Mp5 loot should go to healers first... fallacy?

[Shaefaerie]

OMG TEH HAELER TOOKED MY WAEPONZ!!!

No, just no. Even if you don't need hit, which is entirely possible, then there is still a better weapon that is itemized for you. There are plenty of staffs/one hands/offhand that have spell power, crit/haste, and that's all. Let the healer have it and wait for the better item to go to you. No It doesn't have any more mp5 on it then the previous weapon but it can at least be used for the healer. Stop being a greedy dps.

[Chitzu]

OMG WHY SHOULD A TANK GET A WEAPON WITH 212 DPS JSUT COS IT HAS DEFENSE ON IT.....

Seriously tho, u fail if u use mp5 as dps

You mr, fails horribly.

First of all, there's currently no Tanking weapon that would be Best in slot for a melee DPS, or any kind of DPS.

Regarding the MP5, i will give you an example; Go look at Elemental Shamans T7, what do you see on our Gloves? Yes, that's right... there's MP5 on our gloves, do we fail cause we use it? no, cause it's how Blizzard designed the game for some reason.

If Blizzard decide to screw us all over my giving us MP5 on our Best in slot pieces, then it's their fault for not make another ring or w/e with equal stats, and maybe crit or haste instead of that MP5, Best in slot is Best in slot, no mather if it's Cloth, leather or mail, but Regarding the Cloth and Leather, there the classes that only can use those, they obviously got priority over a Shaman and whatnot, but Weapons, Shields, Rings etc.. doesn't mather if it's MP5 on it, as long as the other stats benefits you more then what any other piece would do.

So no, MP5 isn't an obvious point to say that a healer got priority, take Circle of the Darkmender (heroic version) for example, it's Best in slot for: Warlocks, Mages, Elemental shamans and Shadow priests (as far as it goes for Spell caster DPS)

and FYI, the Spelldmg dagger from TOC10 heroic Faction Champions, it's SP, Haste and crit on it.. and guess what? Healers roll on it cause it's awesome for them too... use common sense...

[Astray]

Yes, I think that Hunters should pass melee weapons... if the melee classes get more weapon DPS from it.

Hypothetical situation. A Rogue is using a 1 hander with 40 hit, 80ap, 40 crit rating and 178 DPS. A new weapon drops with 40 haste, 80ap, 40 crit and 178 DPS. Rogue is hitcapped so s/he wants it... should a hunter be allowed to roll?

The hards thing is not convincing the hunters not to roll. Its to convince them to use 1-handers in thew first place because hunters like those big 2-hand weapons.

The average raid has 3 people who would like the 2-hand weapon as well.
1 Hunter and 1 rogue.

The average raidboss dropps a 1H-Sword, a 1H-Mace, 1H-Axe, 2 daggers, a feral staff and maybe~ a 2H-Weapon with AP on it.

This results in people rolling need for the 2 hand weapon months after the raid came and and disenchanting the first 1H-Weapon starts in week 2.

[Healtuff]

I don't roll on hit first, you don't roll on mp5 first.

/thread

[Exera]

Any DPS with half a brain wouldn't roll on this in the first place, especially not if a healer wanted it. I would rather have a 100 less SP then see a healer miss out on a great upgrade.

It's called being a loot whore.

[Deleted]

mp5 ring from Lord J is BiS for Arcane Mage apparently ;D

But the thing is, would you let a healer roll on a hit dagger (Sword, mace, w/e) that is an upgrade for you?

Also, whoever said Mp5 for Shamas, Paladins > Priests, Druids, don't forget Disc Priests : (

Hit is completely wasted for healers. At least in PvE. They don't need it at all while mp/5 isn't for DPS. It has much lower value than DPS stats but it isn't useless.
For a lot of casters, going OOM is still an issue, same as for the healers, especially when using the mana burning rotations for higher DPS.

It should go to the highest roller if the ML wants to be fair, instead of guessing who needs it more.

[Balance]

So the DPS shouldn't get the item because the stat is mostly wasted, even if its a clear upgrade? Don't make sense to me at all, in the example both the healer and dps gain 100sp.

The dps shouldnt get the upgrade because it is an upgrade that benefits the healer more. The dps should get an item that is itemized correctly for caster DPS.

[Azyoulike]

Hit is completely wasted for healers. At least in PvE. They don't need it at all while mp/5 isn't for DPS. It has much lower value than DPS stats but it isn't useless.

Incorrect actually for a number of reasons.

First healers such as priests & shammies will often dps during nuke phases, or low damage phases. A random anub-heroic parse from wowmeteronline showed the priest doing about 10% of the damage done of one of the lower dps.

Second debuff removal in some cases requires a small amount of hit. This was famously annoying on steelbreaker, where a resisted dispel could result in a dead tank. GC acknowledged the problem for priests existed and hopefully they won't do it again, but they have done it this expansion.

Third - many dps specs have no way to convert excess regen into more dps. For them additional mana has zero dps returns.

Fourth - sometimes healers actually do a bit of CC. I've seen tree druids being asked to sleep freya trash for example.

Hit has very low value for healers, but not zero. MP5 has very low value for dps, but not zero.

The analogy is pretty much exact.

[Simca]

You mr, fails horribly.

First of all, there's currently no Tanking weapon that would be Best in slot for a melee DPS, or any kind of DPS.

Regarding the MP5, i will give you an example; Go look at Elemental Shamans T7, what do you see on our Gloves? Yes, that's right... there's MP5 on our gloves, do we fail cause we use it? no, cause it's how Blizzard designed the game for some reason.

If Blizzard decide to screw us all over my giving us MP5 on our Best in slot pieces, then it's their fault for not make another ring or w/e with equal stats, and maybe crit or haste instead of that MP5, Best in slot is Best in slot, no mather if it's Cloth, leather or mail, but Regarding the Cloth and Leather, there the classes that only can use those, they obviously got priority over a Shaman and whatnot, but Weapons, Shields, Rings etc.. doesn't mather if it's MP5 on it, as long as the other stats benefits you more then what any other piece would do.

So no, MP5 isn't an obvious point to say that a healer got priority, take Circle of the Darkmender (heroic version) for example, it's Best in slot for: Warlocks, Mages, Elemental shamans and Shadow priests (as far as it goes for Spell caster DPS)

and FYI, the Spelldmg dagger from TOC10 heroic Faction Champions, it's SP, Haste and crit on it.. and guess what? Healers roll on it cause it's awesome for them too... use common sense...

This thread has nothing to do with best-in-slot pieces for the most part. I'm pretty sure most people realize that BiS pieces can be badly itemized from time to time. You still shouldn't get your BiS piece first over somebody else if it is a bigger upgrade for their class and they raid just as regularly as you. I don't care that circle of the darkmender is BiS for DPS. It's better for healers. You can get it after the healers.

[Gathami-Ettrig]

Time and time again a loot I can use drops and it has some spirit or mp5 and they say I can't take it because I'm not a healer. Well hell I'm well over capped inky stats, it's upgrade....why not??!??

[Azyoulike]

This thread has nothing to do with best-in-slot pieces for the most part. I'm pretty sure most people realize that BiS pieces can be badly itemized from time to time.

The guy you're replying to is an elly shammy though, and they don't have badly itemized BiS 'from time to time', they've had it the entire of Wrath. Elly shammies are the only dps spec where the MP5 rule breaks down, because they've had it forced down their throats on armour, on weapons and on accessories since Naxx.

Time and time again a loot I can use drops and it has some spirit or mp5 and they say I can't take it because I'm not a healer. Well hell I'm well over capped inky stats, it's upgrade....why not??!??

spirit isn't a healer priority stat anymore, hasn't been for ages - assuming you're not an elly shammy there's no reason for you not to roll on spirit gear. If you're not being allowed to roll on spirit gear as a warlock say, or a mage then you need to reeducate your RLer.

[mutantboy]

I don't care about all these semantics. I just know one thing: back in January the bunch of loot whores I ran with had the same view as the OP. So we killed KT and Torch of Holy fire dropped. The raid leader gave it to a s/priest cos it would make his DPS better.

I would have been 3rd in line so no biggie to me. But the Shaman who really struggled with Mana issues back then was pissed and G/quit. His mate the Druid - our best healer followed. 2x DPS - also his mates - g/quit. The S/priest who I disliked intensly started ranting at me asking if i was going as well cos i was probably an idiot like them blah blah... So i said yes OK and quit as well.

You know sometimes your healers take this stuff seriously. If they do then you have to go throught he pita process of replacing them. Cos like it or no MP5 is a healer stat.

[ThunderBear]

Mp5 to a healer before a dps.

Mp5 to a DPS before a shard.

That is how it has always worked in my guild.

Caster DPS may not agree with this full heatedly. If you were to change that Mp5 into hit rating, casters would get awfully upset if healers were taking it over them. Certain items are ideal for certain classes. You don't like seeing pallies rolling on spirit wpns, and healers don't like seeing DPS roll on Mp5.

It really boils down to a question of respect. When this happens in an environment of guildies who have been together for months/years there is no question. The healer gets the Mp5 wpns first. If you don't know//respect who you are raiding with you tend to worry more about you rather than what is good for the guild//raid. Stop being selfish, by now you know what wpns are itemized for your class.

It would be similar to a hunter rolling on a 2h strength wpn and wanting it over a warrior/pally/dk. The item might be better than what the hunter is using, but it was not made for his class. It maximizes utility with other classes.

The strength--> Hunter may not be the best comparison.

If you flip it around, a weapon that is loaded with Attack Power and agility, should go to a hunter/druid before a warrior/retadin/dk. DK tanks aside (depends on the stats of the wpn). Yes, the wpn may be an upgrade and have stats that are in someway useful to a War/Ret/DK, but the wpn maximizes utility on a hunter/druid.

Such as Betrayer of Humanity?

[bigjenk]

actually, http://www.wowhead.com/?item=47478 are bis-discpriest-trousers and i wear them in my discoffspec. i would like to have mp5 instead of hit, but there isn't any item with that stats. you can now slap me, if you want

Actually the jaraxus 25 heroic ones are unless you spam every global gem no int and have one sec globals without borrowed time up. Haste is always a better stat for healers disc has sharp dr on crit as well past 40 percent raid buffed as da is just overwriting itself.

[FamilyGoat]

Following your logic a Hunter should take two handers from warriors/paladins, axes/swords/daggers from shaman and rogues.

Because weapons are just stat sticks right?

Hunters that aren't total douchebags will pass on the previous and rogues/warriors will pass on bows/guns/crossbows- if they aren't.. like I said.. douchebags.

Forgive the vulgarity, but it accentuates my point.

A better comparison would be a hunter rolling on a strength item over a warrior/dk/ret (as strength does nothing/next to nothing for you, while the weapons in your example were straight up upgrades for both you and the melee class) or an item with expertise over any melee.

Read first 3 pages, then stoped. My view on this is it depends on what else is available. Take naxx for example. Best caster weapon (for those that couldn't use swords) was torch, spell/haste/mp5. Should dps need to wait till every healer gets this before they do and be forced to use a weapon with 100 less spell power? I don't think so (shaman here, so I get funny looks when staffs drop which are an upgrade). Currently, the only rings no-spirit casters can get is 1 10 man ring, and the other will either have mp5 or spirit, both of which are wasted on me. Should you have to wait til EVERYONE else gets them (spirit casters on spirit ring, healers on mp5 ring). I don't think so, more so since the lowest healers get on mana for any fight is about 40%. (Unfortunatly my guild thinks otherwise and Ive been running with the Kirin Tor (?) ring and the 10 man ring which finally droped, and I'll likely only get to upgrade them once ICC comes out). Sadly, once again I won't be upgrading my weapon for a very long while, since every caster weapon is a staff, or has Mp5/spirit/some healer proc.

Now, if you are trying to get a weapon with mp5 on it, both you and a healer want it, but their is another equivalent or better option for you, then let them have it (so long as the next weapon goes to you, assuming its just you two going in on it).

The guy you're replying to is an elly shammy though, and they don't have badly itemized BiS 'from time to time', they've had it the entire of Wrath. Elly shammies are the only dps spec where the MP5 rule breaks down, because they've had it forced down their throats on armour, on weapons and on accessories since Naxx.

TY. At least someone knows how screwed shamans get with itemization. Not asking we have perfect stats, but when 80% MAIL items are found in a raid that have Mp5 (a stat most resto shamans don't want either btw), it makes you wonder wtf blizzard is thinking. (Please don't come back to be with exact figures of how many mp5/nonmp5 items actually exist in toc, I know its not 80%, but I'm excluding items that share a tier slot, since tier>reg gear 9/10 so look at bracers/belt/boots...)

[Azyoulike]

Actually the jaraxus 25 heroic ones are unless you spam every global gem no int and have one sec globals without borrowed time up. Haste is always a better stat for healers disc has sharp dr on crit as well past 40 percent raid buffed as da is just overwriting itself.

Wrong. DA can self-stack up to a 10k shield (at L80). This was introduced in 3.1, and as a result DA-overwriting is no longer an issue. Haste versus Crit for disc priests doesn't have a simple answer, some priests choose to stack crit, some choose to stack haste and some go with a balance. It's very dependent on your healing style.

I'm not saying I'd take those +hit trousers, but I can understand a disc priest choosing to.

[Ardourdan]

Any DPS with half a brain wouldn't roll on this in the first place, especially not if a healer wanted it. I would rather have a 100 less SP then see a healer miss out on a great upgrade.

It's called being a loot whore.

Sorry, but you are wrong. Healer's don't scale as well from gear as DPS does. Skilled DPS depends on gear and skilled healers depend on their skill. Is it so difficult to ignore the mp5 and let a DPS roll on it? No it isn't.

The same can be said to idiot tards that don't allow Boonkins or Shamans to roll on cloth. Ranged casters don't need armor.

An upgrade is an upgrade. Tank gear > DPS gear > Healers gear.

[ThunderBear]

Sorry, but you are wrong. Healer's don't scale as well from gear as DPS does. Skilled DPS depends on gear and skilled healers depend on their skill. Is it so difficult to ignore the mp5 and let a DPS roll on it? No it isn't.

The same can be said to idiot tards that don't allow Boonkins or Shamans to roll on cloth. Ranged casters don't need armor.

An upgrade is an upgrade. Tank gear > DPS gear > Healers gear.

I agree. I would let Shamans and Druids roll on cloth ... if no cloth user wants it.

[Azyoulike]

Sorry, but you are wrong. Healer's don't scale as well from gear as DPS does. Skilled DPS depends on gear and skilled healers depend on their skill. Is it so difficult to ignore the mp5 and let a DPS roll on it? No it isn't.

Everybody scales better with skill than with gear. Giving great gear to an idiot will result in poor dps, poor healing or poor tanking depending on his role.

Likewise everybody scales with gear, a really good healer will be an even better healer with better gear. More mana means he can spam harder, more haste means he can spam faster, more crit/SP means his throughtput just goes up naturally.

Healers mostly gain less from crit than DPS, but then they gain more from regen, so it balances out.

Just because you have a well geared healing off-spec that you play poorly doesn't diminish the importance of gear for healers who play well.

[Alandris]

yeah right thx to the majority of you the beautiful ring on jarasuxx went to a freakin healadin who had already loot and was all in pvp with a spirit trinket and when i asked the rl guess what ??

that's a healer's ring


angry mage