Are Boomkins broken?

[Deleted]

Im reading these forums seeing people posting all this about * oh I know a boomkin who does 8k dps blah blah blah * and I have yet to see a WOL to prove it. Also the moonkin class is not broken , not at all....just do 30 sec of research and find out your rotation/ gear choices.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/j...?s=5109&e=5243

Regardless of what logs show, a 2-3 minute fight does not show a real estimate of DPS.

[Deleted]

Qieth there isn't that many fights anymore that last past the 5 minute mark if you think clearly about it... NrB does but that's 3 mobs... Faction champs doesn't even last that long last time I checked (altho that's not a fight to gauge DPS anyway :P ) twins ? jara ? again not that long tbh... Maybe 2-3 minute fights (judging by what I've seen in IC) are becoming more and more popular now-a-days , people I think just love zerging things . Feck even yday I did a hyjal for funsies and just watched as people nuked archimonde without even deCursing I was actually sitting there in disguist lmao "NUKE NUKE NUKE 1 minute zerg LOOK AT MY 12k DPS WOOT ALL CD's POP'd and /OOM" zzzzzzz

[Sidonis]

We're very RNG dependent, as has probably been stated a few times in this thread already, so much so that our DPS on the same fight can vary by 1-2k each time. We have 2 major problems that stagnate our dps:

1) Getting Wrath to proc Lunar Eclipse, as it only has a 60% chance due to it's cast time compared to Starfire's 100% chance on crit to proc Solar Eclipse. Right there you're facing the double RNG, Wrath has to crit, and then Wrath has a 60% chance to proc Eclipse.

2) We have an extremely low haste cap compared to other caster dps classes. Due to Nature's Grace (100% chance on crit to increase the cast time of next spell with a cast time by 20%), and the fact that a talented Wrath has a 1.5 second cast time, this caps our haste at ~400 after factoring in Celestial Focus (3% passive spell haste), Improved Moonkin Aura (another 3% passive haste) and Wrath of Air totem (5% spell haste).

Now, you would think that Problem 2 would solve Problem 1, by forcing us to have more crit (thereby increasing the number of chances Wrath has to proc Eclipse), but there's very limited amounts of +crit leather gear, and an excess of +haste leather gear, which forces us to compete with clothies for +crit gear. Gemming for crit doesn't solve it either, as we still scale better with spellpower overall due to IS and MF. The most you can get away for gemming for crit, is +SP/crit gem in a single yellow socket with a bonus of +7 SP or more.

Now, when the stars align and Wrath procs Lunar in 3 casts or less, then yes, I can pull the 7k dps that Rawr says I can in my gear, on a stand and deliver fight.

[Deleted]

Yes, but then id rather pick NrB if you have to pick a TOTC fight. Its the longest, although it varies a lot between simply using one more DPS and one less healer, as i have shown in previous posts, and that affects DPS quite a lot. But it works for comparing yourself to other classes. Jaraxxus is too random - sometimes the woman is too far away, and you have to switch back to Jaraxxus. Faction Champions is NOT a fight someone would use to compare DPS, Twins is too random, and Anub has too much oppotunity for splash damage and screws everything up if you are one of the few targeted for kiting the spikes.

Point being, Koralon is not a good fight to calculate on, because it's so short :P I think ICC fights will be 5-10 minutes, though, but so far they have a lot of randomness in them. We shall see.

I still hold to my claim that the best fight, currently, to compare DPS on is Deconstructor hard mode. The heart phase evens out on a 5-6+ minute fight, so the DPS difference is marginal between being lucky and being unlucky, there is little to no adds to handle, and the bombs are random enough to hit everybody "pretty much" equally. Its not perfect, but its the longest fight with the least movement and randomness, so it will suffice.

(note again that we have melee taking care of light sparks)

We're very RNG dependent, as has probably been stated a few times in this thread already, so much so that our DPS on the same fight can vary by 1-2k each time. We have 2 major problems that stagnate our dps:

1) Getting Wrath to proc Lunar Eclipse, as it only has a 60% chance due to it's cast time compared to Starfire's 100% chance on crit to proc Solar Eclipse. Right there you're facing the double RNG, Wrath has to crit, and then Wrath has a 60% chance to proc Eclipse.

2) We have an extremely low haste cap compared to other caster dps classes. Due to Nature's Grace (100% chance on crit to increase the cast time of next spell with a cast time by 20%), and the fact that a talented Wrath has a 1.5 second cast time, this caps our haste at ~400 after factoring in Celestial Focus (3% passive spell haste), Improved Moonkin Aura (another 3% passive haste) and Wrath of Air totem (5% spell haste).

Now, you would think that Problem 2 would solve Problem 1, by forcing us to have more crit (thereby increasing the number of chances Wrath has to proc Eclipse), but there's very limited amounts of +crit leather gear, and an excess of +haste leather gear, which forces us to compete with clothies for +crit gear. Gemming for crit doesn't solve it either, as we still scale better with spellpower overall due to IS and MF. The most you can get away for gemming for crit, is +SP/crit gem in a single yellow socket with a bonus of +7 SP or more.

Now, when the stars align and Wrath procs Lunar in 3 casts or less, then yes, I can pull the 7k dps that Rawr says I can in my gear, on a stand and deliver fight.

As we have already established many times over, RNG becomes much less of a problem the higher gear you have. In truth, it takes mere seconds to proc Lunar Eclipse if you are raiding at a T9 level.

[Sidonis]

As we have already established many times over, RNG becomes much less of a problem the higher gear you have. In truth, it takes mere seconds to proc Lunar Eclipse if you are raiding at a T9 level.

It's still a double RNG, and even being in mostly 232/245 gear I still have those pesky occasions where you're talking 10+ wrath casts to get Lunar rolling. That's not good design, no matter how you slice it. For other caster classes, an RNG proc is a nice bonus to their DPS, for Moonkin it -IS- our DPS.

[Deleted]

It's still a double RNG, and even being in mostly 232/245 gear I still have those pesky occasions where you're talking 10+ wrath casts to get Lunar rolling. That's not good design, no matter how you slice it. For other caster classes, an RNG proc is a nice bonus to their DPS, for Moonkin it -IS- our DPS.

True, but for the most part it becomes much, much less of a worry. If you take 10 wraths once, then the next time around you may only have to do two. All you really lose is 15% damage for the duration of you trying to proc eclipse, but if these periods are rare, and throughout a 5+ minute fight you get plenty of fast procs, its not a significant DPS loss.

[Snoofer]

Hey,

Moonkins are better then ever, Tx blizzard for that.
I have not see the gear of the 2 moonkins but 3.2k dps is a kind of low.

I do always 7.5k dps on evry boss Totc 25 man.
On the moment i hitting always the first place white damage done.

There realy good and pure dps but learn to play and seek the good combi for you gear.
A lot of crit haste cape and a lot of spellpower.
Setbonuse still realy important, 1 set bonuss from t8 and t9 is fine.
I play white 4 pieces t9 and the leggs from anub 25 man.

Cya

[Deleted]

Hey,

Moonkins are better then ever, Tx blizzard for that.
I have not see the gear of the 2 moonkins but 3.2k dps is a kind of low.

I do always 7.5k dps on evry boss Totc 25 man.
On the moment i hitting always the first place white damage done.

There realy good and pure dps but learn to play and seek the good combi for you gear.
A lot of crit haste cape and a lot of spellpower.
Setbonuse still realy important, 1 set bonuss from t8 and t9 is fine.
I play white 4 pieces t9 and the leggs from anub 25 man.

Cya

bye ??? Thanks for that ...

- Anyway .... I'd agree with Qieth on the RnG side of things it's actually not that bad , it's just that you will always remember the times you have failed to proc eclipse then the times it's proc'd instantly. I remember complaining awhile ago that I was chaining eclipses and having dots to apply also was just plain annoying. There are a few instances where I will cast 5 wrath's and not proc LE but they are rare. I can't tell you the amount of times I've cast 1 wrath and straight into LE.

[Keilar]

Are Boomkins broken?

Yes! but they are perfect as mascotte!

[Eilt]

Boomkins are only broken in PvP 8)

[Druelle]

To answer the original question. yes i think moonkins are broken. I've also noticed reading blue posts and forums that we won't be fixed anytime soon because 'they' don't think it is a problem.

The bottom line is, why should a high-end guild whose pure casters and pure dps can pull around 8k-9k 'carry' a boomkin?
All the buffs that a boomkin provides can be found with other classes and really with the numbers we pull, it would be more beneficial to the raid to bring in a higher dps char then keep a poor preforming boomkin. As all raid leaders know... that little bit of extra dps could mean the difference of a 2% wipe.

You'd wish that guilds took 'the player not the class' but really... you want to kill bosses and get loots and if you can raise your odds by bringing in an extra mage... why wouldn't you?

[Balduvian]

No, I just saw one in a BG.

[Aluana]

RNG hates me... im at that stage where i should be chaining eclipse like a pro, and i usually do, however in 25 norm beasts last week i went the entire fight with only 3 lunar eclipse procs... then on jaraxxus i procced lunar every wrath cast that could (ie. first crit procced lunar, and every crit after wiseeclipse cancelled solar to enable a lunar proc)... the wrath part of eclipse double-dipping from RNG is broken, and it could be fixed... i still see myself constantly up in the top 5 dps if everything works itself out, and i even occasionally hit #3 (i'll never beat our rogue or unholy dk :-[)

that being said, boomkins arent broken as per say, but we could still do with a bit of a fix...

[Deleted]

To answer the original question. yes i think moonkins are broken. I've also noticed reading blue posts and forums that we won't be fixed anytime soon because 'they' don't think it is a problem.

The bottom line is, why should a high-end guild whose pure casters and pure dps can pull around 8k-9k 'carry' a boomkin?
All the buffs that a boomkin provides can be found with other classes and really with the numbers we pull, it would be more beneficial to the raid to bring in a higher dps char then keep a poor preforming boomkin. As all raid leaders know... that little bit of extra dps could mean the difference of a 2% wipe.

You'd wish that guilds took 'the player not the class' but really... you want to kill bosses and get loots and if you can raise your odds by bringing in an extra mage... why wouldn't you?

You know, i dont even know why my guild bothers with a shadow priest, when i bring hit to the raid. Why bring an elemental shaman, when my haste bonus is bigger than his? We can ditch the death knight, because i put up Earth and Moon. You see where im going here?

You could turn it around on every single class. Why bring X when Y has it. You want to know why? So you know you are freaking covered. Why bring a mage? They only bring intellect, and we can get that from a scroll. What a stupid argument.

Moonkins are comparable to everybody else. If you don't like the short version, go read the full moonkin guide thread, cause im really not going to post everything again. How about i just link you the lastest summary, and then you go figure out how your class works: http://www.mmo-champion.com/class-dr...54/#msg1759654

(i really don't want to stoop to a "lol l2p" level, but im getting a bit sleepy over brand new people, coming in here, posting unargumented claims that we blow, when they wont even bother to read the 30+ threads on the subject. Sorry, its late, im getting tired)

[Lilija]

Brilliant logic. Had I known the way to overcome crappy RNG was to simply feel the spec I would have done that a long time ago.

I'll put it more straight way then. Most moonkins I see keep whining "zomg, RNG, we are broken". Good moonkins are those who try to work around the RNG instead of whining. And it's pretty doable. That is what I call "feeling the spec".

[Deleted]

Why bring an elemental shaman, when my haste bonus is bigger than his?

While i totally agree with your overall point, that part is false. Shamans bring 5% spell haste, we bring 3% to all haste, and both buffs stack.

[Deleted]

While i totally agree with your overall point, that part is false. Shamans bring 5% spell haste, we bring 3% to all haste, and both buffs stack.

I apologize, i know this. My brain told me it was totally sure that our aura was 5%. I even asked it if i should look it up, but it said i didn't have to bother. Meh, it was late :P

[Deleted]

To answer the original question. yes i think moonkins are broken. I've also noticed reading blue posts and forums that we won't be fixed anytime soon because 'they' don't think it is a problem.

The bottom line is, why should a high-end guild whose pure casters and pure dps can pull around 8k-9k 'carry' a boomkin?
All the buffs that a boomkin provides can be found with other classes and really with the numbers we pull, it would be more beneficial to the raid to bring in a higher dps char then keep a poor preforming boomkin. As all raid leaders know... that little bit of extra dps could mean the difference of a 2% wipe.

You'd wish that guilds took 'the player not the class' but really... you want to kill bosses and get loots and if you can raise your odds by bringing in an extra mage... why wouldn't you?

Great first post dude I aboslutly agree with you... IF I WAS IN OPPOSITE LAND ... Why bring 4 other classes that bring 1 classes buff ? If that was the case raids would be composed of 1 feral druid tank , 1 prot warrior , 5 healers (1 of each with 2 resto druids) and 8 blood DK's 8 arcane mages and 1 enahnce shaman and 1 moonkin druid. Guess what ??? No raid will ever be like this.
Balance druids bring the buffs of 4 classes , altho an ele shaman stacks with ours ... we bring a lot more then a Spriest (who as a class imo are in the worst place atm). I think it's partly to do with TBC ... if anyone remembers doing lolwell you stacked 5 shamans and swapped them into the melee group for rolling heroisms and about 3 Spriest maybe even more , if you look at it , blizzard stopped letting you swap peoples groups during combat and also nerf'd ele shaman's DPS cause it was quiet good back then. Also nerf'd heroism. Balance druids were seen quiet a bit in sunwell too just cause of the buffs they brought and again they were stacked in caster groups. Classes that were stacked the most in those days are now suffering the most. Feral druids ... who actually saw a feral druid that was not a tank in sunwell ? I didn't unless he was OT and was allowd DPS on thrash or 1 or so bosses... that was it though. Now you see kitty's in every raid cause of the DPS they bring.

The counter to this is warriors they always have been and always will be a class that really are loved in a raid enviornment based purely (imo) on the fact that they suck ass as a solo class. Just a lil theory on what it's in it's current state.

But saying what you've said about moonkins themselves actually shows a very low intelligence level and thank you for not reading anything that has been said on these forums , your contribution is greatly recieved oh wise lil troll. Back to www.barneyisadinosaur.com/forums for you.

[Cryptic]

Ofc Balance is not broken although you need a little luck you still are somewhere between the mages in the dps fight. Our balance droods are pulling 6-7k dps. Some more practice on the rotation may fix the problem...