Frost raiding DPS in 3.3

[afkalmighty]

He asked "is it fair to say that Frost may become a viable raid spec based on target dummy numbers?" whos gonna respond positive to that huh?

I wasn't using positive/negative in the terms of yes/no...

On another note, in those terms I do agree with you, frost is still not looking good at all.

[Radux]

I think one of the strongest elements (no pun intended) for frost is it's AoE Blizzard. Blizzard will give stacks of Winter's Chill, thus improving overall raid dps on heavy AoE fights. And no I'm not referring to trash. I was referring to a fight such as Deathbringer Saurfang. And I also believe that the world first ToGC 25 Anub kill had a frost mage because of this (actually if I recall it was an accident, but anyways...) and it worked out pretty well for them.

[Peepo]

is it viable?... heck, it's viable now... but you won't top any dps charts anytime soon...

i run a bad (trust me, the build is horrible, i just poured all my points into frost) frost build now in heroics... it's great when fail tank is fail... i don't build up too much aggro, shield, escapes (cold snap, frost nova, ice block) and i punch up decent dps (over 2k)... enough to farm heroics... i've been in naxx 10 thus far and still doing over 2k... not ontop, but high enough to be in the group... once i get my gear up, then it's over to arcane... but i'll still keep my dual spec frost build for farming/pugging heroics and lower raids...

[Azyoulike]

is it viable?... heck, it's viable now... but you won't top any dps charts anytime soon...

i run a bad (trust me, the build is horrible, i just poured all my points into frost) frost build now in heroics... it's great when fail tank is fail... i don't build up too much aggro, shield, escapes (cold snap, frost nova, ice block) and i punch up decent dps (over 2k)... enough to farm heroics... i've been in naxx 10 thus far and still doing over 2k... not ontop, but high enough to be in the group... once i get my gear up, then it's over to arcane... but i'll still keep my dual spec frost build for farming/pugging heroics and lower raids...

Um - I hate to break it to you but viable means - viable in end game, not viable in heroics. Smite spam is viable in heroics.

[Milamber]

I wasn't using positive/negative in the terms of yes/no...

"is it fair to say that Frost will become a viable raid spec based on target dummy numbers?"

heck no

"is it fair to say that Frost may become a viable raid spec based on target dummy numbers?"

yes!

"is it fair to say that Frost may become a viable raid spec based on the patch notes?"

yes!

"is it fair to say that Frost may become a viable raid spec based on deadmines dps of a level 20 mage?"

yes!

[afkalmighty]

no, please, ugh this is going way off course

When I wrote my replys I 'thought' my point was clear but I guess English isn't my first language after all.

I wasn't using positive/negative in the terms of yes/no...

what I was pointing out is not about agreeing or not.

G2G [I hope that means what I think it means] to bed, I'll check for any replys later.

[Deleted]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWJTUAezxAI

Stop saying "no" just because. Test it in a raid like 10 times as frost in different bosses and then test arcane in different bosses THEN say "no" with proof.

[Peepo]

Um - I hate to break it to you but viable means - viable in end game, not viable in heroics. Smite spam is viable in heroics.

well, like i said, i'm using it in heroics and naxx 10 with crappy gear... i think frost would be "viable" in togc and ulduar as well with better gear... the real question isn't whether it's "viable" it's whether it closes the gap in dps from the other two main mage builds... i haven't seen anything to suggest it does yet... and honestly, i hope it doesn't... frost is easy... too easy... i'd hate to think i can out dps most other classes of equal gear by pretty much frostbolt spamming...

and, i don't think a bunch of smite spamming dps will be able to get through a heroic, unless they got an uber tank and healz...

[Tiga]

There's no way to keep up with arcane in TotC/TotGC on most of the fights, but then arcane is a bit overpowered in that instance anyway. We're at 4/5 in 25 man TotGC and I've done 10 man with ease (I play frost).

On Twin Valkyr (heroic), I'm currently on orb duty (wearing fire resist gear), and that's one fight where frost couldn't get even get close to arcane, so as DPS I would have been swapped out or would have had to spec arcane. Orb collecting is pretty much a full time job the way we do it, so the DPS doesn't matter all that much. A shadow priest will probably do more DPS on the move there, but based on tonight's experiences, I survive better and that's currently quite valuable too.

We also did some hard mode 10 mans in Ulduar recently. Doing the ranged tanking for Mimiron/Firefighter was good fun.

I think ranged tanking, add duty, kiting etc add a little bit of nice variety to mage play, so I'm always happy to take on those roles. There's a little bit of guilt that I'm only playing frost, but I'm pretty sure it will be close enough to not be a problem in 3.3 and it was never a problem in TBC (at least for the content that I did at 70). WOTLK has been rather harsh to anyone dedicated to playing frost PvE.

For 10 man raids, replenishment can often be quite valuable and frost does surprisingly well when the group synergy buffs aren't all there (after all, frost's main problem is crit scaling and a lot of raid buffs are in fact crit). AOE winter's chill is also situationally valuable and winter's chill in itself makes the arcane mages a lot more relaxed, since there's no pressure on them to play fire (or for the warlocks to go shadowbolting).

There is a noticeable scaling gap and incanter's absorption makes it pretty dramatic in T9 content. It's too bad that IA can't be moved into the frost tree somewhere (it would just be too powerful combined with ice barrier, I guess).

[afkalmighty]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWJTUAezxAI

Stop saying "no" just because. Test it in a raid like 10 times as frost in different bosses and then test arcane in different bosses THEN say "no" with proof.

rats, I was kinda hoping for a vid of a ptr frost mage in raid enviroment :P

[ephoria]

rats, I was kinda hoping for a vid of a ptr frost mage in raid enviroment :P

haha i was thinking the same then i thought of this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-jHePE6m1Y

[wolfwood888]

I think he was refering to Frostbite. As it would boost dps on a dummy while it dosn't work on a boss. Then again if you are speced into it as a PvE Frost "ur doin it rong".

Frost bite would not increase your dps on dummies, because the 15% FoF proc will ALWAYS proc with forstbite and visa versa, meaning when the RNG "rolls" to find out if it procs it rolls once for both talents.

[nerfproof]

UPDATE TO NUMBERS AND INFORMATION

Frost spec:
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?mage...YeRa,JIN,10747
NOTE: I used glyph of ETERNAL water, not water elemental, but eternal water isn't on the talent builder.


I decided to run until OOM on a dummy. 18.5 minutes of DPS time
pulled about 4348 DPS
again, no deep freeze, no raid buffs.

this does leave me thinking that yes, it'll be even better for encounters like General Vezax, but won't have much else of a use.
going back on to test out arcane again and get better numbers. I'll report them in a new post.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?mage...0,QMJ-RO,10894
This is the spec frost mages should be using come 3.3 to raid with.

[fabian]

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?mage...0,QMJ-RO,10894
This is the spec frost mages should be using come 3.3 to raid with.

Brain Freeze is actually a dps loss after naxx gear, even in naxx gear, it is a very slight dps gain.

[nerfproof]

Brain Freeze is actually a dps loss after naxx gear, even in naxx gear, it is a very slight dps gain.

http://code.google.com/p/simulationc...e#MageT9180053

Scroll down to the frost mage stats and you will see brain freeze is NOT a dps loss period. When used correctly BF is actually a 7% increase to a frost mages dps.

[Ceara]

in case people were lazy and curious, I went onto the PTR and did some preliminary DPS tests on target dummies for both frost raiding and arcane raiding specs.

I found that arcane would pull off arround 5k DPS over 4 minutes
and frost could pull off 4.5k ish DPS over 8 minutes

now, remember the situation: TARGET DUMMIES
meaning no raid buffs, meaning ttw was not going off (even for frost, I had frostbolt glyphed) and it also meant no focus magic, and no use of deep freeze for frost (since dummies can be stunned...)

I will go back on later tonight and do more thorough tests and postmore details if people are interested.

Question time:
Based on these numbers, is it fair to say that Frost may become a viable (not top, but close) raid spec?

EDIT: read my futur posts starting with "UPDATE TO NUMBERS AND INFORMATION" It has updates to numbers and new info.

Lets not forget that Arcane's strength is it's mobility. Add that factor in and suddenly the comparison isn't so close.

[fabian]

http://code.google.com/p/simulationc...e#MageT9180053

Scroll down to the frost mage stats and you will see brain freeze is NOT a dps loss period. When used correctly BF is actually a 7% increase to a frost mages dps.

That doesn't say its a 7% dps increase, it says it is 7% of a frost mage's dps. You have shown no proof that it is a dps increase either. TO actually know if it is a dps increase now(it was not pre-3.3) is to actually compare the 2 different specs. Until then, I will keep firm that BF is a dps loss(there was no change to BF talent; it was a dps loss before).

It might be beneficial if you include the set bonuses though(which that chart clearly does not use).

[jenocide]

frost is already viable... just doesnt hit as hard now than (i rekon) in 3.3

my mage can pull off close to 5k dps as frost in TotC 25 and Uld 25 (but frost is my off spec... generally raid as arcane)

[fabian]

frost is already viable... just doesnt hit as hard now than (i rekon) in 3.3

my mage can pull off close to 5k dps as frost in TotC 25 and Uld 25 (but frost is my off spec... generally raid as arcane)

Spec Arcane and see your dps, then you'll know that Frost is NOT viable in 3.2

[DirewolfX]

That doesn't say its a 7% dps increase, it says it is 7% of a frost mage's dps. You have shown no proof that it is a dps increase either. TO actually know if it is a dps increase now(it was not pre-3.3) is to actually compare the 2 different specs. Until then, I will keep firm that BF is a dps loss(there was no change to BF talent; it was a dps loss before).

It might be beneficial if you include the set bonuses though(which that chart clearly does not use).

Actually, look at the damage per execute time. Fireball edges out frostbolt, which means it's actually a DPS gain. Of course, SimulationCraft is still an iffy proof, IMO. At least it indicates that popping BF to get the T10 haste buff might turn out not to be a DPS loss.