Haste, at what point is it too much?

[Valunii]

Hi all, like title says - when would stacking haste be less beneficial for me, if possible..?

I run the standard Arcane spec, and am sitting at 709 haste unbuffed. I know this is a good amount for Arcane, but does haste become less valuable after that point or should I continue stacking?

I just dont want it to make me start running oom faster. If anyone could advise me, id greatly appreciate it.

[torny]

however valuable haste is.. Spellpower is still a more valuable stat .. you don't have to worry about getting too much haste though.. your cap is 36%(woa totem, your 6% haste talent and a retardin or moonkin buff will make your haste 50%(GCD cap). and then haste will still be your second most valuable stat because AB is your main spell not AM.. So until you hit 75% haste (this is including all raid buffs previously mentioned..) stacking haste is possible but Spellpower will still increase your DPS THAT much more.

Edited: Silly mistake

[Milamber]

Hi all, like title says - when would stacking haste be less beneficial for me, if possible..?

I run the standard Arcane spec, and am sitting at 709 haste unbuffed. I know this is a good amount for Arcane, but does haste become less valuable after that point or should I continue stacking?

I just dont want it to make me start running oom faster. If anyone could advise me, id greatly appreciate it.

1. You have too much haste when your main spells need < 1 second to cast.
2. CD-Stacking is a good thing
3. with cd stacking you can already reach the cap or be overcapped
4. if you are overcapped with cd-stacking you have to split some of the cds
5. if you split your cds you can still pile tons of haste on your gear.

[Valunii]

Oh wow thanks, I wasnt aware of the 34% soft cap - thanks for that info.

And I always stack my CD's, usually waiting for Heroism or earlier if I know they'll be up again by then.
Does this mean I really should just go for more SP?

[Nillo]

Oh wow thanks, I wasnt aware of the 34% soft cap - thanks for that info.

The 34% softcap doesn't apply to arcane, because both of your main spells have a 2.5 sec casttime, so the cap is at 150%, which is pretty much unreachable even with Icy Veins + Heroism.

34% softcap is for spells like Arcane Barrage (you should only use this while moving so it doesn't matter anyway), Mirror Images (well who cares) and other stuff that is either instant or has a 1.5 sec casttime.

[torny]

The 34% softcap doesn't apply to arcane, because both of your main spells have a 2.5 sec casttime, so the cap is at 150%, which is pretty much unreachable even with Icy Veins + Heroism.

34% softcap is for spells like Arcane Barrage (you should only use this while moving so it doesn't matter anyway), Mirror Images (well who cares) and other stuff that is either instant or has a 1.5 sec casttime.

Arcane missile with proc is 2 seconds? thus 50% would be its cap?(soft cap 34%)
just stack sp Icy vein and heroism does the haste needs...
But yes you should really just put sp gems in red sp haste in yellow and ofcourse gear haste over crit."as in stats on gear which you cant change"

You didn't ask for gem advice but see it as a freebee
GL

PS: ...

so the cap is at 150%, which is pretty much unreachable even with Icy Veins + Heroism.

You are aware that 100% haste means all spells are instant right? the haste cap of 2.5 = 75%

[Nillo]

Arcane missile with proc is 2 seconds?
thus 50% would be its cap?(soft cap 34%)
just stack sp Icy vein and heroism does the haste needs...
But yes you should really just put sp gems in red sp haste in yellow and ofcourse gear haste over crit."as in stats on gear which you cant change"
PS: ...You are aware that 100% haste means all spells are instant right? the haste cap of 2.5 = 75%

#1 Missiles are 5 sec base and 2.5 sec with proc
#2 haste works like Casttime = Base/(1+haste) NOT like Casttime = Base*(1-haste), so you need 150% haste to get a 2.5 sec spell down to 1 second....

PS: You fail big time.

[Deleted]

your cap is 34%(woa totem, your 6% haste talent and a retardin or moonkin buff will make your haste 50%(GCD cap).

so 34% base + 5% from Wrath of air + 6% haste from netherwind presence + 3% haste from swift retribution equals 50%? interesting. i thought 34+6=40, and 5+3=8, and 40+8= 48.

unless i am missing some talents that give you 2% haste. but i could not find any in the arcane tree.

also, forgive me my rather arrogant way of saying this, but that is just my personal style.

edit: or is haste multiplicative? i don't know it myself, ret paladins don't value haste that much.

[torny]

so 34% base + 5% from Wrath of air + 6% haste from netherwind presence + 3% haste from swift retribution equals 50%? interesting. i thought 34+6=40, and 5+3=8, and 40+8= 48.

unless i am missing some talents that give you 2% haste. but i could not find any in the arcane tree.

also, forgive me my rather arrogant way of saying this, but that is just my personal style.

edit: or is haste multiplicative? i don't know it myself, ret paladins don't value haste that much.

Haste is multiplicative but if i recall for some reason woa totem and the druid retri buff stack if they changed it already.. im not sure of that anyways was a small mistake the 34% my bad didn't accually calculate on the spot for some reason i have 34% as mage soft cap:/ Anyhow i shouldn't reply to the rocket scientist ...

but 150% haste would that make my AB spell shoot faster than instant spells or will my instant spells do twice as much dmg??? sarcasme? yes you failing at maths?? yes...

Edit: I forgot to mention this.. but haste is indeed based on the base cast time and 36% would also be a wrong cap .. i dont feel like doing the maths as of now tho at work :P

[Nillo]

but 150% haste would that make my AB spell shoot faster than instant spells or will my instant spells do twice as much dmg??? sarcasme? yes you failing at maths?? yes...

I already explained how haste works.... 150% haste means you can cast 150% more spells in the same time.... => 2.5 times as fast => a 2.5 sec spell becomes a 1sec spell...
You're the one who's failing both at math and thinking with logic (why the hell would they make haste work the way you think it does...).

so 34% base + 5% from Wrath of air + 6% haste from netherwind presence + 3% haste from swift retribution equals 50%? interesting. i thought 34+6=40, and 5+3=8, and 40+8= 48.

34% might actually be correct, because it multiplies with buffs from outside:
34%+6%=40% -> you have 140% castspeed multiplied by 1.08 is ~ 151%

[Melonberry]

Haste is multiplicative but if i recall for some reason woa totem and the druid retri buff stack if they changed it already.. im not sure of that anyways was a small mistake the 34% my bad didn't accually calculate on the spot for some reason i have 34% as mage soft cap:/ Anyhow i shouldn't reply to the rocket scientist ...

but 150% haste would that make my AB spell shoot faster than instant spells or will my instant spells do twice as much dmg??? sarcasme? yes you failing at maths?? yes...

Edit: I forgot to mention this.. but haste is indeed based on the base cast time and 36% would also be a wrong cap .. i dont feel like doing the maths as of now tho at work :P

100% haste means you can cast 100% more spells in the same time. AKA you can cast twice as many spells in the same time. It does not mean a 100% reduction in cast time. (there is a GCD anyways)

You are bad at this game.

Overall, haste almost never loses its value, even if you drop below 1 second casts during bloodlust, it'll likely still be better than crit. Bloodlust is up maybe 10% of the fight, which means it would lose 10% of its value. Since the values change based on your current stats, you can figure out the breaking point yourself.

[Daytrader]

however valuable haste is.. Spellpower is still a more valuable stat ..

Not always true. Once I reached about 3500 SP(raid buffed) and 750 haste, haste (point for point) became slightly better than SP. The way to check this is by looking at your relative stat values in Rawr.

Come to think of it, this whole topic could be answered by Rawr.

Anyway, to answer this question conceptually rather than mathmatically:

1. You can't reach haste cap with gear alone.
2. You can reach haste cap with CD stacking.

If you find that your spells are less than 1 sec cast time using multiple CDs, then stagger those CDs.

Any haste that brings you below the 1 sec GCD cap is wasted. However I'm sure there is a point where the gain from going a little over the cap is greater than staggering the CDs to avoid going over the cap. For example, if, with hero and IV poped, you are at .99 sec cast time, this might be better than popping them at different times to avoid going over the cap.

I'm sure there is a fixed amount of haste rating that is optimal with perfect raid comp, where hero and IV will bring your cast time to exactly 1 sec. I do not know what this number is at this time. Prolly somewhere between 750 and 850. (edit: this might be considering the inclusion of Scale of the Fates, I'm not sure. just a off hand ball park).

I'm going to go troll the EJ forums to see if i can find it.

[Milamber]

2. You can reach haste cap with CD stacking.
If you find that your spells are less than 1 sec cast time using multiple CDs, then stagger those CDs.
I'm sure there is a fixed amount of haste rating that is optimal with perfect raid comp, where hero and IV will bring your cast time to exactly 1 sec.

Since I plan on "staggering/splitting" my cds when the need arises my personal haste cap for gear is:
Gear + Bloodlust + Totem + Talent + Moonkin + Retribution Pally = 1 Second ABs. ( = 1 CD plus all the static stuff)
And that is stil waaaaaaaaaaaays off.

Edit: 58% on gear.

[Takanasi]

PS: ...You are aware that 100% haste means all spells are instant right? the haste cap of 2.5 = 75%

Actually, haste rating doesn't reduce the casting time of a given spell, it increases your casting speed. They're not the same thing.

100% haste would mean your spell takes 50% of its base cast time to cast.

[Milamber]

PS: ...You are aware that 100% haste means all spells are instant right? the haste cap of 2.5 = 75%

Takanasi is right.
Haste cannot make your spells instant. At least in theory. In practice yes, because blizzard round to the 4th digit after the dot.

[Daytrader]

I found this equation that when you solve for X gives you the amount of haste from gear you need to bring your AB to 1 second with IV and Heroism.

1% haste = 32.78998947 rating
Base cast time = 2.5
6% from Talents
5% from Totem
3% from Druid/Pally
30% from Heroism
20% from IV

final_cast_time = 2.5 / (1 + X/32.78998947/100) / 1.06 / 1.05 / 1.03 / 1.3 / 1.2 = 1


Edit: I got X = 1304.79.

Anyone else get the same answer?
Anyone good at math care to solve for X. Its been a while since I had to do this.

Additional Info:

1304.79/32.78998947 = 39.793275%

With Potion of Speed (400 rating): 804.79/32.78998947 = 24.543771%

With Scale of the Fates (432 rating): 872.79/32.78998947 = 26.617574%

With Haste Potion and Scale of the Fates (832 rating): 372.79/32.78998947 = 11.369018%

[Caeldeth]

What Daytrader said, ty, I was just about to post all the math.

Your haste cap providing you use talisman and abyssal (both are better than scale) is roughly 1300 haste rating.

/thread

[DirewolfX]

What Daytrader said, ty, I was just about to post all the math.

Your haste cap providing you use talisman and abyssal (both are better than scale) is roughly 1300 haste rating.

/thread

Not in my Rawr. Talisman is close and will start to edge out Scale if I get a few more upgrades, but Abyssal Rune is still 20 dps behind.

[Caeldeth]

then you need more haste, when you start getting good haste (800+) scales value begins to plummet.

Until then, yea I can see scales value still being good.

[DirewolfX]

then you need more haste, when you start getting good haste (800+) scales value begins to plummet.

Until then, yea I can see scales value still being good.

It seems to only occur if I equip Talisman of Resurgence (and stack a lot of haste). I suspect the conflicting cooldowns of the two items reduces the value of Scale of Fates in Rawr, while the passive haste of Abyssal Rune boosts the power of Talisman of Resurgence's cooldown. When paired with Reign of the Dead, Scale of Fates always wins.

Also, 800+ haste is a pretty ridiculous amount of haste without the 84 from Abyssal Rune. You need pretty close to best in slot pre-heroic to reach that point. If I swap my offhand to Chalice of Benedictus (or find a second haste ring), I'll break 800 without Abyssal Rune. Still, Scale of Fates beats out Abyssal Rune, except in the very specific pairing of Talisman of Resurgence/Abyssal Rune.

So basically, if you can break 800+ haste rating without Abyssal Rune and you have Talisman of Resurgence as your other trinket, then Abyssal Rune is superior to Scale of Fates. Otherwise, stick with Scale.