN block.
5) Block is NOT 100%. Death Knight mitigation IS.
6) Even if a Paladin does block, they STILL GET HIT!!!

Learn your rotations and cool downs is not a problem. Enough said about this...

You really don't get what he ORIGINALLY MEANT!!!

He is not talking about HIM using Lay on Hands. All Paladins get this spell, and if a HOLY PALADIN uses this at the wrong time. It CAN & WILL mess up the rotation and use of a survival spell by the Protection Paladin. As it will add a debuff to the player it is USED ON. This Debuff stops a Protection Paladin from being able to use 5 Different Abilities on himself for 2 minutes.

It would be the same as if a healer used a spell on you, but that spell stopped the use of your Icebound Fortitude by adding a 2 minute Debuff to you. So even if your Icebound Fortitude cool down is ready, the debuff stops you from casting it.


__________________________________________________________________________________________ _________________________________________________________
REFERENCES
http://www.wowwiki.com/Formulasamage_reduction

I don't even know where to begin....lol.
Ok here goes...Bone shield is deep UH, Impr Frost Pres is deep Frost, Will of the necro is deep Blood if we had 130 talent points then it might be possible LOL.
No one is an UH tank, most are blood which btw doesn't have Bone shield or impr Frost pres. Only for a highly magical gimmick fight would you ever go UH.

All Tanks do NOT have the same health.
Avg Druid is around 56-58k raid buffed
Avg Paly 54-56k
Avg Warr 53-54
Avg DK blood 52-54 Frost 50-51

It's actually kind of funny, in your attempt to prove me wrong by presenting the "numbers" you actually proved me right.
You pretty much proved that a DK would need to spec 43/32/36 and have the best def talents from each tree overlapping to be on par with a pally.
Thanks LOL.

Don't even talk to me about threat rotations, as a pally you don't even grasp the concept with your 5 button whackamo. I played a warrior since beta, believe me i know all about threat rotations, REAL threat rotations.

The extra 6% healing i specified was from imp dev aura, Now i know what you're going to say in that a holy pally would cover this in 25's and you'd be right but there isn't always another pally in 5's and 10's either.

Lets break this down real simple for you
DK vs Pally

Stam bonuses
Blood 11% Frost 8% Pally 14%

Flat Damage reduction
Blood 13% Frost 15% Pally 15%

Avoidance
It's about the same with Frost DK's holding a slight edge on both pally's and Blood dk's.
Yes DK's get bonus parry rating from str but we don't have a 5% parry talent either so it ends up a wash.

Unhittable
Pally wins this by miles as has already been discussed.

Armor
Dk should win this by about 2-3k which vs a level 83 equates to about 2% base and around variable Midigation depending on the base hit.

Block
Well what can i say, Pally's win and not only that but you block everything that gets by your avoidance. You should never actually take a regular hit ever single target.
Going by your 2k block number which i agree with (i have seen pallies with a lil more and a lil less but 2k is a good avg) the only time a DK even comes close to your over all midigation is on a boss that hits very very hard and swings very very slowly so that our extra armor actually comes into play.
But hey...in the new IC Bliz has already said bosses are going to hit for less but do so quicker so who wins again....yep, block and fake block (druid bubble) tanks.

So in the end the ONLY advantage DK's have on pallies is armor and for that extra armor is equal what you get from your 2k block the org hit before armor would have to be in the 100k range. Diff between 70% armor and 68% armor on a 100k hit is 32k-30k = 2k.

Only thing that made sense at all really in your post was about DK's and magic.
Yep that's great, DK's are going to be the 1 fight gimmick tanks, that's fantastic....

See the diff here is when we DK's got nerfed we knew it was coming. We knew we were OP running around armor capped with 54k health in ULD gear and another 5% parry. You on the other hand don't realise how far above everyone else you are atm and QQ at the slightest nerf (which this is btw) like a pack of wild dogs in heat.
Problem is in true and normal bliz fashion we got over nerfed and suffer below all other tanks (sorry Druids, i love ya's and all and feel for your issues aswell but you are still better overall =D ).

[Atang]

I don't even know where to begin....lol.
Ok here goes...Bone shield is deep UH, Impr Frost Pres is deep Frost, Will of the necro is deep Blood if we had 130 talent points then it might be possible LOL.

Learn to read. There is NO place that I said u had Imp Frost Pres, Bone Shield, and Will of the Necro AT THE SAME TIME. I did compare your Will of the necro to a Paladins Argent Defender. It is however possible to have Imp Frost Pres AND Bone shield. But that is determined by what spec you want.

No one is an UH tank, most are blood which btw doesn't have Bone shield or impr Frost pres. Only for a highly magical gimmick fight would you ever go UH.

Again I do not control your spec. There such a thing as a Deep Ret Healing pally too. That does not mean it is mainstream, but it works for them.

All Tanks do NOT have the same health.
Avg Druid is around 56-58k raid buffed
Avg Paly 54-56k
Avg Warr 53-54
Avg DK blood 52-54 Frost 50-51

• The Paladin and the Death Knight used as examples BOTH have a 2830-2880 Gear score on WoW-Heroes.
• Due to the rules of MMO-Champion Forums, I can not link them. As they are not my Characters.

Paladin HEALTH

• The Paladin has 40k Health Unbuffed, As Wow-Heroes shows characters with no buffs on.
• The Paladin can add 4k Health with Greater Blessing of Sanctuary
• The Paladin can NOT use Blessing of Kings, so do not try to reply with that. 1 Paladin, 1 Blessing...
• The Paladin has a total Health of 44k, SELF BUFFED. EVERYONE can get the same raid buffs.

Death Knight HEALTH

• The Death Knight has 35k Heath Unbuffed, As Wow-Heroes shows characters with no buffs on.
• The Death Knight can add 2.1k Health with Frost Presence.
• The Death Knight has a total Health of 37.1k, SELF BUFFED. EVERYONE can get the same raid buffs.

So your views on the class mechanics of Health are correct. An Equally Geared Paladin will have more health than a Death Knight.

Again Learn to read. I never disagreed that a paladin would have more Health, I was pointing out the numbers.

It's actually kind of funny, in your attempt to prove me wrong by presenting the "numbers" you actually proved me right.
You pretty much proved that a DK would need to spec 43/32/36 and have the best def talents from each tree overlapping to be on par with a pally.
Thanks LOL.

1) I never presented any talent build
2) I never stated any talents IN THE SAME SECTION, that would require more than 61 talents.
3) Paragraphs are weird like that, breaking up different thoughts.
4) yes you can not get the BEST defencive talents from each tree at once. I think Bliz did this intentionally, since DKs are the ONLY class that can tank with ANY talent tree.
5) I have already proved through mitigation that a DK is ALREADY on par, with or without bone shield.

Don't even talk to me about threat rotations, as a pally you don't even grasp the concept with your 5 button whackamo. I played a warrior since beta, believe me i know all about threat rotations, REAL threat rotations.

"My typical rotation is: IT -> PS -> HS -> HS -> Obl"

Quoted from an actual DK tank. Hmm doesn't seem to different from a "5 button whackamo."

The extra 6% healing i specified was from imp dev aura, Now i know what you're going to say in that a holy pally would cover this in 25's and you'd be right but there isn't always another pally in 5's and 10's either.

You are right, I am sorry. I overlooked that talent.

Lets break this down real simple for you
DK vs Pally

Stam bonuses
Blood 11% Frost 8% Pally 14%

I already agreed that a Paladin will have more Health than a DK.

Flat Damage reduction
Blood 13% Frost 15% Pally 15%

Damage reduction is not stacking. Therefore 10% Damage absorbtion + 6% Damage absorbtion, does NOT equal 16% flat Damage Reduction. There is no Such thing as a Flat Damage Reduction, unless you are talking about 1 talent or ability. As soon as you throw more talents or abilities into the mix then more math is needed then just 10% + 6%.

Avoidance
It's about the same with Frost DK's holding a slight edge on both pally's and Blood dk's.
Yes DK's get bonus parry rating from str but we don't have a 5% parry talent either so it ends up a wash.

Wouldn't it be nice if it was a wash? No sorry, It doesn't work that way. You get 25% parry rating for your strength. Meaning you can go WELL above 5%. On top of that, Raid buffs will increase it further. The ability that grants u this Parry rating is also Passive and given to EVERY DK. Paladins have to spend talent points into theirs to get it. 1000 Strength for a DK = 5% parry. I know ALOT of DKs that get well above 1k Str, especially Buffed.

Unhittable
Pally wins this by miles as has already been discussed.

WTF is unhittable? You mean Avoidance? Well you just covered Avoidance. Are you trying to make it seem like Paladins get some OTHER mechanic to avoid damage that no other class gets?

Armor
Dk should win this by about 2-3k which vs a level 83 equates to about 2% base and around variable Midigation depending on the base hit.

No arguments... DKs have more armor, Paladins have more health.

Block
Well what can i say, Pally's win and not only that but you block everything that gets by your avoidance. You should never actually take a regular hit ever single target.
Going by your 2k block number which i agree with (i have seen pallies with a lil more and a lil less but 2k is a good avg) the only time a DK even comes close to your over all midigation is on a boss that hits very very hard and swings very very slowly so that our extra armor actually comes into play.
But hey...in the new IC Bliz has already said bosses are going to hit for less but do so quicker so who wins again....yep, block and fake block (druid bubble) tanks.

I hate to break it to you, but armor comes into play in EVERY hit. Fast or slow. A paladin will block 60-70%. This does not mean they block EVERYTHING, as you said. A DKs mitigation is the same as a Paladin that DOES BLOCK. So in effect we are actually not mitigating as much damage the 30% of the time our Block Misses, as a DK would ALL THE TIME.

Only thing that made sense at all really in your post was about DK's and magic.
Yep that's great, DK's are going to be the 1 fight gimmick tanks, that's fantastic....

You mock the 1 thing that makes you different from ANY OTHER TANK IN THE GAME!!

See the diff here is when we DK's got nerfed we knew it was coming. We knew we were OP running around armor capped with 54k health in ULD gear and another 5% parry. You on the other hand don't realise how far above everyone else you are atm and QQ at the slightest nerf (which this is btw) like a pack of wild dogs in heat.
Problem is in true and normal bliz fashion we got over nerfed and suffer below all other tanks (sorry Druids, i love ya's and all and feel for your issues aswell but you are still better overall =D ).

Paladins don't know about nerfs?

Paladins were the most OP class when Wow first came out in 2004. Since then Blizard has had ALOT of time to nerf them down. So I am sorry if you come in as the new kid on the block and get nerfed down quickly. The paladin you play beside today is NOTHING like the one that originally released in 2004.

I will Paste my Reply to this "Nerf" thing again... maybe this time u will read it. The nerf is not even in the CONTROL of the Protection Paladin. Its the same as someone else clicking your Icebound Fortitude FOR YOU, whenever they want. Not when YOU WANT.

He is not talking about HIM using Lay on Hands. All Paladins get this spell, and if a HOLY PALADIN uses this at the wrong time. It CAN & WILL mess up the rotation and use of a survival spell by the Protection Paladin. As it will add a debuff to the player it is USED ON. This Debuff stops a Protection Paladin from being able to use 5 Different Abilities on himself for 2 minutes.

It would be the same as if a healer used a spell on you, but that spell stopped the use of your Icebound Fortitude by adding a 2 minute Debuff to you. So even if your Icebound Fortitude cool down is ready, the debuff stops you from casting it.

[Atang]

so in this talent build he has imp frost pres and bone armour which are all defensive cooldowns from 2 different trees? if ur just lookin at all cds and doin the maths then ur numbers r off, so saying ull mit dmg with imp frost then further more with bone armour which will loose its charge after wat 5 secdons in end content is useless maths.

Each bone has an internal cool down of 3 seconds. So If you are glyphed for Bone armor to add 1 bone. The buff will last AT LEAST 15 seconds. That is if you get hit atleast once every 3 seconds, and do not dodge or parry the attack.

It is possible to talent for Bone Armor AND Imp Frost Pres.

[buzon01]

i would like too see this spec and how many ppl use it u drop top tiers

[Corian]

Learn to read. There is NO place that I said u had Imp Frost Pres, Bone Shield, and Will of the Necro AT THE SAME TIME. I did compare your Will of the necro to a Paladins Argent Defender. It is however possible to have Imp Frost Pres AND Bone shield. But that is determined by what spec you want.
It's not possible to have both and tank worth spit, stop saying it's a choice, it is NOT!

Again I do not control your spec. There such a thing as a Deep Ret Healing pally too. That does not mean it is mainstream, but it works for them.


Again Learn to read. I never disagreed that a paladin would have more Health, I was pointing out the numbers.

1) I never presented any talent build
2) I never stated any talents IN THE SAME SECTION, that would require more than 61 talents.
3) Paragraphs are weird like that, breaking up different thoughts.
4) yes you can not get the BEST defencive talents from each tree at once. I think Bliz did this intentionally, since DKs are the ONLY class that can tank with ANY talent tree.
5) I have already proved through mitigation that a DK is ALREADY on par, with or without bone shield.

"My typical rotation is: IT -> PS -> HS -> HS -> Obl"

Quoted from an actual DK tank. Hmm doesn't seem to different from a "5 button whackamo."
Not going to lie to you, DK rotations are not overly complicated BUT they are more so than Pally rotations. You still have to prepare for and allocate/save resources for D&D, cool downs either from runes or runic power. It's not just a matter of hitting w/e lights up. If you don't have runes or runic power on hand for CD's and/or addidional adds, you're boned as DK.


You are right, I am sorry. I overlooked that talent.


I already agreed that a Paladin will have more Health than a DK.

Damage reduction is not stacking. Therefore 10% Damage absorbtion + 6% Damage absorbtion, does NOT equal 16% flat Damage Reduction. There is no Such thing as a Flat Damage Reduction, unless you are talking about 1 talent or ability. As soon as you throw more talents or abilities into the mix then more math is needed then just 10% + 6%.
My bad...pally's have 6+3+3+3, DK's have 8(10)+5, either way it's a wash.

Wouldn't it be nice if it was a wash? No sorry, It doesn't work that way. You get 25% parry rating for your strength. Meaning you can go WELL above 5%. On top of that, Raid buffs will increase it further. The ability that grants u this Parry rating is also Passive and given to EVERY DK. Paladins have to spend talent points into theirs to get it. 1000 Strength for a DK = 5% parry. I know ALOT of DKs that get well above 1k Str, especially Buffed.
WTF are you talking about? Go look up any dk or any Pally and you'll quickly discover their parry numbers are almost identical, even raid buffed with dim returns in effect our parry might go up .5-.6% for at most a 1% diff. Yes that's called a wash!

WTF is unhittable? You mean Avoidance? Well you just covered Avoidance. Are you trying to make it seem like Paladins get some OTHER mechanic to avoid damage that no other class gets?
See in this paragraph alone it shows your absolute lack of understanding.
I will however explain it to you so you do understand.
Pally on avg has 28 dodge/22 parry/12 not to be hit/12 block 74% not to take a full hit
Pally activates Holy shield and now has a 104% chance of not taking a full hit. Now let me make this real simple, it means you are completely UNHITTABLE and have absolutely no chance of taking a full hit, anything that does hit you will be reduced by your block value. Tack on another 30% for 134% unhittable if redoubt is up aswell.
You are reducing every single hit against you by your block value. YOU NEVER TAKE A FULL HIT EVER!
DK on the other hand on avg we're looking at 28dodge/23 parry/12 not to be hit....that's it for a total of 63% not to take a full hit or even more simple for you, we take full hits 37% of the time.
Since the only REAL diff's between the 2 of us is our extra armor and your block it means you midigate 2k every hit and we midigate 2% end damage.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out who is taking less damage there heh.

No arguments... DKs have more armor, Paladins have more health.

I hate to break it to you, but armor comes into play in EVERY hit. Fast or slow. A paladin will block 60-70%. This does not mean they block EVERYTHING, as you said. A DKs mitigation is the same as a Paladin that DOES BLOCK. So in effect we are actually not mitigating as much damage the 30% of the time our Block Misses, as a DK would ALL THE TIME.
Your blocks don't miss as explained above so this whole paragraph is wrong and moot.

You mock the 1 thing that makes you different from ANY OTHER TANK IN THE GAME!!
Yep. we're a gimmick tank, said that already lol.

Paladins don't know about nerfs?

Paladins were the most OP class when Wow first came out in 2004. Since then Blizard has had ALOT of time to nerf them down. So I am sorry if you come in as the new kid on the block and get nerfed down quickly. The paladin you play beside today is NOTHING like the one that originally released in 2004.

LOL!!!! Dude, I was there at release in 04, you obviously were NOT!
Holy was THE only viable spec for pallies till BC was released. RET and PROT were absolute jokes before that. A Holy pally could heal tank better than a prot could tank and a Holy pally stacking spell damg could do more damage than a Ret could swinging away.
LOL@ Ret pallies with a 6.0-7.0 speed 2-hander hoping to get a Seal of Command proc from their auto swings or living long enough to unload a reck bomb.
Prot wasn't even viable till BC and ret even further along till about halfway through BC.
Trying to say Pallies were the most OP class at release will only get you laughed at dude....HARD!

I will Paste my Reply to this "Nerf" thing again... maybe this time u will read it. The nerf is not even in the CONTROL of the Protection Paladin. Its the same as someone else clicking your Icebound Fortitude FOR YOU, whenever they want. Not when YOU WANT.
...and i will repeat what i have said twice now...comparing a long cooldown that you may or may not have to use to a cooldown that HAS to be used almost everytime its' up just to compete as a tank is still a retarded comparision.

Either way, i'm done here. If you don't understand how good of a place you're in atm as a prot pally and want to continue to bitch about MINOR nerf then so be it.
I will warn you though....no one is listening, they are only laughing sir.

[prZ]

OMG, shaman set is called after a frost witch? Can't wait to see how that tier will look like! ;D

[anymetal]

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[obmaj]

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