Warlocks, Scaling, and 3.3 - We won't suck so much

[gherkin]

History:
You might have seen a few posts here and there from disgruntled people about how warlock dps is low. You also may have seen people immediately counter with "well I'm #1 in my raid..." or "I'm still top 5.". Allow me to explain:

All warlocks who compete for dps are basically destro right now. If you have any raiding experience from Burning Crusade, you really can't fuck this up. Immolate then faceroll the rest of your keys. There's more to it than this, but its ~very~ straightforward. This is why most people claim to be top dps.

Mages, our primary competition historically, has arcane as its top dps spec. This requires a bit of finesse on the part of the mage, because it relies on gear (more crits), RNG (Missile Barrage procs), and mana management. Bad mages will intentionally lower their dps so that they don't have to deal with the mana issue.

Rogues require a bit of finesse in order to maintain Slice and Dice while managing combo points for Eviscerate. Alternatively, a mutilate spec requires a lot more finesse in how you work your Deadly Poison stacks with Envenom and Mutilate. Bad rogues will lower their dps through bad combo point management or poor use of poison stacks.

Hunters are equally easy to play as warlocks. Low dps tends to mean poor choice of arrows, spec, or less gear than you have.


So basically, the warlocks who are in a raid that are not being out-damaged by the above 3 classes are playing with people who need to try harder. They should be outdamaged. Hybrids are another story altogether. Druids are allowed high dps because of how complex their rotation is (as hard as Affliction in 3.0.2). Unholy DK's and Warriors require more than one target to outdamage pures.


Current (3.2) and why this is:
Scaling. Think about it - in lesser gear, Warlocks win. But in Ulduar, Mages could compete again. In TOC on non-gimmick fights, Mages are ahead. Warlocks and Mages use the exact same gear (basically) and gem similarly. Thus the main difference between the two classes is how they perform as their gear improves. An Arcane Mage has a net Scaling Factor of 6.8592, ignoring hit rating. An Affliction Warlock has a net Scaling Factor of 5.2096. A Destro Warlock has 5.5300.

This means that despite having a higher base damage component from talents, spell coefficients, and base spell damage, Mages eventually will out perform a Warlock because they get more damage from their gear. This is also how two specs interrelate - Destro is better than Affliction, but not by much other than the mechanics of the fights.

I want to point out something - this does not mean a damn thing to blizzard and it shouldn't. There has to be a difference in stat values otherwise whats the point? That's the beauty of design - you get to make two different things with very different numbers and have them fight each other. However, the problem then remains that the mechanics of "Top DPS" specs for all the classes beating Warlocks all favor the kind of fights they have been designing. TOC heavily favors any class with passive aoe (non-channelled) and minimal ramp-up time. Warlocks have both and thus the fights begin in favor of someone else.

This gap with the fight types is now too wide to let go. Blizzard steps in.

3.3 Scaling - Why we no longer need a hug:
There are enough changes, specifically via Glyph of Quick Decay, to warrant a change.
Arcane Mage has changed to 6.7848. -.0744
Affliction has changed to 6.1297. +.9201
Destro has changed to 5.3081. -.2219 (note we gained in Imp crits via Ruin, which do not show up here)

You may note that we did not catch up to Arcane. This is intentional - we gained more dps via pet changes, which are for the most part unaffected by our personal scales as these conversion numbers were not changed in the patch. Also, Arcane does require a bit more thought and skill to play, thus warranting higher dps.

TLDR/Summary: We'll catch up. We won't be #1 in BIS gear, but we've gained enough of an advantage to no longer warrant generic complaints and "mah dps is 2 low" troll posts.



And I'll probably get slammed because you really can't compare scale factors like this, and it's true and extremely inaccurate. However, it's close enough to make a point, and that's where we're coming from and where we're going.

[sugarfree]

They need to have fights that favor Affliction for once.

And I've lost hope with the pet scaling in 3.3. It's stupid, the ghouls already scale with haste, why cant they do the same for locks and hunters who are basically hoping for this change because it will help us? They have to tweak numbers in order to adjust, but still, this is just stupid that a new non pet class is getting everything before the true pet classes. They have such a hard on with DKs ever since their dots started to crit before us.

[gherkin]

Agreed on the fight mechanics. Some of them are looking very promising.

And I believe that Unholy DK's were the test bed for dot crits, because they couldn't make the dots too powerful and without it they weren't powerful enough. It worked, they passed it on.

Pet scaling has been said already - they don't want to drastically alter Warlocks (pets account for at least 600 dps on the least pet-intensive spec) and Hunters (BM/PVP) so late in the expansion such that they require so much tweaking to get right that they have to release patch after patch to get it right. Let them worry about it in cataclysm. It's for the better.

[nighttime]

I don't know where you get the idea that Arcane Mages require more finese than Warlocks, I have both and wouldnt say Arcane requires any more, and quite possibly less care than locks. 95% of the time you press two buttons (and even then one button four times and then one other). I play both classes and mana management and conservation is hardly an issue anymore due to the masses of spirit on all gear, plus even the thickest skull can use a mana gem when mana gets to a certain level. Surely you dont mean it's finese to have some burst options like Arc Power / Icy veins? What a nice problem to have......

[BartolGdH]

Still, you'd have to use these cooldowns, and if you don't use them effectively, you will suck in certain fights as arcane.
As for mana management: I don't know if arcane mages have these big mana problems, but in a longer fight they are more likely to have to use evocation at least once, don't they (I really don't know for sure)?

I think that what gherkin means by "more finesse" is that destro always does the same things in every fight (no CDs to blow, no altering mechanics etc), whereas (arcane) mages have to adjust to certain situations and use their CDs "wisely" there, if they want to be at their best dps.

As always: correct me if I'm wrong, please!

[gherkin]

Mages press two buttons, its true, but the mana management portion of it is pretty huge. The basic rotation is:

1) Spam Arcane Blast until you get a proc
2) Arcane Missiles

That's it. However Arcane Blast increases in mana cost per application. If you cast an extra one when you didn't need to (due to bad proc watching), its a large mana loss. If you don't get a proc when you need one, it starts to be a large mana loss. Thus bad mages, as I said, will simplify the rotation to ABlast 3x, Missiles. This means that sometimes they don't get the proc. Some of them use Barrage in there instead. Then there's the cooldowns (Evocate included), as well as mana gems, and coordinating all of this with Heroism/Bloodlust.

I'm not saying Arcane is hard to play, but in order to be consistently high dps you have to understand the spec. Destro Warlocks have nothing extra in their spec - don't clip immolate, keep it up as best you can, don't let your pet die, Life Tap every 40 seconds. That's it. There's no execute button. There's no cooldowns. There's no synergy between spells. You pray for Pyroclasm, thats about it.

The only "finesse" to the spec applies to any caster - know how and when to move based on the mechanics of the fight to maximize your dps. Thus my original point stands true - any warlock with a basic understanding of how to play as a dps caster will outperform the same mage, assuming average skill. If you crank this up to "Best of the best", the warlock doesn't have a chance.

[scandore8472]

I don't know where you get the idea that Arcane Mages require more finese than Warlocks, I have both and wouldnt say Arcane requires any more, and quite possibly less care than locks. 95% of the time you press two buttons (and even then one button four times and then one other). I play both classes and mana management and conservation is hardly an issue anymore due to the masses of spirit on all gear, plus even the thickest skull can use a mana gem when mana gets to a certain level. Surely you dont mean it's finese to have some burst options like Arc Power / Icy veins? What a nice problem to have......

I have to agree, I don't have much raiding experience on my mage, she just hit 80 two weeks ago, but so far, she's easier to play then my lock. Arc mages still use a rotation, while destro uses priorities. Arc blast x3, if Mbarr is up, AM, if not, AB then rinse and repeat.

[bigjenk]

There are also other things that you are failing to add that increase lock dps. Mainly anytime you have to move or will have to move and conflag is on cd you should either be adding curruption or shadowfury in as it is a dps increase but it is not like either class is hard to play.

As the change to afffliction happens haste will become even better since even past gcd hardcap shadowbolt and drain soul will continue to benefit and with haste pot+bloodlust+eradication you should be able to nail 1.5 sec ticks of drain soul which now avg 20k in bis gear as well as curruption ticking every 1.5 secs for an average of 8k this will once again be warlocks being competitive in the first 75 percent of the fight and overtaking everything with a clean 25-0 phase.

Oh and for you questioning the afflic nerf in 3.1 if they didnt afflic would hit over 15k single target right now on a non gimmick.

[gherkin]

I have to agree, I don't have much raiding experience on my mage, she just hit 80 two weeks ago, but so far, she's easier to play then my lock. Arc mages still use a rotation, while destro uses priorities. Arc blast x3, if Mbarr is up, AM, if not, AB then rinse and repeat.

And this is a dps loss compared to someone who removes AB from their rotation entirely. The downside is that it's mana intensive, and thus the finesse I keep mentioning pops up. If you want proof, check the "top dps" logs on wowmeteronline.com for mages.

There are also other things that you are failing to add that increase lock dps. Mainly anytime you have to move or will have to move and conflag is on cd you should either be adding curruption or shadowfury in as it is a dps increase but it is not like either class is hard to play.

As the change to afffliction happens haste will become even better since even past gcd hardcap shadowbolt and drain soul will continue to benefit and with haste pot+bloodlust+eradication you should be able to nail 1.5 sec ticks of drain soul which now avg 20k in bis gear as well as curruption ticking every 1.5 secs for an average of 8k this will once again be warlocks being competitive in the first 75 percent of the fight and overtaking everything with a clean 25-0 phase.

Oh and for you questioning the afflic nerf in 3.1 if they didnt afflic would hit over 15k single target right now on a non gimmick.

Casting Corruption while moving just negates the fact that you moved. It does not increase our dps, but rather prevents it from going lower.

And I didn't question the affliction nerf. It was justified, although your 15k is a bit excessive. Top of the meters for sure, and king of pvp definately. But 15k is a bit of a stretch.

[Hhavok]

History:
Rogues require a bit of finesse in order to maintain Slice and Dice while managing combo points for Eviscerate. Alternatively, a mutilate spec requires a lot more finesse in how you work your Deadly Poison stacks with Envenom and Mutilate. Bad rogues will lower their dps through bad combo point management or poor use of poison stacks.

Maybe it's just a difference in what we find challenging, but I consider rogues to be simpler than a destro lock. I play both, and my rogue was very simple as mutilate. Now that he's combat, it seems even simpler. I just spam sinister strike, slice and dice once, spam sinister strike a while longer, then rupture once, rinse and repeat, and eviscerate when you have some spare time on your rupture and slice and dice to do so. So you're only focus is make sure rupture and slice and dice are up while spamming a single attack for combo points.

With my destro lock, I need to make sure my life tap buff is up first off, then I need to keep immolate up, and also keep a curse up. On top of keeping those three things up at all times, I have three main damaging nukes, conflag, incinerate, and chaos bolt. My dots can not be clipped, but need to stay up always, and I sometimes need to heal my pet on the side.

I'm not saying destro locks are complicated. I just think that rogues are generally a very simple class as far as maximizing their dps...

So what does this mean for destro locks most likely, with the decreased gear-scaling and the improved crit? Is this looking like an overall improvement?

[gherkin]

Maybe it's just a difference in what we find challenging, but I consider rogues to be simpler than a destro lock. I play both, and my rogue was very simple as mutilate. Now that he's combat, it seems even simpler. I just spam sinister strike, slice and dice once, spam sinister strike a while longer, then rupture once, rinse and repeat, and eviscerate when you have some spare time on your rupture and slice and dice to do so. So you're only focus is make sure rupture and slice and dice are up while spamming a single attack for combo points.

With my destro lock, I need to make sure my life tap buff is up first off, then I need to keep immolate up, and also keep a curse up. On top of keeping those three things up at all times, I have three main damaging nukes, conflag, incinerate, and chaos bolt. My dots can not be clipped, but need to stay up always, and I sometimes need to heal my pet on the side.

I'm not saying destro locks are complicated. I just think that rogues are generally a very simple class as far as maximizing their dps...

It's probably just a different way of thinking about it. I have a harder time on my rogue than my warlock, not by much but enough.

So what does this mean for destro locks most likely, with the decreased gear-scaling and the improved crit? Is this looking like an overall improvement?

With the imp/ruin change and the conflag change, there's a net increase. Not a lot, but its a bit. However, since Destruction is so high in PVP they can't buff it further. I think Destruction will have it's place in some fights, but Affliction or Demo will be the main one for the next patch.

[scandore8472]

And this is a dps loss compared to someone who removes AB from their rotation entirely. The downside is that it's mana intensive

I still don't buy it. Arc mages require as much finesse as BC destro locks.

Step 1, place your face on your keyboard.
Step 2, roll.
Step 3, win epic lewt.

[gherkin]

This is devolving into a discussion on my personal opinion of warlock vs mage dps difficulty. That's not the point. The point is that we are low, we are getting an increase, and it won't be enough to put us on top but it is enough to make the gap tolerable.

[Marithas]

what i really hate most about my current lock dps is the rng:

WILL MY PET CRIT?
WILL I CRIT?


and missing first spell on pull because shadowpriest/owl is handicap slow

[Figoment]

3.3 Scaling - Why we no longer need a hug:
There are enough changes, specifically via Glyph of Quick Decay, to warrant a change.
Arcane Mage has changed to 6.7848. -.0744
Affliction has changed to 6.1297. +.9201
Destro has changed to 5.3081. -.2219 (note we gained in Imp crits via Ruin, which do not show up here)

So affliction will be top dps for locks again come 3.3. I'm now happy

[gherkin]

So affliction will be top dps for locks again come 3.3. I'm now happy

Depending on the fight, but we're looking good so far. Lots of target swapping makes affliction suffer.

[Figoment]

Depending on the fight, but we're looking good so far. Lots of target swapping makes affliction suffer.

Well yea but for the most part on a patchwerk like fight afflic will be above destro so I'm happy

[KhameleonN]

what i really hate most about my current lock dps is the rng:

WILL MY PET CRIT?
WILL I CRIT?


and missing first spell on pull because shadowpriest/owl is handicap slow

It's the same with mages.

[Drearcerberus]

However, since Destruction is so high in PVP they can't buff it further. I think Destruction will have it's place in some fights, but Affliction or Demo will be the main one for the next patch.

While destruction is currently our best PvP spec due to it's high burst potential, it doesn't mean the spec shouldn't be buffed if it's dps in PvE just doesn't scale well. It just means that it shouldn't be done directly through CB and conflag, which was where our PvP burst problem was. Making SL and ISL a bit less talent point wise and adding a talent that increases our dps by a small margin not involving those spells should work (such as CB increasing incinerates damage, etc.)

[Halal]

I'll admit I didn't read all the responses but there is something I'd like to address and that is our buffs via our pets. The problem is (looking at destro here more tbh) is that buffing us with our pets doesn't scale; they are 'bandaid' fixes. Just like the nerf to Fire and Brimstone previously then a buff to empowered imp people said "don't complain it's a net buff", however it nerfed our scaling. It meant that a lower gear levels we gained virtual crit rating which means that crit is worth even less than it already was at higher gear levels. Removing 5% from fire and brimstone is possibly one of the biggest nerfs to scaling they could have hit us with, it'd be nice if they perhaps buffed us via pyroclasm or something (awaits incoming pvp flame), this would improve destro's scaling with all stats.