Hard Mode Fallacy

[Snowhammer]

Another Hard Mode Thread (AHMT) woot new acronym



Blizzard has stated before that the reason they created hard modes is to allow all players to expirience the content, they point to Naxx 40 and Sunwell as prime examples.

Quote from Bornakk 12/2/09

"And then we go back to the issue of limiting the number of players who see the content which we don't want to do. Examples: Kil'jaeden and the original Kel'thuzad"

What do these two instances have in common? They were both the Last instance / encounter of the expansion. Kil'jaeden TBC, Kel'thuzad Vanilla. They TWO big examples of not enough players seeing content was because they didn't have time, and didnt get a chance to get better gear to go back and kill them.

Players are ALWAYS able to expirience content once the new has come out, because blizzard either nerfs it, players have gotten more gear, or they have more time to learn the fights.

The Fallacy is that they have given us hard modes for EACH instance when they really should only do so for the Final instance of the expansion. By giving us hardmodes for every instance, it SHORTENS the life span of the instancces considerably. Because.. after all.. why do Ulduar 25 when ToC 25 is pugable and drops gear that is Better than the hard modes in Ulduar?

[Azyoulike]

[quote=Snowhammer ]

Well they could easily have fixed that by making ToC-normal drop the same iLvl as Uld-hard and with slightly worse itemization.

ToC as a facerollingly easy gear-reset was a conscious decision.

[Eats Compost]

The Fallacy is that they have given us hard modes for EACH instance when they really should only do so for the Final instance of the expansion. By giving us hardmodes for every instance, it SHORTENS the life span of the instancces considerably. Because.. after all.. why do Ulduar 25 when ToC 25 is pugable and drops gear that is Better than the hard modes in Ulduar?

I'd say you've identified the wrong thing as the problem. Hardmodes aren't the reason Naxxramas-tier and Ulduar-tier content are skipped, it's the way they're changing the progression ladder - welfare gear, as people call it. People don't go to Ulduar unless they want proto-drakes/algalon/yogg 0 because there's simply little reason to go there. This problem is amplified by the fact that ToC (normal-mode) is EASIER than Ulduar, the previous tier of content, which is quite frankly, messed up. It hasn't got anything to do with hardmodes.

[Snowhammer]

You telling a company with 15 years of game experience how to make games because..um..you have more detailed information how the subscribers and possible future subscribers would like to experience a game or what?

And no...players have NOT always been able to experience old contenet once new content was released.

Vanilla build new content on old gear..basically unless you were decked out in BWL and AQ gear, there was no chance in hell in Naxx.

I've played for 5 years.. no im not telling a company how to make their games.. im simply pointing out the irony that both of their PRIME examples are the END bosses of the previous expansions.

AND YES.. to correct your obvisouly miss informed statement.. Instances were EASIER once new content was out. Molten Core became puggable once there were more people who knew the fights, more gear from the first few bosses of the new instances.

The longer the instance was out, the more dooable it was. If you are saying differently, than you didnt play in vanilla. (or played on a server with really bad players)

Again.. if THE reason they put hard modes in was to let more people see the content.. "to avoid another Naxx40 and Sunwell" then they did it wrong. Or to put it more correctly.. they aren't saying exactly what the reason is.. it isnt to let people see all of the content.. its to let people see it much faster.

[Grimmer]

The Fallacy is that they have given us hard modes for EACH instance when they really should only do so for the Final instance of the expansion. By giving us hardmodes for every instance, it SHORTENS the life span of the instancces considerably. Because.. after all.. why do Ulduar 25 when ToC 25 is pugable and drops gear that is Better than the hard modes in Ulduar?

It doesn't shorten them. At all.

I see what you're saying - adding hard modes is pointless because the easy mode stuff of the next tier is better.

That's not the point of hard modes. The point of hard modes is to have better gear going into the next tier of progression whether it's going to drop better or not. You're not upgrading all your slots, so you're still going to have leftover Ulduar/ToC hard mode pieces. Some even remain BiS for a very long time. Hi Comet's Trail, hi 258 Death's Verdict for some.

If the next, normal tier didn't drop better, there would be no reason to run the next tier of content besides hard modes, regardless of the fact that Blizzard WANTS you to run normal modes to learn the damn fight.

Also, "lifespan" is not the same as "replayability." Yes, the replayability drops considerably for those that aren't going to keep running for their titles/achievement drakes that haven't finished already. But the lifespan is pretty much dead on arrival if there's no hard modes, because we've already seen how quickly guilds blow through easy mode.

Also, there is zero irony whatsoever that they said KT and KJ as examples. That's the whole fucking point: very few got to finish the game. They don't want that.

Their options are to make it easier and add a hard mode that will be obsolete a tier later, only have easy modes and piss off the hardcore crowd, or only have the difficult mode like in Classic/TBC and to piss off the large casual base.

I'd say the first one is the best decision. It's not perfect, but it's the best option at the moment.

You say that the longer an instance is out, the more doable it's going to be. NO SHIT. The difference is, most people don't want to ram their heads into a wall for over a year.

[Snowhammer]

It doesn't shorten them. At all.

Let me make somthing clear real fast.. I am NOT a wow hater.. complainer. I love the game.. I'll play it no matter what.

Now thats out of the way..

How can you say its not shortening them? People dont have to play Naxx at all any more.. People dont have to play Ulduar at all any more. You used to have to at least be workong on the old instance (to gear your self up for the new instance) if you wanted to get into the new one very far.

The hardest of Hard Core guilds would be deep into the new raids, killing Rag, Killing Nef, Killing Cthun, Killing 4 Horseman and beyond..

While the rest of the players we're able to work on the older instances at a slower pace. And medium guilds could start killing 2 or 3 bosses of Naxx 40 while still working to finish off Twins and Cthun.

I guess.. the need to allow players to see content faster comes compeletly from adding an expansion.. other wise every one who wanted to would see sutff eventually.

Aaaaannd. having a hard / easy mode of the last isntance of the expansion would fix that.

[Grimmer]

How can you say its not shortening them? People dont have to play Naxx at all any more.. People dont have to play Ulduar at all any more. You used to have to at least be workong on the old instance (to gear your self up for the new instance) if you wanted to get into the new one very far.

And to new players or alts, that's not doable and very boring.

No one wants to go to Naxx. The badge and gear reset makes it so people can jump into the thick of ICC from day one, because that's what is fun and relevant. Anything else is irrelevant.

The hardest of Hard Core guilds would be deep into the new raids, killing Rag, Killing Nef, Killing Cthun, Killing 4 Horseman and beyond..

Which were all horribly tuned and designed for their first version (and Four Horsemen was permanently...lol 8 warriors), but moving along...

While the rest of the players we're able to work on the older instances at a slower pace. And medium guilds could start killing 2 or 3 bosses of Naxx 40 while still working to finish off Twins and Cthun.

And how is that different from easy and hard mode? The hardcore guilds farm Tribute to Insanity and do Yogg+0 (ok, no one cares about the mount enough to repeat kill) while the more casual guilds wipe continuously to heroic Beasts.

Nothing changed. The only difference is people aren't running boring, shitty, irrelevant content anymore.

Ulduar was out for like, over half a year. The lifespan of the instance was fine. Everyone who wanted to run Ulduar got to, and any casual guild that wants to tackle the hard modes in ToC gear has the option. No one wants to run that place for over five months, ditto for Naxx.

The difference between now and TBC/Classic is that most people didn't like not being able to move on to the next tier. So to allow them to move onto the next tier in a more "Lite" format that drops inferior loot isn't that big of a deal.

I only focus on my main, but I'm pretty sure if I enjoyed playing on multiple alts, I'd completely stop playing them cold turkey if I ever had to go back to fucking Naxx. Sometimes a lack of replayability is a good thing. Naxx, Ulduar, and soon ToC will outstay their welcome. Hell, ToC already has.

I guess.. the need to allow players to see content faster comes compeletly from adding an expansion.. other wise every one who wanted to would see sutff eventually.

Aaaaannd. having a hard / easy mode of the last isntance of the expansion would fix that.

Yes, but having a hard/easy mode of every instance already fixes it for the reasons I've already given. You miss the point of why it exists.

No one wants to go back to Naxx or Ulduar. No one. Nor does anyone want to be in there when there's a fresh new patch out.

Your point is a thinly disguised "I WANT CLASSIC AGAIN!" whine. You are fooling no one.

[Mixon]

the OP has a very good point and i agree with most of his post.

Plain and simple if you haven't seen KJ or AQ40 and the Old Naxx its simply because you didn't want to. Once the next expansion was released when you were 7 lvls higher than the boss and way out geared it you should have easily been able see any content you wanted to even with out having a full raid.

but wait....thats not exactly what ppl are butt hurt over. They like to pretend it is but its simply not possible. No one is truly upset because they didn't get to see content unless you just started playing after the release of naxx(80) or Ony(80), because that is the only content that is not there for you go see to your heart content.

What ppl were really angry over was other ppl with more time or skill being so far ahead of them that it made them feel bad. And im not saying that to be mean, i wishd that Bill Gates was not so far ahead of me $, I wish that pro football QB's were not getting chicks so much finer than me (or at least that i was getting them too, lol).

The point is be honest about it, when ppl are not able to keep up with or at least close to other it makes them feel bad, regardless of weather you will eventually get to that point or not.

[Grimmer]

Plain and simple if you haven't seen KJ or AQ40 and the Old Naxx its simply because you didn't want to. Once the next expansion was released when you were 7 lvls higher than the boss and way out geared it you should have easily been able see any content you wanted to even with out having a full raid.

but wait....thats not exactly what ppl are butt hurt over. They like to pretend it is but its simply not possible. No one is truly upset because they didn't get to see content unless you just started playing after the release of naxx(80) or Ony(80), because that is the only content that is not there for you go see to your heart content.

What ppl were really angry over was other ppl with more time or skill being so far ahead of them that it made them feel bad. And im not saying that to be mean, i wishd that Bill Gates was not so far ahead of me $, I wish that pro football QB's were not getting chicks so much finer than me (or at least that i was getting them too, lol).

The point is be honest about it, when ppl are not able to keep up with or at least close to other it makes them feel bad, regardless of weather you will eventually get to that point or not.

No, people are angry because they want to see content while it's still relevant.

You will never comprehend this, and I do not know why. It's so basic. Hardcore players are still getting rewards that casual players are not, regardless of whether the boss and instance looks the same. Nothing in value has diminished, the only difference is that previous tiers of raiding are removed so everyone can see the latest part of the story progression.

No one wants to do Naxx again. The End.

[Mixon]

No, people are angry because they want to see content while it's still relevant.

You will never comprehend this, and I do not know why. It's so basic. Hardcore players are still getting rewards that casual players are not, regardless of whether the boss and instance looks the same. Nothing in value has diminished, the only difference is that previous tiers of raiding are removed so everyone can see the latest part of the story progression.

No one wants to do Naxx again. The End.

if the latest part is all that is relevant...can we get rid of all the other raids/dungeons....and while were at it lvling all together

[Grimmer]

if the latest part is all that is relevant...can we get rid of all the other raids/dungeons....and while were at it lvling all together

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope_fallacy

Nice job. :

Leveling and dungeons are not as unwieldy and time consuming as previous raid tiers. Namely, they're not on week long lockouts.

[Mixon]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope_fallacy

Nice job. :

Leveling and dungeons are not as unwieldy and time consuming as previous raid tiers. Namely, they're not on week long lockouts.

HEY!.... read the title. Thats what this thread is about. =P

[Grimmer]

HEY!.... read the title. Thats what this thread is about. =P

That doesn't entitle you to continue making terrible arguments.

[Mixon]

That doesn't entitle you to continue making terrible arguments.

wow dude stop being a pu$$y cause you were butt hurt. i tried to be polite in response to your flame and then even make a little joke when you made it clear you have no respect for the opinions of other if they don't coincide with your own. Lighten up smile its just a forum and were changing nothing.

[Noomz]

This thread needs me.

Doing good with that trolling there son.

[Grimmer]

This thread needs me.

Doing good with that trolling there son.

Who's trolling?

[Lavex]

The game was really good during TBC, I liked how it all worked.
Sorry I have not played Vanilla, however, even if SWP was hard and most
people did not get to see it, we had about a week or two (can't exactly remember
how much time) where all content was nerfed to a point where it was all a cakewalk
which IMO was and would of been a great idea to allow players to experience a lot of
the content that was too hard assuming LK was challenging but, as we know it it was
a cakewalk of an expansion.

[Grimmer]

The game was really good during TBC, I liked how it all worked.
Sorry I have not played Vanilla, however, even if SWP was hard and most
people did not get to see it, we had about a week or two (can't exactly remember
how much time) where all content was nerfed to a point where it was all a cakewalk
which IMO was and would of been a great idea to allow players to experience a lot of
the content that was too hard assuming LK was challenging but, as we know it it was
a cakewalk of an expansion.

That's silly and backwards, though.

Instead of having old instances lasting 5 months and never being run again like now, people were stuck on crap for way longer than they wanted to and only ran the new content for a couple of weeks.

Why is the latter so much better than the former? The system right now is fine.

[sd78]

"And then we go back to the issue of limiting the number of players who see the content which we don't want to do. Examples: Kil'jaeden and the original Kel'thuzad"

This sums up the totally wrong-headed approach by Blizzard in WotLK and why the current raid model is a farce.

Naxx and Sunwell were THE FINAL TIER OF RAIDS in Classic and BC respectively and were only released after the original content had been live for over a year. No, you shouldn't be able to faceroll the penultimate raid content in a random PUG stacked with bads. Yes, it is good to have final hardcore raid to aspire to after you've had a year and a half to work through the existing content, even if you are a 'casual player'.

I've personally never set foot in Sunwell.

-Did I deserve to clear it as an unguilded 'casual player' (in this case, a genuine casual player, not a bad)? No.

-Did I feel like I was 'missing out'? No.

[Grimmer]

"And then we go back to the issue of limiting the number of players who see the content which we don't want to do. Examples: Kil'jaeden and the original Kel'thuzad"

This sums up the totally wrong-headed approach by Blizzard in WotLK and why the current raid model is a farce.

Naxx and Sunwell were THE FINAL TIER OF RAIDS in Classic and BC respectively and were only released after the original content had been live for over a year. No, you shouldn't be able to faceroll the penultimate raid content in a random PUG stacked with bads. Yes, it is good to have final hardcore raid to aspire to after you've had a year and a half to work through the existing content, even if you are a 'casual player'.

I've personally never set foot in Sunwell.

-Did I deserve to clear it as an unguilded 'casual player' (in this case, a genuine casual player, not a bad)? No.

-Did I feel like I was 'missing out'? No.

Does that mean everyone is required to hold to your personal standard and other people can't disagree?

No.

:

There is easy, accessible modes and perfectly challenging hard modes. ToC was a failure for easy modes, but Ulduar was more or less properly tuned. ICC, from the PTR, looks to be as well. So long as the easy mode is "accessible" but not faceroll, it's fine.

Ulduar was successful. Naxx and ToC were not. Instead of claiming that the model is faulty, why not just accept that maybe they could tune the easy modes up to not be overly simple? It doesn't mean they need to axe the easy/hard mode dynamic altogether.