Frost raiding DPS in 3.3

[Skarrd]

Actually, look at the damage per execute time. Fireball edges out frostbolt, which means it's actually a DPS gain. Of course, SimulationCraft is still an iffy proof, IMO. At least it indicates that popping BF to get the T10 haste buff might turn out not to be a DPS loss.

There's also only 21.4 fireball casts listed. I don't know shit about how simcraft works, so feel free to enlighten me, but that's hardly enough to base a conclusion from.

[Tiga]

The way Simcraft works is that it runs thousands or tens of thousands of iterations of a fight (usually a fixed length encounter) and then averages those. That's why you don't get "21 casts", but something like 21.4 instead. The random variations between several different runs with different parameters are minimal.

For instance the T9 mage sample runs on the Wiki are 300 seconds (5 minutes) with 19992 iterations. That's equivalent to running a boss fight for 69 days non-stop. If you get an average of 21.4 fireballs per 19992 iterations, that's nearly 428000 fireballs cast over the course of the simulation.

SimulationCraft is pretty good. We had a few people go through the mage code a few months ago and report some bugs it had, so I think it's a pretty good representation of mage DPS now. However, last time I checked, the default latency behavior it simulates isn't flattering to brain freeze. If brain freeze is a DPS win with those parameters, it's actually a little bit better if my understanding of instant cast timing is correct.

SC is also usually run on fairly short (5 minutes) fixed length encounters, which can make some cooldown talents look better than others. Back when I was fiddling with it, I frequently ran some longer tests too. Longer fights usually have phase transitions (pauses), which makes it hard to model them exactly. Burst phases play a big part in many TotGC encounters, so it's often important to save some cooldowns and use them wisely at the right time.

[Maniac2]

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?mage...0,QMJ-RO,10894
This is the spec frost mages should be using come 3.3 to raid with.

Somethis should be changed in this tree - using eternal water glyph makes Enduring winter and cold as ice talents almost useless

[Tiga]

Here's another possibility (with one point available for spending pretty much anywhere you like, possibly depending on fight mechanics):

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?mage...h,QMJeRO,10894

Range is an issue in 25 man raiding, so I wouldn't skip artic reach.

If there are a lot of untanked adds and snaring them would be a good thing, I might swap the glyph of frostbolt for glyph of ice lance (assuming the adds are level 81+).

For that remaining one point (all of these are of marginal/situational value):

- If the raid relies on your replenishment, another point in Enduring Winter will help a little.
- If there's a lot of AOE to be done, another point in Improved Blizzard can be nice.
- If there's a lot of fire or frost damage on the raid, frost warding can help.
- If the fight is long enough, cold as ice might allow you to get two cold snaps. If it's really long, you'll get two even without the talent.
- Improved cone of cold (just the first point) might be useful in "cleave" type fights.

[Swizzle]

fabian, i suggest you go and look at the t10 set bonus.

if you raid as frost in 3.3 without brain freeze...you fail, period, end of story.

[KresnikHellfire]

As someone said above me, brain freeze won't be a dps loss once you factor in 2 piece T10. Brain freeze is also one of the few spells a frost mage can use on the move (well, there's icelance of course, but that hits for peanuts without FoF). Also, there aren't really that many other places to spend the points, especially if you'll only be putting 1/3 in enduring winter for the replenishment buff (as I will be on my mage, come 3.3).

I don't like any of the specs linked so far in terms of dps, although a couple of have come close. This is what I'll be using:

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?mage...o,QMJeRO,10894

- As high single-target damage as you can get, as far as I can see.
- Ice Barrier (someone earlier in the thread left it out, wtf =/ It's not a dps increase but it has more uses than just that).
- Cold as ice (not a great talent now that water elemental is permanent, but I don't know how long the fights in Icecrown are gonna be and you never know when the shorter cooldown on Cold Snap will come in handy).

In addition, I was toying with the idea of taking 2 points out of arctic reach and putting them into either student of the mind (very very minor dps increase) or arcane meditiation, just so I would have some in combat regen, but it shouldn't be a problem. We'll see what 3.3 brings

[fabian]

fabian, i suggest you go and look at the t10 set bonus.

if you raid as frost in 3.3 without brain freeze...you fail, period, end of story.

/facepalm

It might be beneficial if you include the set bonuses though(which that chart clearly does not use).

Also, what has affected BR in 3.3 that would cause it to become a dps gain when it was a dps loss before? Although frost wasn't a good dps spec then, but...

[Swizzle]

it grants 12% haste

[Lordender]

Can't believe people are still trying to justify raiding as frost, get with the program, can't believe raid leaders allow shitty mages to show up as frost outsides of maybe very few fights like faction champs.

[Swizzle]

Can't believe people are still trying to justify raiding as frost, get with the program, can't believe raid leaders allow shitty mages to show up as frost outsides of maybe very few fights like faction champs.

it's a 3.3 thread. frost is supposed to become viable next patch. get with the program.

[Milamber]

frost is supposed to become viable next patch

got any 3.3 frost simcrafts?

[nerfproof]

I think what alot of people who troll on these forums dont get is alot of people may enjoy raiding as frost. And believe it or not but there are raid leaders who dont care what spec someone is as long as they can contribute to the raid. My guild for example is fairly new, comprised of mostly friends who have been playig wow now for 3-5 years, and we've just cleared 10-man Ulduar on 2 of our teams and are about to start our 25-man. We have 2 mages, 1 arcane (which comes patch will add the Empowerment Buff) and myself, a frost mage that applies WC and replenishment. During our 10-man uluar runs I was doing about 5.4k dps and the arcane mage was doing about 6k. Which yes is a huge gap, but it's only because pre 3.3 frost rotation is limited to FB spam until FoF, or BF, procs. Comes 3.3 we will have DF in our rotation plus with the T10 set bonus having BF will give us additional haste. And since BF has a substantial uptime thats almost guaranteed 12% haste at all times. Also come 3.3 our WE will become a perma pet with the Endless Winter glyph, which only is going to boost our dps very nicely. Am I saying im going to keep up with equally geared arcane or ttw/fire mages?, nope. All i'm saying is that you CAN raid as frost, bring something to the table, and enjoying playing the class also. The is a game after all and it should be more about having fun with friends or complete strangers then becomeing SO hardcore that you stroke over it.

[Swizzle]

got any 3.3 frost simcrafts?

the current simcaft going around has frost nicely below fire and arcane still, but that's in current gear.
Simcraft

[fabian]

it grants 12% haste

I guess I have to emphasize it once again...

It might be beneficial if you include the set bonuses though(which that chart clearly does not use).

Now, if reading comprehension is hard, I'll just say it.

I am agreeing with you when it comes to the set bonus.

[Milamber]

the current simcaft going around has frost nicely below fire and arcane still, but that's in current gear.
Simcraft

11207 vs. 9236...

you expect frost to catch up 2k dps with new gear?

arcane will profit from the t10 setbonuses also mind you

[Strykzor]

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?mage...0,QMJ-RO,10894
This is the spec frost mages should be using come 3.3 to raid with.

K spastic.
Brain Freeze, Spell Impact, 2pt in enduring winter and Frost channeling are wasted points.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?mage...p,QMJ-RO,10894
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?mage...m,QMJ-RO,10894

Are more accurate specs, I have n idea how good deep freeze is on bosses so they could be fairly even or the deep freeze build would be much better.

[Swizzle]

11207 vs. 9236...

you expect frost to catch up 2k dps with new gear?

arcane will profit from the t10 setbonuses also mind you

no, i don't, but then again without it brain freeze is no bueno, and that mage was using brain freeze. maybe it will be closer on live. who knows, it's all just simcraft for now (might i add that the mage doing the 20/51/0 parse is gemming for crit?).

[Milamber]

no, i don't, but then again without it brain freeze is no bueno, and that mage was using brain freeze. maybe it will be closer on live. who knows, it's all just simcraft for now (might i add that the mage doing the 20/51/0 parse is gemming for crit?).

Yeah we'll see. Would be cool though. 4 "viable" raidspecs OH MA GAWD

[nerfproof]

K spastic.
Brain Freeze, Spell Impact, 2pt in enduring winter and Frost channeling are wasted points.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?mage...p,QMJ-RO,10894
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?mage...m,QMJ-RO,10894

Are more accurate specs, I have n idea how good deep freeze is on bosses so they could be fairly even or the deep freeze build would be much better.

Both of those specs u posted are complete garbage. Those 2 specs complete kill any type of decent dps u may wanna do. Again with T10 gear u MUST have brainfreeze for the 12% haste. And come 3.3 any frost mage that doesnt spec into Deep Frezze needs to play something else...that is ofcourse u like not doing 25-30k crits on raid bosses.

[kinky31]

frost needs more buffs than these,
frostbolt glyph needs a fix, also something with frostbite and bosses in order to proc more fingers,

also deep freeze is nice but it cant be compared with 4AB-stacked arcane missiles which does more dmg anyway and it comes to an average 30k every 7secs VS 30 sec. sad isnt it?
we could use a deep freeze glyph change which is shit atm, like your frostbolts reduce the cd of deepfreeze by 1.5-2sec. or add it at a talent so we get to use molten armor-frostbolt-infinite elemental glyphs
in pvp u r not free to spam frostbolt like crazy so it wont be considered as an OP buff.