3.3 Poison Changes FAQ

[Lugo Moll]

Another thing you could add: From what I've seen on the current spreadsheets, both expertise and hit below the poison cap does now have very high EP, and will probably be worth capping via gems.

This is for both combat and mutilate.

[dekanen]

I've not seen any discussion about fast/fast yet, so I'll research that a bit before adding it to the guide unless you want to point me in the right direction. The first point about the combat spec is good though, I'll get on that as well. Thank you!

It can easily be documented through simulationcraft.
Furthermore see the following posts:
http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t51449-r...6/#post1415730
http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t51449-r...5/#post1409876

It comes down to the combination of Focussed Attacks and a non-PPM poison outperforming higher Mutilates due to the lack of Opportunity.

[Stixxz]

Some mutilate info:

The best spec appears to be 51/18/2 (Yes, RS and not Opportunity in the sub tree.)

Gemming leans towards 40 ap in red sockets and 20 ap/10 haste in yellow.

Why AP and not Agility?

[Annoying]

Why AP and not Agility?

Read the second EJ post right above yours?

EP:
AP: 1.00
Agi: 1.97.

40ap = 40 EP
20agi = 39.4EP.

[Stixxz]

Read the second EJ post right above yours?

EP:
AP: 1.00
Agi: 1.97.

40ap = 40 EP
20agi = 39.4EP.

I'd rather have crit+ap than just ap.

[GenesisHell]

I just tried the new build without using rupture on the PTR and I'm doing a lot less DPS than when using 3.2's standard build with rupture. With the standard build + rupture I was doing about 5.2K unbuffed but with the new build without rupture I'm only pulling like 4500 give or take a few hundred. Am I doing it wrong?

This is as mutilate btw

[dekanen]

I'd rather have crit+ap than just ap.

No, you don't.
Agility will yield less dps and chances are you'll end up critcapping.

[Javanface]

I'd rather have crit+ap than just ap.

As Dekanen said, in 3.3 you don't want to gem agility because it is in fact worse than AP for several reasons.

1. 3.3 gear levels indicate that we will be close to crit capping, hence extra crit from agility may be useless.
2. AP increases poison damage which is better than Agility in synergy with the Vile Poisons and Improved Poisons talents as well as the Envenom buff.
3. Agility does not affect poison crit.

As always, refer to a spreadsheet for better estimates regarding your specific character's gear setup.

[Javanface]

It can easily be documented through simulationcraft.
Furthermore see the following posts:
http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t51449-r...6/#post1415730
http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t51449-r...5/#post1409876

It comes down to the combination of Focussed Attacks and a non-PPM poison outperforming higher Mutilates due to the lack of Opportunity.

I've read the posts but it seems the discussion is geared towards Focused Attacks' importance when weapon swapping rather than in 3.3. However, it would appear that there is some sort of cross-over point where we have enough haste to make a 1.4 speed weapon proc FA enough to make it counter the loss of dps from weaker mutilates; probably more so now with the loss of opportunity as you said. I'm sure we'll see if this is the case once we have full gear lists. Until then however, I am slightly reserved towards adding this to a generalized compilation intended to help people find basic information on what to do when 3.3 hits.

[Coldkil]

great post it sums up nicely all the research about the 3.3 changes.

i expact anyway a nerf for mutilate, since it seems pulling too much ahead of combat. most predictable thing is the return of improved poisons from the buffed 20% to the current 10%.

[martinkaca]

So I read through this and still have a question. For combat with the 20/51/0 spec with soft capped arm penn, I will be using IP/DP Slow/Fast and then standard Evis cycle. What about envenom and will combat also be gemming ap and ap/haste?

[sabrelime]

ATTENTION for all those who do not own Microsoft excel and can't use mavanas's spreadsheet Microsoft has released a beta of the new office so you can pick it up and use it to calculate the dps you should be doing now and next patch.(mutilate)

[Voij]

So I read through this and still have a question. For combat with the 20/51/0 spec with soft capped arm penn, I will be using IP/DP Slow/Fast and then standard Evis cycle. What about envenom and will combat also be gemming ap and ap/haste?

Unlikely.

[As far as I can tell/remember, Eviscerate and Envenom do roughly equal damage with the 20/51/0 spec, so I'll leave those figures aside. Could be wrong with that though.]

Using Envenom:
Pro:
- Increased Procchance on IP/DP

Con:
- Need to restack DP
- Restacking DP means that you'll miss out on IP-procs from the offhand

You'll miss out on a lot of DP-damage, about 1-2k, and roughly 5 IP-procs from your offhand. In exchange you're gonna have about 3.5 instead of 2 IP-procs from your mainhand. [Due to the Envenombuff]

So no, I highly doubt that using Envenom will result in a dmg-increase...

[dekanen]

I've read the posts but it seems the discussion is geared towards Focused Attacks' importance when weapon swapping rather than in 3.3.

I'm sorry, I wasn't clear enough in my first post.

You're correct noticing the loss of white swings due to weaponswapping won't be skewing the result in favor of fast/fast in 3.3.
HOWEVER, the damage difference is small enough that you're likely to see fast/fast be better than slow/fast if there's a difference in ilvl. As such, if you happen to loot 2 fast daggers of a tier higher than what you currently have, it'll be superior to use those instead of what you have. In this situation it's worth noticing poisons should be swapped around.

As for combat; you shouldn't use Envenom in 3.3 and you should gem for Arp. Unlike Mutilate, a significant portion of your damage still comes from physical attacks. Chances are you'll be using 20 Arp in red sockets and either 10agi 10 haste or 10agi 10 hit in yellow sockets. The latter should be used if you're near the crit cap for autoattacks.

[boneschaman]

"How will I spec in 3.3?"

The best combat spec will most likely be something like 20/51/0 so you will be using IP for combat anyway.
This is because, with the added buff, improved poisons will ensure deadly poison does not drop off your target anymore, and will get back to full faster. Also, Poisons will become a larger portion of your total damage, hence vile poisons 7% poison damage will do more than lethality 6% which would only affect your sinister strike. (credit to bbr for thinking of this).

the spec looks rupture free, what happens if I don't have enough arp, means softcap+trinket.
spec blood splatter and use rupture or play rupture free no matter what gear. atm I've got medicore ~ilvl232 average gear

[Taotaisei]

I think the links for the talent builds for Hard and Soft capping ArPen are dead.

[Zillok]

As for combat; you shouldn't use Envenom in 3.3 and you should gem for Arp. Unlike Mutilate, a significant portion of your damage still comes from physical attacks. Chances are you'll be using 20 Arp in red sockets and either 10agi 10 haste or 10agi 10 hit in yellow sockets. The latter should be used if you're near the crit cap for autoattacks.

I'm a bit confused by this statement because Aldriana's newest combat spreadsheet shows a higher EP value for 40ap and 20ap/10haste gems than it does for arp or agi. I'm able to gem to the softcap with Runestone, but i'm still seeing higher spreadsheet dps with ap/haste gems. Why do you say that arp should still be used if the hardcap is unreachable?

[Javanface]

I think the links for the talent builds for Hard and Soft capping ArPen are dead.

Sorry! must have forgot to add them. I'll get on that later today, as well as answering some other questions here.

[dekanen]

Why do you say that arp should still be used if the hardcap is unreachable?

Because, as always, there are exceptions to generalized rules.
If the spreadsheets shows AP and AP/haste as the superior gem choice, you should use those. It will largely depend on your current hit and haste rating - hit and haste will favor poison damage relatively more than say special attacks, which causes stats that boost poisons to gain in relative value - these stats happens to be AP and haste.
It's worth noticing that while T9 gear has alot of hit, T10 doesn't and this will affect your gem choices. Hence the generalized (but not universal) advice.

[Whackojacko]

Except, you should be poisons hit capped minimum, expertise capped and behind the target anyway, I don't get it.

Is the EP value of expertise really high enough for it to be worth gemming over attack power if the gear you have give very little expertise? My expertise is extremely low and I would need to use ten red sockets to get anywhere close to capped for mutilate spec. For optimal dps should I pursue this route or simply gem AP and pick up quick recovery to compensate?