so they DID base the SWP change on the inaccurate, impossible-to-repeat sims lol

[greysin]

according to the blue post on mmo front page, spriest dps was higher than they wanted based on sims. it was bugged and locking in all haste from the first application, but that "wasn't the reason they made the change"

that is such bullshit, these fuckers honestly think the playerbase is as dumb as some of the guys on their design team

if they honestly based this change off a sim then they are less intelligent than i thought. not only do sims ALWAYS overestimate the damage of locks and spriests (dot classes) but the one with the high spriest dps was based on EVERY POSSIBLE HASTE BUFF BEING LOCKED INTO THE FIRST SWP, along with a full set of dots being flawlessly maintained on multiple targets (not possible to keep 90% uptime on vt and swp on more than one target without delaying MB which HURTS dps)

they are stumped, can't figure it out so they say spriests were op

meanwhile, in PTR raids, spriest dps was still at the bottom

the damn sims were done in the same gear that is on the ptr and gave them 30% more than what any were putting down.

[G l o w y r m]

Where does it say they based it off of sims? It doesn't.

Besides, all the shadow priests seem to know that some sort of debuff was going to happen before live. 3.3 is still a huge improvement for the spec and addresses key issues.

This comment is really separate but...people who go on about how "stupid" the game developers are honestly have no clue how coding a game of this magnitude works and how difficult it is. So peeved at know it alls. Chances are if YOU thought of it, they already did a long long time ago.

[greysin]

Where does it say they based it off of sims? It doesn't.

Besides, all the shadow priests seem to know that some sort of debuff was going to happen before live. 3.3 is still a huge improvement for the spec and addresses key issues.

3.3 is bringing about a 3-5% dps increase as is

we were looking at maybe a 10% dps increase before

"There is a bug where you can get big SW:P dots and then keep them rolling at that magnitude forever since the spell gets constantly refreshed."

that bug was exploited to the fullest on SIMS that had spriest dps at or near the top (around 10k dps in t9)

but hey, if you're naive enough to believe they DIDN'T base it on this, then there is nothing i can do to change your mind, you'll be in denial no matter what i say

if you take a good look at that sim, you'll see that they were keeping a perfect rotation up on 5 targets, which isn't possible.

[G l o w y r m]

You haven't answered the question. You're assuming since something was happening on a sim that that's why they did it. Almost every huge change to any class is worked out on sims by thousands of min-maxers every single patch. Does that mean every change is based off of them?

That bug is a legit "problem", sim or no sim.

The increase off the bat is kinda small, but scaling is better now so some people are getting 10% (have seen 15) out the gate, and should see closer to 20% (than what they would be at without 3.3) after ICC gear.

You sound like a conspiracy theorist. They have reasons for everything and those reasons are based off of their info, not ours, although they do look at ours when it's presented correctly. They even explain this in the blue post. Their tools are way more sophisticated than anything we have at collecting data, they saw a problem in that data.

There's no way they will make any game changes based off of 3rd party software. That doesn't make sense at all. Which is why the people who actually know what they are doing wouldn't do it, if some joe shmoes like us know not to. You can hate Blizzard, but I really think you give them too little credit, they didn't get to where they are with "stupid" people working for them.

[darkmomo]

it's a little disappointing to hear about them going to fix the problem. Sure its the players choice to play a class that is at the bottom of the Dps charts but still. Blizz should at least buff us some what where we can compete with our classes. Its a shame to see a ret pally pulling double the dps of a spriest. Maybe i'm just QQ but its a fact that spriest are at the bottom of the dps charts most of the time.

[Worshaka]

3.3 is bringing about a 3-5% dps increase as is

we were looking at maybe a 10% dps increase before

Garbage.

SW:P accounted for about 12% of your overall damage, haste scaling has been removed from this spell only. If you had a raid buffed 20% haste rate, the difference in damage is 0.2 * 0.12 = 2.4%

VT & DP on the other hand account for roughly 33% of your combined overall damage, a 20% haste rate will increase your DPS by about 0.33 * 0.2 = 6.6%

These numbers are for current itemisation, keep in mind spriests have attempted to avoid haste so there is signficiant room in itemisation to gain more haste. I also haven't factored in some other changes that are worth 1 or 2% which I won't bother to go into.

With reitemising it won't be unheard of to reach a raid buffed haste rate approaching 30%. Not to mention that spirit becomes far more useful and your gear will be able to provide higher rates of spellpower.

At 30% haste you will see just from haste scaling a 9.9% increase in DPS.

Removing haste scaling from SW:P is largely insignificant. The only time it provides a signficant number is if you wanted to count the abiilty to use a troll racial, speed pots, weapon changing, power infusion... basically stack stupid amounts of haste for your first cast of SW:P. Trying to count this elevated amount of DPS is retarded based on the fact it's a bug and the SW:P refresh mechanic isn't intended to work this way. While GC has stated they didn't remove SW:P haste scaling for this reason the fact is that should have been the reason. It's an exploitable bug that would have had every spriest change their race to troll and basically encourage a type of behaviour they wish to avoid.

I suggest some people just calm down, you can increase your DPS a lot more by actually learning your class properly instead of slamming blizzard all the time. Again the number 1 factor for poor spriest DPS in all the people I've assisted is their poor spell priority rotation. We are a difficult class to play (even if not the most difficult) and your energy is best spent on become better than telling blizzard they don't konw what they're doing.

[Fornaw]

Garbage.

SW:P accounted for about 12% of your overall damage, haste scaling has been removed from this spell only. If you had a raid buffed 20% haste rate, the difference in damage is 0.2 * 0.12 = 2.4%

VT & DP on the other hand account for roughly 33% of your combined overall damage, a 20% haste rate will increase your DPS by about 0.33 * 0.2 = 6.6%

These numbers are for current itemisation, keep in mind spriests have attempted to avoid haste so there is signficiant room in itemisation to gain more haste. I also haven't factored in some other changes that are worth 1 or 2% which I won't bother to go into.

With reitemising it won't be unheard of to reach a raid buffed haste rate approaching 30%. Not to mention that spirit becomes far more useful and your gear will be able to provide higher rates of spellpower.

At 30% haste you will see just from haste scaling a 9.9% increase in DPS.

Removing haste scaling from SW:P is largely insignificant. The only time it provides a signficant number is if you wanted to count the abiilty to use a troll racial, speed pots, weapon changing, power infusion... basically stack stupid amounts of haste for your first cast of SW:P. Trying to count this elevated amount of DPS is retarded based on the fact it's a bug and the SW:P refresh mechanic isn't intended to work this way. While GC has stated they didn't remove SW:P haste scaling for this reason the fact is that should have been the reason. It's an exploitable bug that would have had every spriest change their race to troll and basically encourage a type of behaviour they wish to avoid.

I suggest some people just calm down, you can increase your DPS a lot more by actually learning your class properly instead of slamming blizzard all the time. Again the number 1 factor for poor spriest DPS in all the people I've assisted is their poor spell priority rotation. We are a difficult class to play (even if not the most difficult) and your energy is best spent on become better than telling blizzard they don't konw what they're doing.

Aww you busted his conspiracy theory with a bit of simple research and the level of math taught to middle school children.


I wanted to do that.

[jonish]

They removed it because they could not figure out how to code SWPain so that it did not hold the boosted haste amounts. They used the excuse of "we were doing to much dps" which is a load of bull.

Simcraft is an utter joke of a program which is more useless than logging on the PTR and parsing on a training dummy to get raid numbers.
It gives best case scenario events for everything you do which is complete inaccurate and we more so than other classes are subject to error in our rotations because they are much more complex and have to be very closely managed because of multiple DoT cooldowns.

We will need a change to Mind blast and Mind flay to compensate. Mind blast should be changed to a 3second base cast with a 6 second cooldown and have the talents move it back down to a 1.5 second cast. This would give us a much stronger nuke for adds while not changing our rotation in anyway. This should have been done long ago but blizzard just has some strange desire to keep shadow as a below average spec.

[jonish]

Garbage.

SW:P accounted for about 12% of your overall damage, haste scaling has been removed from this spell only. If you had a raid buffed 20% haste rate, the difference in damage is 0.2 * 0.12 = 2.4%

VT & DP on the other hand account for roughly 33% of your combined overall damage, a 20% haste rate will increase your DPS by about 0.33 * 0.2 = 6.6%

These numbers are for current itemisation, keep in mind spriests have attempted to avoid haste so there is signficiant room in itemisation to gain more haste. I also haven't factored in some other changes that are worth 1 or 2% which I won't bother to go into.

With reitemising it won't be unheard of to reach a raid buffed haste rate approaching 30%. Not to mention that spirit becomes far more useful and your gear will be able to provide higher rates of spellpower.

At 30% haste you will see just from haste scaling a 9.9% increase in DPS.

Removing haste scaling from SW:P is largely insignificant. The only time it provides a signficant number is if you wanted to count the abiilty to use a troll racial, speed pots, weapon changing, power infusion... basically stack stupid amounts of haste for your first cast of SW:P. Trying to count this elevated amount of DPS is retarded based on the fact it's a bug and the SW:P refresh mechanic isn't intended to work this way. While GC has stated they didn't remove SW:P haste scaling for this reason the fact is that should have been the reason. It's an exploitable bug that would have had every spriest change their race to troll and basically encourage a type of behaviour they wish to avoid.

I suggest some people just calm down, you can increase your DPS a lot more by actually learning your class properly instead of slamming blizzard all the time. Again the number 1 factor for poor spriest DPS in all the people I've assisted is their poor spell priority rotation. We are a difficult class to play (even if not the most difficult) and your energy is best spent on become better than telling blizzard they don't konw what they're doing.

your math doesnt include , berzerking , haste pot , PI , trinkets , glove tinker , or any other cooldown that increases haste. This change to a priest whacking a test dummy will seem insignificant, but in a raid environment where you can literally roll a SWPain with 100% or more haste is a giant difference. by your math just pulling the numbers outa my anus you said 20% = 2.4% increased damage well with 100% to swpain which could be maintained during encounters what does the math show then because that is the real number that needs to be looked and , and blizzard not being able to code SWPain to not maintain the increased haste value was the issue. It was not that we do too much damage it is that we found a way to make there coding work for us is a significant way, and they didnt know how to fix it so they just removed it.

There should be some kind of change done to give us back the increase they wanted us to have via the original idea of the SWPain change. Not the drastic increase we would have gotten.

[blaqkmagick]

I don't really understand all the fancy math going on here, but I was wondering...
Why would they remove 1 dot from haste scaling from a spriest? Locks have more dots and generally higher DPS, yet all their dots scale with haste?
I know I'm probably missing out on some key info, so I would appreciate it if someone could shed some light on the subject.
Thanks.

[Pentarch]

From my understanding, a Shadow Priest could blow a bunch of +haste cooldowns, and then cast SW:P. Ticks from Mindflay through talents refresh the duration of SW:P and the developers were having issues on coding the spell to no longer keep the +haste bonus once the original cast's duration was over.

[blaqkmagick]

From my understanding, a Shadow Priest could blow a bunch of +haste cooldowns, and then cast SW:P. Ticks from Mindflay through talents refresh the duration of SW:P and the developers were having issues on coding the spell to no longer keep the +haste bonus once the original cast's duration was over.

OHHHkay.
That does sound quite good...

[Xploit]

The OP clearly can't read. The blue post clearly states that players shouldn't base their DPS around simulations (sims).

[Kvn]

I don't really understand all the fancy math going on here, but I was wondering...
Why would they remove 1 dot from haste scaling from a spriest? Locks have more dots and generally higher DPS, yet all their dots scale with haste?
I know I'm probably missing out on some key info, so I would appreciate it if someone could shed some light on the subject.
Thanks.

Locks don't have all their dots affected, only ONE dot is, forgot which. And it's a glyph.

edit: Glyph of Quick Decay: This glyph allows for the warlock's haste to reduce the time between periodic damage effects of Corruption.

[rabbimojo]

*scribbles in notebook* grey..sin.. and.. Jo.. nish.. are.. illit.. erate..

Jonish, did you completely miss this:

...
The only time it provides a signficant number is if you wanted to count the abiilty to use a troll racial, speed pots, weapon changing, power infusion... basically stack stupid amounts of haste for your first cast of SW:P. Trying to count this elevated amount of DPS is retarded based on the fact it's a bug and the SW:P refresh mechanic isn't intended to work this way.
...

?
Your post is basically "Your math doesn't include the things you said it doesn't include!"

...
Simcraft is an utter joke of a program which is more useless than logging on the PTR and parsing on a training dummy to get raid numbers.
It gives best case scenario events for everything you do which is complete inaccurate and we more so than other classes are subject to error in our rotations because they are much more complex and have to be very closely managed because of multiple DoT cooldowns.
...

Hint: Pretty much any time you say "we, more than any other class", you're wrong.
SP isn't faceroll, no. It also isn't the hardest rotation, or more punishing than other classes'. I'm not going to bother to list them - if you don't know, you won't listen.

Simcraft is a program that simulates a player who knows their class, given a certain set of gear and raid conditions. It does that pretty damned well, frankly, so calling it an "utter joke of a program" because it doesn't tell you what -your- performance during tonight's raid will be is just ridiculous.

You and OP are starting to sound like shaman. When your arguments boil down to "Blizz is lying and they hate us", it's time to log off and get some fresh air. You've lost perspective, and you're just ranting mindlessly.

Fact is, with the changes as they stand, your dps will be roughly on-par with shaman and boomkin. It isn't the highest, but it's fine.

[Deyus]

that bug was exploited to the fullest on SIMS that had spriest dps at or near the top (around 10k dps in t9)

As per normal Greysin is uninformed.

Delmortis (also known as Althor - the guy who produced the much talked about simcraft run) posted about it today on the damage dealers forums. Here is what he had to say:

Actually the Priests in SampleOutputPTR weren't doing anything particularly special.

Bloodlust/Heroism was used late in the fight.
The default Priest race in SimulationCraft is Night-Elf, not Troll (it supports all Priest races however) and so there was no berserking.
The default Priest profile is an enchanter/tailor, not an Engineer.

It did however pop a Potion of Speed right near the start of the fight and so it had an extra 500 Haste Rating for most of the fight, however when Bloodlust/Heroism was popped around 25% boss health left, it recast SW: Pain and so instead of rolling 500 Haste Rating it was instead rolling the 30% speed buff from that.

So basically, apart from popping a potion, and recasting SW:P during Heroism, it wasn't going out of its way to exploit anything. When I did experiment with early bloodlusts, and Trolls etc. I saw even higher numbers.

[Worshaka]

your math doesnt include , berzerking , haste pot , PI , trinkets , glove tinker , or any other cooldown that increases haste. This change to a priest whacking a test dummy will seem insignificant, but in a raid environment where you can literally roll a SWPain with 100% or more haste is a giant difference. by your math just pulling the numbers outa my anus you said 20% = 2.4% increased damage well with 100% to swpain which could be maintained during encounters what does the math show then because that is the real number that needs to be looked and , and blizzard not being able to code SWPain to not maintain the increased haste value was the issue. It was not that we do too much damage it is that we found a way to make there coding work for us is a significant way, and they didnt know how to fix it so they just removed it.

There should be some kind of change done to give us back the increase they wanted us to have via the original idea of the SWPain change. Not the drastic increase we would have gotten.

I suggest you read my post in full... I specifically state that if you take into account abusing the rolling SW:P mechanic you are effectively retarded. Rolling stupid amounts of temp haste to the spell full time is well outside the intentions of both the refresh & dot haste scaling mechanic.

[Shad47]

It's important for classes to want the stats that appear on their gear, but it's not a goal that everyone requires all stats in the same.

So why did we have haste from 2.9 to 3.2.2 on our gear until now ? It was useless until they got the idea to scale it with dots....

[Deyus]

Haste has never been useless. It has been slightly behind crit in terms of it's worth for us. SLIGHTLY. The scaling numbers that the community accept as gospel have held it's value at about 90% of crit over the time period you mentioned.

[Worshaka]

So why did we have haste from 2.9 to 3.2.2 on our gear until now ? It was useless until they got the idea to scale it with dots....

Not exactly true, without 11.1% haste you delay your MB casts or lose out on MF ticks. MF contributes around 40% of your total damage and haste benefits this spell just like any caster nuke, the only difference is that you need to interweave MF inbetween your other spells.

You still got benefit above 11.1% haste (despite what others say) it's just that the value of haste changes dramatically depending on the sweet spots. The idea that haste is useless was one of the major misconceptions the spriest community held for a very long time.